U.S. Army "Altered the Schofields"

[BMur]

I took the time to mic some 45 Schofield bores in my collection and they actually mic much smaller than the typical .454-.455 Groove diameter of the early Military Colt's 45.

The average Groove diameter of the Original U.S. Army issued Schofield .45 is .449-.450. Which simply put means they were NOT compatible.

The U.S. Army is documented in letters from the Armory to the Arsenal as "Altering" the Schofield cylinder chambers to chamber a common cartridge for both the Colt's SAA and the Smith & Wesson Schofield Revolver.

The only way to accomplish this was to grossly oversize the chambers of the Schofields to chamber the same cartridge diameter as the Colt's "AND" manufacture a hollow base inside lubricated bullet to function in both revolvers.

This authentic dug up hollow base bullet seen in the below photo's is "NOT" a Schofield round as I originally thought. It is the "dual purpose" round for both guns. That was actually and documented as being introduced in 1875 with an order to manufacture 1 million of these custom .45 caliber cartridges.

It's amazing really that when sent to Surplus in early 1880 the guns were already Armory altered. So, commercially sold Schofields that never went to the U.S. Army would not have the same chamber diameter as the Altered U.S. Schofields. Therefore, many of the Surplus Arsenal rounds must have been sold to surplus as well so the guns could be serviceable. Those would include the Wells Fargo and American Express examples. This would also be a solid method to prove without question that you have either a Civilian sold gun or a U.S. Army "Altered" Schofield.

It's also possible that the Civilian sold Schofields were later altered by the owner simply because the original rounds would be very difficult to find. That's also likely why they are literally impossible to find today.

What a mess that must have been for Commercially sold owners of original Schofields. Having smaller chambers, the military rounds would not fit or function in them and the opposite would also be true. Original Schofield rounds would not fit or function in the U.S. Altered Schofield revolvers...The chambers being grossly oversized.


Murph

 

[444 Magnum]

Hey Murph,
I can't speak with as much depth as you did about the Schofield, but the army also altered the Springfield 1873 cartridge. An early 1873 (I have a low 5 digit 1873 carbine) has a shorter .45-70 chamber than the later rifles and carbine of the same caliber. So, if you have an early 1873, later .45-70 cartridges will not chamber all the way. Not sure if this had something to do with bullet design or what. I think that's why nearly all of the early guns have been arsenal reworked to accommodate that and other changes. My carbine (not re-worked) will not chamber any .45-70's that I have. Just army rationale at the time, I guess. Interesting fact about the Schofields, I was not aware of that.

Steve

 

[BMur]

Springfield

That's very interesting Steve,

Lot's of early history to the Springfield. The little bighorn comes to mind. I know they had problems early on with the earlier guns and "ejecting issues" but no idea that they altered those chambers as well. Thanks for sharing.

Murph

 

[jimmyj]

IIRC (?) the M1873 Carbines (Cavalry) took a 45/60 cartridge and the M1873 Rifles took a 45/70 cartridge. Were the cartridge cases the same length ?

 

[DWalt]

IIRC (?) the M1873 Carbines (Cavalry) took a 45/60 cartridge and the M1873 Rifles took a 45/70 cartridge. Were the cartridge cases the same length ?

The earliest .45 Springfield cartridge was a .45-70 with a 405 grain bullet for use in both rifles and carbines. Later, the carbine load was reduced to 55 grains, keeping the 405 grain bullet. Even later, the rifle cartridge bullet weight was increased to 500 grains. The case length was always 2.1" (except for the Sharpshooter cartridge, not general issue, which had a 2.4" case length).

The early .45 Schofield-length (1.11" case) revolver cartridges used 0.450" bullets. All were made at Frankford Arsenal.

Hackley, Woodin and Scranton's book, "History of Modern U. S. Military Small Arms Ammunition" is considered the authoritative source for such information.

 

[Patbar]

BMur, are these the dual purpose rounds you are writing about ?

They are Bennett primed, which means that the primer is inside the case so that, although being central fire, they look like rim fire cartridges.

 

[Giorgio Italy]

Hi,
Honestly I still don't understand how it is possible that S&W used that size for the barrel and cylinder, since it was building a gun specifically for the government. This thing just is not clear to me. There was evidently, as we know, a compatibility problem with the .45 already supplied, but it concerned the length of the cartridge. So why not adopt the same bore as Colt? Why Ordnance accepted this strange behavior from S&W?
Giorgio

 

[BMur]

Dual purpose cartridg

BMur, are these the dual purpose rounds you are writing about ?

They are Bennett primed, which means that the primer is inside the case so that, although being central fire, they look like rim fire cartridges.

Hi Patbar,
The photo you presented is actually not a Schofield cartridge, nor is it a Colt Cartridge. It is the "Dual purpose" cartridge that this thread is based on. Notice on the label from Frankford Arsenal? It says only "45 cartridge"?

It is the early "modified hollow based dual purpose round". We can not at this point separate the Colt from the Schofield....They no longer are separate from the U.S. Army stand point. They now chamber the same round!! When we apply this dual purpose round.

When exactly did the Army change to the boxer primer? I don't know but likely soon after this earlier primer design dual purpose round was introduced in 1875-6 timeframe. Likely prior to 1880. The round and hollow based lead bullets I photo'd date to 1884 and the balloon case is boxer primed.

If we also refer to Army Issue records we will note that the Schofields were NOT issued until 1876. Obviously it took a little time to convert all of those cylinder chambers to adapt to the dual purpose round. So, "ALL" the U.S. Army issued Schofields were obviously altered!

NOTE: Obviously the Frankford Arsenal still had many Colt 45 rounds in stock pile....Obviously, there were outposts that had only Colt Revolvers. So, using up the stock pile of Colt rounds would have still been an issue. Collectors seem to lean towards "absolutes often"...There are no absolutes when it comes to Surplus.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Armory Altered/machined to convert

Hi,
Honestly I still don't understand how it is possible that S&W used that size for the barrel and cylinder, since it was building a gun specifically for the government. This thing just is not clear to me. There was evidently, as we know, a compatibility problem with the .45 already supplied, but it concerned the length of the cartridge. So why not adopt the same bore as Colt? Why Ordnance accepted this strange behavior from S&W?
Giorgio

Giorgio,
You are making this more complex than it actually is. The hollow based bullet was already a well known engineered solution to filling the groove diameter of U.S. Army firearms. The mini-ball is an excellent example.
The Schofield revolver as mentioned chambered a .45 lead bullet. The simple solution was to manufacture a .45 hollow based lead bullet that would now expand when fired and fill the groove diameter .455 of the Colt's 45 and function in that revolver as well.

The problem that collectors seem to focus on was case length and ejection issues? That "WAS NOT" the problem. That was a simple solution for the Frankford arsenal since they made their own rounds. The "PROBLEM" was the chamber difference between the COLT's 45 and the SCHOFIELD was 10 thousand's of an inch different. That's a lot!! The Colt's round wouldn't even fit in the chamber of the Schofield to begin with. The diameter of the case was too big to chamber. So the length of the case and ejection issues is a made up concept. The round "wouldn't even chamber to begin with!" The only solution was to bore out the Schofield chamber to match the Colt.

You can't make a bigger hole smaller. So the Schofield was the gun that needed to be altered to match the Colt. Simple as that.

Again, this is "NOT" my opinion. It is clearly documented and the proof is in the photo that I presented of the 1884 dual purpose round. Hollow based bullet to take up the groove difference in the Colt and boring out the chambers of the Schofield to chamber the larger case that the Colt was designed for. That was the U.S. Army's solution. Clearly documented in letters to the Armory from the Arsenal and the letters date "PRIOR" to the Schofields being issued in the field.

The documented communications are not a suggestion. It's an order to do so. It's an order to modify the guns to chamber the same round and they clearly state the difference in the chambers between the guns. In addition to modifying the guns they were ordered to manufacture 1 million of these dual purpose rounds.


Murph

 

[BMur]

Dual purpose rounds

It's time to turn the page again.

Collectors are constantly identifying the Early Frankford Arsenal "Dual Purpose" rounds as "Schofield Rounds". They are not Schofield Rounds. They are "Dual Purpose Rounds" that were manufactured by the Frankford Arsenal to chamber in both the Colt's 45 and the Schofield 45 by "ALTERING" the Schofield revolvers. This alteration is also "proven" to have taken place "prior" to their issuance in the field some time in 1876...So, there are NO Schofield rounds. Only the "dual purpose rounds"...

Granted, there were a lot of Colt rounds already out in the field since the Army adopted the Colt's 45 prior to adopting the Schofield. That was an issue but issuance records of outposts that had "both" the Schofield and the Colt's revolvers would simply get issued the "dual purpose" round only! That would solve the problem. Any outposts that had only Colt's revolvers would receive surplus rounds on hand at the Arsenal.

Not a difficult problem to solve really. In time it would fix itself with just a very small amount of field training.



Murph

 

[mmaher94087]

What is the case diameter of the "Dual Purpose" round? I can't find the information in this thread. I'd like to see if my Schofields have been modified?

 

[BMur]

Case specs

Mike,
The modified round would mimic the 45 Colt so if you have a 45 Colt case handy it will fit into the modified chamber of the U.S.Army issued and inspected 45 Schofield. However, the length will be too long if it is the Commercial variation. Sometimes called the 45 Long Colt.
If you have a rare Civilian Schofield that never went to the Springfield Armory "and" was not later altered by a civilian gunsmith to except the Arsenal modified round, etc? Then the 45 Colt round " will not chamber"!!! It won't go into the original 45 Schofield undersized chamber. That would be a rare gun for sure!
Murph

 

[BMur]

Arsenal letter

I just re-read the Arsenal letter dated February 24,1875;
The Schofield chamber measures .482 and the Colt measures .492.
" Under instructions from the chief of ordinance of August 20, 1874 I am directed to suspend making colts revolver cartridges. I am directed to manufacture instead a cartridge intended for both the colt and Smith & Wesson revolver's of that caliber which 1 million are to be made. In consequence of the difference in their construction and working parts it would seem very desirable that their chambers should be nearly identical and that reasons for tapering the chambers would apply equally so as to manufacture a cartridge that will function in both revolvers."


Murph

 

[StrawHat]

I just re-read the Arsenal letter dated February 24,1875;
The Schofield chamber measures .482 and the Colt measures .492.
" Under instructions from the chief of ordinance of August 20, 1874 I am directed to suspend making colts revolver cartridges. I am directed to manufacture instead a cartridge intended for both the colt and Smith & Wesson revolver's of that caliber which 1 million are to be made. In consequence of the difference in their construction and working parts it would seem very desirable that their chambers should be nearly identical and that reasons for tapering the chambers would apply equally so as to manufacture a cartridge that will function in both revolvers."


Murph

I rarely come into this sub forum BUT when I do, I learn something. Murph, thank you for helping to expand my knowledge, even though I do not have either the revolver or any of the cartridges.

Kevin

 

[mmaher94087]

In light of your quote in post #13, it is my reading that the Armory directed the manufacture of the Schofield .45 cartridge and to cease making the Colt .45 for the Army. I see nothing about "Altering" the Schofield cylinder chambers..". Did I miss something?

 

[BMur]

Altering the chambers?

I guess you missed the part about the "chambers should be tapered to be nearly identical"?

How does one do that Mike without altering them? if their difference is 10 thousandths of an inch?

The comparison between the .38 Smith & Wesson and the . 38 special is about 6 thousandths of an inch. Try to chamber a .38 Smith & Wesson in a .38 special revolver cylinder. If you can do it Mike your a better man than I and that's only 6 thousandths difference.

10 thousandths difference? the original Schofield case would rattle in the Colt chamber causing the case to crack/bulge/ blow hot gas back at the shooter, case separation, a bullet to stick in the barrel, etc. You can also actually get a miss-fire due to the primer not centered in the chamber causing the hammer to strike off center. All these issues are bad....

Altering the Schofield chamber is a no brainer in this case. That was the order to "Taper" the chambers....that requires machining Mike....to make them "near identical". The fact that the chambers were not the same was the problem... Simply manufacturing a round would not solve the chamber problem. You have to manufacture a round that "Fits"and functions in both chambers. That was the problem.

That would require that the 45 Schofield chamber be enlarged to match the Colt since the Colt chamber was 10 thousandths larger than the original 45 Schofield.

Finally, Why would you even have to manufacture a round to begin with if the Schofield round worked in the Colt? Why? because it didn't. It was too small.


Murph

 

[Patbar]

What is the case diameter of the "Dual Purpose" round? I can't find the information in this thread. I'd like to see if my Schofields have been modified?

I just measured the diameter of one of my "dual purpose round", and the result is 0.479 inch.

I have both a Colt SAA produced in 1875 and a 2nd model Schofield, and these rounds chamber perfectly in either one. The chambers of my Schofield which has military inspection marks have a diameter of 0.480 inch while those of the Colt are 0.484.

 

[Giorgio Italy]

Ok Murph,
I knew that letter from the Chief of Ordnance that stops the production of "Colt's Revolver Cartr" (OAL 1.60 inch) but I understand that the subsequent "Revolver Ball Catr" (OAL 1.42 inch) had not been changed in the diameter of the shell but only in its length. As well as in the weight of the ball and the powder charge. (from 250 – 30 to 230 - 28) It is evident that they were custom-make by Schofield, not only in terms of cylinder length but also as a function of the greater weakness of the S&W's open chassis.
But the size of the Schofield in my opinion did not change. In a document of 1898 concerning the two weapons printed by the Government (Rules for management) the drilling diameters of the barrel and the cylinder are however different from each other. The Colt barrel has bore of .445 inch with a grooves depht of .005 inch. The barrel of the Schofield has bore of .436 inch with a grooves depht of .006 inch. The cylinder chambers of the Colt are slightly conical; .485 to 482 inch and .450 at the throat, while those of the Schofield they are almost cylindrical; .481 and .448 at the throat. So if the Ordnance in 1875 had demanded, or made, a change why should they not be the same in this document? In my opinion, Schofield came out of the factory with this size and so it remained!
Giorgio

 

[BMur]

Solid Proof

The only way to prove this without question would be to locate and measure a "Civilian Sold" Schofield...One that "never" went to the Springfield Armory.

To me the letter is clear. The guns were clearly different in 1875 and the Springfield Armory was ordered to "match the chambers between both guns"...If they were initially the same? Why were they "ordered" to match them by tapering them (machining)?

The letter to me "clearly" is an order to "match the guns" that are "clearly" different and then manufacture a round that would match both guns "AFTER" altering them to match. That's what I'm reading in the letter.


Measuring them now, after they have been altered to "as closely match as possible" is proving nothing in my opinion. You must have a gun that "never went to Springfield" and measure it against one that did go to Springfield.

Unfortunately, these Civilian guns are very rare and they also could have been later altered to match the most common cartridge out there. Early Schofield Commercial rounds are "IMPOSSIBLE" to find...Why???? Simple, because the guns were altered to chamber the dual purpose round that matched the Colt of which initially 1 million of them were made.

Smith & Wesson did not design the Schofield to "match" the Colt. NO WAY they did. The bores are clearly much different. If Smith & Wesson was told to match the colt? why didn't they match the bore as well? That was one thing that the Armory could not alter but altering the chambers to match would be a fairly simple process. Time consuming for sure but fairly simple. Then manufacturing a hollow base bullet that is also documented in both history and design to perform only one purpose...to take up a difference in bore and seal the grove diameter to function in that gun.

You can clearly see this with later guns like the 38Long colt, 41 Long colt, 45 Webley, etc....All originally outside lubricated but later manufactured with an inside lubricated hollow base bullet.

I'm not making this up...All, clearly documented.

We need to measure a "Civilian Sold Schofield" and hopefully it has not been altered to chamber the most common round available since 8 out of 9 Schofields went to the U.S. Army and were altered to match the Colt chamber. Then sold to Surplus..."Already Altered".

Again, that's why early original Schofield rounds are impossible to find. It's not hard to find early Arsenal dual purpose rounds because they made a huge number of them and likely they also went to Surplus when the Schofields did.

Also, the Hollow base bullet is "NOT" a Schofield round. The Schofield was not designed to shoot a "Hollow based bullet"...It didn't need to... Only the dual purpose round required a "Hollow based bullet". Why? because the Colt required the "Hollow based bullet" to function in the larger bore.... So, absolute fact, this is a "dual purpose round"...It's NOT a Schofield round.
That's a "clear fact".

Giorgio,
They were not ordered to "make them identical"...re-read the letter. The concept was to make them as close as possible to allow them to function using the same round. It's a government concept in the U. S. It's called "close enough for government work".
That's how the military operates. "close enough".


Murph

 

[DWalt]

When exactly did the Army change to the boxer primer? I don't know but likely soon after this earlier primer design dual purpose round was introduced in 1875-6 timeframe. Likely prior to 1880. The round and hollow based lead bullets I photo'd date to 1884 and the balloon case is boxer primed.

The book I previously mentioned (Hackley, Woodin, and Scranton) states that the .45 (Colt and S&W Schofield) cartridge began production on August 20, 1874 at Frankford Arsenal. It was un-headstamped and inside-primed, with a Copper (actually gilding metal) case. By December 1879, experimental "reloading" (Boxer-primed centerfire) .45 revolver cartridges were being manufactured at Frankford Arsenal, with 20,000 rounds made the first month. On July 3, 1882 that cartridge (or one very similar) was officially adopted as the "Model 1882 Ball Cartridge" for the .45 Revolver. It had a 230 grain bullet with a (1.11") Copper case and a 28 grain charge of black powder. The bullet is described as "having a flat nose, recessed base, and fitted with two smooth cannelures (sic - I assume this means lubricant grooves) near the base". With several other modifications subsequently made (such as switching to brass cases in 1890-91 and dropping the powder charge to 26 grains in 1901), much the same cartridge remained in production until 1909. The very latest Frankford loadings (1908) used an unspecified smokeless powder. The book provides considerably more fine detail which I will not get into. It is also silent on transition shorter .45 cartridges made up during early development and production, nor are revolver chamber modifications, nor is the term "Dual purpose" used, although it is made clear that the shorter cartridge was originally, and always intended, for use in both the Colt SAA and the S&W Schofield revolvers. It seems, at least from that source, that the .45 "Government" cartridge was never seen as anything beyond simply being a shortened case version of the original .45 Colt cartridge that could be used in the shorter cylinder of the Schofield revolver as well as the Colt SAA.

Having very little personal knowledge and experience regarding the S&W Schofield revolver, I am not qualified to comment on what modifications may or may not have been done to it during its brief military service life. But the need for performing a post-factory chamber reaming operation seems to be questionable, at least to me. My first question would be what chamber dimensions did the Army specify to S&W? Surely they must have specified something if their intent always was to use a shortened .45 Colt cartridge.