U.S. Army "Altered the Schofields"

[BMur]

Why a tapered case?

One might ask, "Why did they need to make a tapered case for a straight case chamber"?

The answer is simple. This was a dual purpose round that had to fit and function in "both chambers"...Because the chambers weren't even close to each other? The Arsenal was forced to manufacture a tapered case because if they didn't? The round would rattle around so much in the Colt that gross "miss-alignment" would be an obvious issue that would cause the firing pin to strike the primer off center. This would occur "OFTEN"...causing a miss-fire! That's really bad. Early primers weren't fans of off center strikes.

So, the solution is to taper the case at the base slightly larger to avoid the case "rattle" by closing the gap and introduce a hollow base bullet to take up the "slop" in the Colt barrel groove diameter.

This modified round would actually function well in the Schofield. It's the Colt that would suffer.



**** Makes me wonder if any of these sloppy rounds were at the Little Big Horn? I'd bet that accuracy with the modified 45 round at distances beyond 25 yards in the Colt Revolver would be horrible.


Murph

 

[Giorgio Italy]

Hi,

Murph, technically speaking are impeccable considerations. But curiosity stimulates research and I spent hours reading even what I had not yet read! These letters are deposited at the National Archives, Record Group 156, and were published in 2003 by the aforementioned C. Kenneth Moore in his "New Discoveries", a volume that integrates the monumental "Study" of 1972 by Grahm, Kopec, Moore. As you know, these books, along with Moore's other three and Kopec-Fenn's volume, are the bible for those who love Colt SAA and cannot access the archives directly. But oddly enough, there's a lot of information about Schofields that isn't found in the S&W volumes.
I have finally found the letter of February 24, 1875 cited, in which the dimensions of the chambers and the possibility of modifying them are discussed. It was written by Major T. J. Treadwell then commander at Frankford. It was addressed to Benton, National Armory:
« ... There is found on gauging the chambers of the two pistols a decided difference in diameter, viz:
s&w; rear end .483" - front end .482"
colt; rear end .492" - front end .482"
... as extraordinary care will be necessary in the manufacture of ammunition capable of being used in both these pistols, in consequence the differences in their construction and working parts, it would seem very desirable that their chambers should be nearly identical as praticable and that the reasons for tapering the chambers of the Colt would apply equally to those of the s&w pistol. you will observe that the taper of the formerly is .01 inch while that of the latteris, of any, but .001 inch.»

Probably the words ".. it would seem very desirable that .." could not be considered an order, also because the writer was a major and the one who read a lieutenant colonel ...

Giorgio

 

[Giorgio Italy]

But that's not all ...…

The most interesting thing is Benton's response two days later, February 26, which would seem to put an end to the matter:

«Your letter of Feb 24/75 is received. The difference of the rear diameters of the chambers of the Schofield Smith & Wesson & Colt's Army revolvers is a defect that could not be remedied for the following reasons, viz:
1st All Colt revolvers now in the service, amounting to many thoudand, were made & in the hands of the troop at the time the Schofield Smith & Wesson revolver was accepted for trial. No change could, therefore, be made in the rear diameter of its chamber.
2nd In the Schofield Smith & Wesson revolver the cartridge is extracted by the flange of the head, and to give a sufficient hold for the extractor it was necessary to widen this flange & the only way this could be done and preserve the interchangeability of the cartridges was to diminish the diameter of the body under the flange by .01". Before reccomending this cartridge for the two revolvers it was fairly extensively tested here and beyond noticing a slight looseness in the fit of the rear position of the cartridge no fault was found with it - not with its working in firing.
I would suggest that you make a number of cartridges according to gauges sent you and thoroughly test them in both revolvers and when yot have got them to work well in Colt's, please send to me some of the same kind of cartridges for further trial.
I think there will be no really pratical difficulty in making a cartridge that will work well in both revolvers, although the rear end of the chambers differ .01" in diameter.»

Reading these measures, it must be admitted that with our mentality they seem inconceivable approximations. But perhaps, in those days ...

Giorgio

 

[BMur]

Excellent input

Gorgio,
The details of your input are excellent. Thank you for your time and research.

Especially that last letter. I honestly think what you are inputting only supports that the guns were altered. To what degree? I don't know without having an "original" Schofield round in my hand and also having an "original" Schofield cylinder that has not been altered.

However, if we actually believe that they only milled the chambers 1 thousandth of an inch to correct the problem that "they" were responsible for? I think we are being hoodwinked by simply not reading the information that we have in hand.

The clear differences in chamber dimensions between the Colt and Schofield are documented in the two drawings that I provided.Those are modern drawings also. Especially regarding the Schofield. Just from those modern drawings a clear 5 thousandths difference is obvious (minimal). NOT 1 thousandths.
The excellent drawing of the modified 45 dual purpose round provided is pretty rock solid to me. Since it was actually drawn up by the Arsenal.

The rest is simple math.

The alteration and "tapered" cartridge would require a minimum of 4 thousands reamed out of the Schofield chamber...Not 1 thousandths as the letter suggests. Typically downplaying their screw up. The letter that suggests that the Colt's be altered is ridiculous. The Colt's didn't need to be altered....The Schofields did! The fact that there were thousands of Colt's already in the field has ZERO impact on the real problem. The gun that needed to be altered was the Schofield. NOT the colt. That is also "obvious"!

Typical ranking officer solution...."Just fix the problem and let me know when it's done"!


It was most definitely a "major error" and it took more than just a minor milling to fix the problem. You can also tell from the letter that you provided that they were having problems with the Colt shooting this modified undersized round. Which fits like a glove!

They kept tapering the case more and more until the Colt stopped mal-functioning.(miss-firing).. Who know's how much tapering they actually ended up with to center the round into the Colt chamber....I suspect a lot!

At this point in the research we have to except that this was a very obvious error and the solution to this major error was also a Bubba fix.

I would "NEVER" let a gunsmith perform this kind of a rig on one of my guns that's for sure!

"NOT to worry, we will just keep tapering it until it works, in the other gun."? Laughable!


Murph

 

[opoefc]

Just a side comment, Murf. You cited July 12, 1875, as the ship date for a 1st model Schofield in an above posting. I'm assuming you got that date from a factory letter. The factory letters are incorrect for shipping dates for 1st Model Schofields, as Roy Jinks uses the date the factory invoice billed the Army for the guns as the "ship" date, as he says the records are to flimsy for the first model to try to correctly decypher them. Therefore 1st model guns had already been inspected and shipped & arrived at Springfield Arsenal, prior to July 12, 1875.. The Archives at Springfield recorded the dates each case of 1st models arrived , so you have to look at those records if you need to know when a specific 1st model military arrived at Springfield Arsenal. It would have been prior to July 12, 1875, of course. Ed

 

[BMur]

Shipping correction

Thanks for the correction Ed,

I guess that's just more evidence that it was much too late for the U.S. Army to request that Smith & Wesson alter the Schofields to match the Colt's 45 chamber and bore. I'm very interested in what you find regarding serial number 6 that shipped to a Distributor instead of the Springfield Armory.
The alteration is now proven to have been a significant taper applied to the entry of each chamber to except the dual purpose modified 45 round. So that's where the primary difference should be seen with an unaltered commercial Schofield.


Murph

 

[Schof45]

Sorry I took so long to reply to this thread. I have measured the back cylinder bore on 6 Schofields. 3 civilian and 3 military versions. I am not an expert with calipers but I believe the results are fairly accurate. My measurements show that the bore sizes are the same for the civilian and the military version.

I am not surprised by the results as I believe that re-boring all the military Schofields would have been such a tremendous task that the Schofields historians would have known about it.

 

[Giorgio Italy]

Hi Petter,

Very interesting! Could you confirm if your measurements match those normally found in the literature? That is: rear end .483" - front end .482"? And Throat .448"/450"?
Out of curiosity - did you use an interior caliber?

Thanks

Giorgio

 

[Schof45]

I did not use an interior caliber, just a regular digital caliber.
The average measurement for the back of the cylinder bore was 0.473. I do not know how accurate the absolute measurement is but the all the readings were close and ranged from 0.472 to 0.476.

 

[Giorgio Italy]

OK,

of course it's strange. I was convinced that the "Revolver Ball Cartridge cal. 45" had a body diameter of .479"/.480". At this point I understand very little! Could any of you guys then measure one of those cartridges?

This photo is taken from an 1898 Government document "Description and Rules for the Management of the Springfield Rifle, Carbine and Army Revolvers caliber .45". The measurements are of the Schofield revolver!

Giorgio

 

[BMur]

Accurate measurements?

Giorgio,
The dynamic to taper a chamber involves a very subtle reamer that is not unlike a polishing bit. The Armory alteration was a focus on converting the Schofield chambers to chamber and fire a "DUAL PURPOSE" round that would also function in the Colt's 45 revolver...."ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION" that it is "clearly documented".... and the so-called "Historians" obviously missed that one because I've never seen the dual purpose round called anything else but a Schofield round....and it's NOT a Schofield round. It was designed for both revolvers.

The spec's you listed are very easy to understand...

The .436 bore diameter is the land diameter in the bore. Add .006 groove depth listed? You must multiply by 2 and achieve the equal groove depth related to the actual bore. So;

.436 + .006 + .006 = .448 (Groove diameter)

Rear chamber depth listed as .481-.482 would be the "Armory Altered" (reamed out) solution.

Shoulder incline is a comparison between the inlet of the chamber .482 and the outlet at the face of the cylinder .448 ( which matches the Groove diameter listed above)

The Arsenal drawing of the cartridge clearly shows a tapered round from .478 just above the head of the case and terminating at the mouth of the case at .475. That is a tapered case....NO QUESTION.

"Remember" the .475 is NOT the mouth of the chamber. The .475 is the mouth of the case so those numbers will not match. The mouth of the chamber matches the bullet diameter so there is a case stop milled into the chamber that this forum keeps calling a step....

4 points of measurement are required for every chamber and at 4 separate locations with a well made caliber in order to actually see, understand, and measure a tapered chamber.

1st location is the mouth of the chamber. 4 points
2nd location is mid-way down the chamber. 4 points
3rd location is at the "CASE STOP". 4 points
4th location is at the face of the cylinder. 4 points.

That's an accurate measurement of only 1 single chamber. Times 6.


The alteration by the Armory is proven. It's not a guess, it's not an opinion. They did "alter" the chambers of the U.S. Schofield's to chamber the "dual purpose" 45 round manufactured at the Arsenal. The Alteration was for the benefit of the Colt's 45, not the Schofield. The Colt would not reliably discharge the undersized case without the tapered case and the Schofield would NOT CHAMBER the tapered case without reaming.... "SIMPLE MATH"..

If we reference the Schofield cartridge drawing. We note a straight case of .475. STANDARD clearance would be a .479 Straight bored cylinder chamber.....That is "clearly" was is NOT listed in the old records. What is listed in the old records also matches a "Tapered chamber". That didn't magically happen all by itself. NOT without a reamer!!!


Murph

 

[Giorgio Italy]

Hi Murph,

unfortunately despite your motivations I can not convince myself of such a change without a precise written trace remaining somewhere. But maybe one day we will discover a "letter" that will explain everything!

P.S. I have a request for PATBAR member. Could you give me permission to publish this beautiful photo of you in a volume printed in Italy? It is a free publication distributed only to members (100 copies) of a non-profit cultural association that deals with the history of weapons. In the next issue there will be two articles about Schofield and Colt Artillery.
Of course these models in Italy are unobtainable!
Thank you very much

Giorgio