I should look so good if I make 103 years! What a nice revolver!
UPDATE 2nd Model HE in .455 Webley Now with pictures!
- Thread starter delcrossv
- Start date
I am curious how many Canada guns had opposing arrow stamp? I always thought it was an English thing. No inspector marks and a homemade crown do leave questions??
The gun has been touched up, maybe gone over with cold blue. The turn line on the cylinder is visible and shows a faint trench from the stop, but shows blue not steel. What does the front of the mushroom ejector rod knob look like? The only hint of a re-blue, if it was done at all, is that the cylinder is turning plum. The factory knew how to blue the cylinders to match the gun, but most gunsmiths did not. Either way, it is a nice gun, showing no abuse or modification. Do the stocks match the gun's serial number?
The big problem with these revolvers from England or Canada is that there seemed to be no rigid requirement that they all get the same number of stamps. Some guns have every chamber stamped, others had the rear of the cylinder stamped, while still others had no stamps on the cylinder. Some guns had crossed pennants and others did not. I have one that only has the small stamps on the rear of the left frame (Crown over 44 over E over II) over the stocks, nothing else. Since I and others above have never seen the Mickey Mouse stamped on another gun, I would quess that it might not be a government mark, but who would have done it? Crown over O was an inspection mark from London in earlier times. Apparently even some documented Canadian issued guns lacked the crown over 30 stamp.
Lastly, there was one other January, 1916 455 in the SWCA database and it shipped to England. Based on Hondo's ship dates to Canada, none were shipped in January '16, so it mostly likely went to England, but were any given to Canadian troops from the UK?
The gun has been touched up, maybe gone over with cold blue. The turn line on the cylinder is visible and shows a faint trench from the stop, but shows blue not steel. What does the front of the mushroom ejector rod knob look like? The only hint of a re-blue, if it was done at all, is that the cylinder is turning plum. The factory knew how to blue the cylinders to match the gun, but most gunsmiths did not. Either way, it is a nice gun, showing no abuse or modification. Do the stocks match the gun's serial number?
The big problem with these revolvers from England or Canada is that there seemed to be no rigid requirement that they all get the same number of stamps. Some guns have every chamber stamped, others had the rear of the cylinder stamped, while still others had no stamps on the cylinder. Some guns had crossed pennants and others did not. I have one that only has the small stamps on the rear of the left frame (Crown over 44 over E over II) over the stocks, nothing else. Since I and others above have never seen the Mickey Mouse stamped on another gun, I would quess that it might not be a government mark, but who would have done it? Crown over O was an inspection mark from London in earlier times. Apparently even some documented Canadian issued guns lacked the crown over 30 stamp.
Lastly, there was one other January, 1916 455 in the SWCA database and it shipped to England. Based on Hondo's ship dates to Canada, none were shipped in January '16, so it mostly likely went to England, but were any given to Canadian troops from the UK?
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OP
The color difference is a photographic artifact. It's not plum in real life. Doesn't look touched up (turn line is silver). (?)
The stocks are numbered to the gun, but the pencil marking is too faint to photograph.
The stocks are numbered to the gun, but the pencil marking is too faint to photograph.
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OP
Probably. That's my dining room table at night, the inside light is rather yellow. Also the gun was pretty dry so I put a coating of CLP on it which darkens exposed steel. Rub in/wipe off. With the gun in front of me, the cylinder, barrel and frame are the same color. (?)
I need a sunny day, but with our wonderful Midwest winter weather, that won't be until next week, maybe.
So the 'Mark of the Mouse' is an older Brit acceptance stamp?
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I have a book on British proof marks and the Crown over "O" is quite old, from the London Proof House. Your stamp is simply a mystery since there is no reference to such a stamp in any other of my proof mark publications?? There is a British stamp of a crown over an oval with letters inside the oval, but your stamp does not show any indication of that.
Jack Flash
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OP
Thanks Gary, Jim and everyone for sharing your knowledge on this. Guess this one will keep some of it's small mysteries.
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I have not seen the crown with a 0 under it. Normally its a crown with 30 under it. I still think its a Canadian marking. Looks like another variation to look out for.
I have seen a Savage made Lewis in .303 made for Canada with a crown and 24 under it. Worth getting a letter for.
Regards
Alan David
I have seen a Savage made Lewis in .303 made for Canada with a crown and 24 under it. Worth getting a letter for.
Regards
Alan David
357magster
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The plot thickens ...
My .455 Mark II 2nd model (#378xx) lettered as having shipped to the Canadian government in Ottawa on Jan 21, 1916 ... and it, too, has that same "Mickey Mouse" crown over a "O".
It was owned by a CEF officer who was killed in action in France. (My hat is off to Canada ... they have excellent free access to their WWI records ... even found the poor guy's medical records from his hospital stay before he died.) Hoping to do a Journal article about this gun.
Anyway, here's "Mickey" ...
My .455 Mark II 2nd model (#378xx) lettered as having shipped to the Canadian government in Ottawa on Jan 21, 1916 ... and it, too, has that same "Mickey Mouse" crown over a "O".
It was owned by a CEF officer who was killed in action in France. (My hat is off to Canada ... they have excellent free access to their WWI records ... even found the poor guy's medical records from his hospital stay before he died.) Hoping to do a Journal article about this gun.
Anyway, here's "Mickey" ...
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Looks like the crossed arrows were done with a single line die and struck six times to make the crossed arrows. Lighter on one side than the other. Or possibly by a single arrow die used twice.
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jebstuart
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
My two cents:
Its never been refinished, but if cold blue was applied, it makes most revolvers look better and can be removed with an oiled cloth & elbow grease back to the original finish.
It's never been to England, hence no English Mark's on upper back of frame (ie., broad arrow (British acceptance mark), Crown (crown regent property), Letter/number (Individual inspectors mark), "E" (Royal Enfield factory inspected) &
II (2nd model, not 1st model triple lock).
I have never seen a Canadian/Ottawa Crown "0" mark versus Crown/30 mark at the heel of butt, but 357magster has one (that makes two), and implies that they exist, though rare.
It lacks the "crossed sword/DCP" marks - perhaps Ottawa didn't strike them but the Canadian military did.
The point to point broad arrows (sold from stores) mark is Canadian correct, just poorly struck at 3 O'clock. I've seen it many times.
I can't see the end of the mushroom ejector rod - that would tell us much.
Anyway, that's my two cents & and worth every penny.
Its never been refinished, but if cold blue was applied, it makes most revolvers look better and can be removed with an oiled cloth & elbow grease back to the original finish.
It's never been to England, hence no English Mark's on upper back of frame (ie., broad arrow (British acceptance mark), Crown (crown regent property), Letter/number (Individual inspectors mark), "E" (Royal Enfield factory inspected) &
II (2nd model, not 1st model triple lock).
I have never seen a Canadian/Ottawa Crown "0" mark versus Crown/30 mark at the heel of butt, but 357magster has one (that makes two), and implies that they exist, though rare.
It lacks the "crossed sword/DCP" marks - perhaps Ottawa didn't strike them but the Canadian military did.
The point to point broad arrows (sold from stores) mark is Canadian correct, just poorly struck at 3 O'clock. I've seen it many times.
I can't see the end of the mushroom ejector rod - that would tell us much.
Anyway, that's my two cents & and worth every penny.
OP
Here you go.. What does the rod end tell? The bevel is steel color.
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The factory polished the bevel after the gun was blues, but of course, photos do not always show the right colors, but there appears to be no difference between the bevel and the rest of the knob??
OP
Bevel is silver, knurling down is blue. What should I be looking for? Lower part of the knob past the knurl looks like the rest of the gun Sorry for the cruddy cell phone picture.
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The plot thickens ...
My .455 Mark II 2nd model (#378xx) lettered as having shipped to the Canadian government in Ottawa on Jan 21, 1916 ... and it, too, has that same "Mickey Mouse" crown over a "O".
It was owned by a CEF officer who was killed in action in France. (My hat is off to Canada ... they have excellent free access to their WWI records ... even found the poor guy's medical records from his hospital stay before he died.) Hoping to do a Journal article about this gun.
Anyway, here's "Mickey" ...
Nice clear shot of the markings. So now we have two serial number quite close together with the crown 0 stamping. 378XX and 3680X.
We can only speculate as to why a second inspection stamp/number was used by the Canadian inspectors.
Does anyone else have a crown 0 marked butt strap example, they can share?
Regards
AlanD
Sydney
jebstuart
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
That's exactly what you should be looking for. The tip of the mushroom knob should be "in the white" from post blue polishing, as already stated. It implies no refinishing, not even cold blue. I have personally never seen anyone take the time to re-polish that spot, even if they're aware it should be. I'm still at: no refinish, not even cold blue. It's a beauty. If you spent less than a grand, you did well in my opinion.
handejector
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The plot thickens ...
My .455 Mark II 2nd model (#378xx) lettered as having shipped to the Canadian government in Ottawa on Jan 21, 1916 ... and it, too, has that same "Mickey Mouse" crown over a "O".
It was owned by a CEF officer who was killed in action in France. (My hat is off to Canada ... they have excellent free access to their WWI records ... even found the poor guy's medical records from his hospital stay before he died.) Hoping to do a Journal article about this gun.
Anyway, here's "Mickey" ...
I never considered that mark a big mystery because I've seen it on quite a few 455s made by S&W.
handejector
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Forgot to say the gun looks righteous to me. I see no signs of a refinish or cold blue.
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