Trying to connect the dots on my #19's history

[AtTheRange]

I'm posting this here because I don't see a general topic forum for the question I'm going to ask.
My #19 was passed to me by my late friend. He said he bought it in the 80s from a retired LEO who "wanted to take his personal protection in a different direction." This LEO retired from a small municipality in north St Louis County.
I just got my letter from the S&W Historical Foundation. My #19 was shipped on 7/21/1959 to a sporting goods store in Philadelphia, PA. It was part of a 6-gun shipment and my gun was the only #19 in the order. It was billed at $61.47. Each of the six revolvers was marked 'Various Police Depts'.
OK, that fits as the gun has considerable holster wear on the finish. But that left me wondering how it got from Philly to STL? I'm not familiar with police dept policies regarding officer side arms and my gun has no stamping that says it was property of a police dept.
I'm thinking the LEO started his carrier in Philly and ended it in STL. Would he have been responsible for owning his own firearm and as such, be allowed to take it from one job to the next?

 

[robertrwalsh]

Some departments (notably NYC) require that the officer supply his own weapon. Some departments mandate only department weapons be carried. Some departments issue weapons but let you carry your own if it meets department specs. Not all PD guns are marked. Your surmise is reasonable and may very well be correct. Good hunting on your info search.

 

[Absalom]

….. But that left me wondering how it got from Philly to STL? I'm not familiar with police dept policies regarding officer side arms and my gun has no stamping that says it was property of a police dept.
I'm thinking the LEO started his carrier in Philly and ended it in STL. Would he have been responsible for owning his own firearm and as such, be allowed to take it from one job to the next?

Yes. Especially since you say "small municipality".

It was very common for departments to require officers to purchase their own guns. The smaller the force, the more likely. Some departments had no rules, others had an approved list or certain criteria. Yet others, usually large ones (like NYPD), actually bought guns from the factory in bulk and sold them to trainees.

It was also common to see departments sell their gun to retiring officers. And someone taking his pension after the required 20 years may move across the country and take another job, taking the option to keep his gun.

So there are lots of possibilities how your gun's story played out.

 

[mh51]

I hope you aren't going to lay awake wondering. In those days, many departments required officers to furnish their own gear, and guns could be freely traded or sold. That gun may have changed hands a dozen times before you became the owner.

 

[Major 2]

Tracking history & provenance of a piece is 1/2 the pleasure of acquiring it IMHO....
I have two known police firearms , one is my 1919 Colt Police Positive.
It belonged to William Stackhouse of the Cincinnati Motorcycle Patrol
this photo wearing the revolver was taken circa 1930. I have the Bauer Brother's duty holster holster too. The set was acquired from Officer Stackhouse's nephew who himself is a retired Kissimmee Police Chaplin.

The second is this Austrian Police Steyr 08-34 it was surrendered
in Salzburg 1945 when the US Army occupied the sector.
Later under denazification, some of the former Austrian police were rearmed with 38 revolvers.
This Steyr came home with its holster, over the 70 years the holster was deteriorated beyond use, I decide to make this copy.

 

[Absalom]

One can indeed get lucky on police provenance, and with a bit of research reconstruct the likely story. A couple of examples:

My Colt Police Positive 38 was shipped in December 1915 to Frank Audley's shop (of safety holster fame), located right behind NYPD headquarters. It was acquired by officer William L Kavanagh, shield # 2276, both conveniently engraved/stamped on the gun. So it served in New York during the most interesting of times in the 1920s. The latest mention I've found was of a Detective William L. Kavanagh in Queens in 1936, which fits the timeline if he started out in 1915/16.
How it ended up in the pawnshop in Alabama which put it on GB will have to remain a mystery.

The Model 10-6 is more straightforward. I will leave out the name because it's recent. I lettered it, and based on the serial R.M. Vivas got me the rest of the info on the gun: Shipped to NYPD Equipment Bureau in June 1968, shipped back to the factory for repairs, then sold to a probationary patrolman in January 1969. With name and date, I found a loquacious online obituary that provided more: The gun served for the next 20 years on patrol, 18 years in the 70th Precinct in Brooklyn and then 2 years in the 123rd on Staten Island, retiring in 1989. That's also where the officer lived. His heirs apparently didn't want to keep his gun, so a few months after his passing in late 2013, a gun shop near his home put the gun on GB, where I bought it (not yet knowing any of this).

 

[Frieda's Boss]

One can indeed get lucky on police provenance, and with a bit of research reconstruct the likely story. A couple of examples:

My Colt Police Positive 38 was shipped in December 1915 to Frank Audley's shop (of safety holster fame), located right behind NYPD headquarters. It was acquired by officer William L Kavanagh, shield # 2276, both conveniently engraved/stamped on the gun. So it served in New York during the most interesting of times in the 1920s. The latest mention I've found was of a Detective William L. Kavanagh in Queens in 1936, which fits the timeline if he started out in 1915/16.
How it ended up in the pawnshop in Alabama which put it on GB will have to remain a mystery.

The Model 10-6 is more straightforward. I will leave out the name because it's recent. I lettered it, and based on the serial R.M. Vivas got me the rest of the info on the gun: Shipped to NYPD Equipment Bureau in June 1968, shipped back to the factory for repairs, then sold to a probationary patrolman in January 1969. With name and date, I found a loquacious online obituary that provided more: The gun served for the next 20 years on patrol, 18 years in the 70th Precinct in Brooklyn and then 2 years in the 123rd on Staten Island, retiring in 1989. That's also where the officer lived. His heirs apparently didn't want to keep his gun, so a few months after his passing in late 2013, a gun shop near his home put the gun on GB, where I bought it (not yet knowing any of this).

That is really cool to know so much of the story, and for the gun to have been used for so much of its life.

So far, my only used gun is an inherited 38 Single Action 2nd model, from 1889. It was my great uncle's, who worked for the phone company in a small low country S.C. town, and none of us knew he had any guns until cleaning his house after he & my great aunt were gone. His parents were farmers, so we assume it was his dad's gun. It lettered as shipping to a store in St. Louis(Meacham Arms). I'd love to know more about its life from 1889 in St Louis until it came into my family's hands in South Carolina.

 

[Major 2]

That is very cool , wonder how it got to that Pawn Shop ?

pawncop PM'ed me telling about his Police Positive circa 1919.
He felt he'd hijack this thread , I don't think it would ???

But if I'm wrong I'm sorry

I have another lettered Colt, a Commando that was one of 4 purchased by the then Hood Rubber Manufacture ( then a division of BF Goodrich ) in 1945. It was carried by armed security for a war time contractor. What is particularly interesting it is in range of the last 50 Colt Commando made.

 

[pawncop]

I have a Colt Police Positive in .38 New Police. It has Detroit P. D. stamped on the back strap and an inventory control number on the butt plate. It has a four inch barrel, it is nickel plated.

I sure wish it could tell the stories I know it was involved in.

 

[James K]

This LEO retired from a small municipality in north St Louis County.

Interested if you knew which small municipality in North St. Louis because I was born in the infamous Ferguson in 1958.

 

[mikerjf]

Minor drift... last weeks episode of "The Rookie" featured an officer who finally saw it was time to retire. While everyone else on the show uses Glocks, I'd swear at the retirement party he had a K-frame with Magnas in his holster! Nice touch...

 

[AtTheRange]

Yes, I 'do' know.

This LEO retired from a small municipality in north St Louis County.

Interested if you knew which small municipality in North St. Louis because I was born in the infamous Ferguson in 1958.

I guess it doesn't matter if I mention the names. After all, it was 30-40 years ago that my friend bought the gun. From the 80's to when he died in 2020 my friend just kept it wrapped in a gun sock and stored it.
The LEO retired from Vinita Park and my friend lived right next door in Hanley Hills.

 

[James K]

Thanks

Not real familiar with that area. A little south of the airport off 170. Driven through it many years ago.