USAF +P+ .38 Special ammo

[Leroy Thompson]

This post is primarily for former USAF SPs and those who collect USAF revolvers. A friend just sent me a photo of a box of 110 grain JHP +P+ DAA09-83-B-4780/NSN :1305-01-1233-A412 that according to his sources, which are good, was from a 1983 USAF contract. I don't have permission to post the photo. Does anyone know anything about an Air Force +P+ contract. 110-grain +P+ was the old Treasury load so is possibly for OSI?

 

[JayCeeNC]

A Google search shows the NSN for that round was assigned 25 AUG 1979, and other references to "Naval Investigative Service Use Only."
1305-01-082-1233 - CALIBER .38 SPECIAL CARTRIDGE | WBParts
Never heard of it, but I got out in 1975. Just 'ol FMJ for us Sky Cops back then, unless you sneaked your own into the Bucheimer dump boxes.

 

[poordevil]

Who is the maker of the ammo? I have Winchester .38 Special +P+ 110 gr RA38110HP+ and Federal 110 gr .38 Special +P+ 38FTD

 

[AimHigher]

I was USAF SP from 74 to 78, and have read a few articles about USAF .38 ammo development through the years. I don't recall reading or hearing about any .38+P+ rounds. At least not for the SP's - although they did increase the umph of the standard ball round somewhat in the 80's. My hunch is that they may have purchased +P+ rounds for OSI or maybe Para Rescue, but not for general SP use.

 

[Lee Barner]

definitely not OSI issue. we were issued the standard 130 gr -P- for the model 36s until the early 80s when we transitioned to the cut-down .45s that later colt copied and called the Officers ACP. lee

 

[sigp220.45]

I was an SP from 83 to 91. I know on a few occasions B-52 aircrews would be drawing their Model 15s and ammo from the armory at the same time we were. They could jump the line, and I remember them being issued JHP ammo while we were given our usual 18 rounds of ball (six loose rounds and two Bianchi speed strips for our pouches. The tabs were invariably ripped off of the speed strips).

I'm not sure what the ammo was. Once I asked the armorer about it and all he said was "thats what they get".

 

[thomasinaz]

I was an AF SP from 1983 to 1991. Being in my formative gun geek years, I had several discussions with our CATM guys about the 38 ammo for our Model 15s. It was 130 Gr ball which they said was loaded to +P velocities, but nobody seemed to know what that was. One said it was 357 Magnum velocity, but he may have been exaggerating. Didn't feel like 357 when I shot qualifications with it, but it was hotter than standard 38 Spl. No access to chronographs back then.

Sigp220.45: We got issued the standard 18 rounds, with 12 in black leather dump pouches. No high tech speed strips for us. Some of the issue ammo was starting to turn green from being stored in the leather pouches.

 

[old tanker]

Caliber .38 Special, Ball, PGU-12/B High Velocity cartridge.

Issued only by the U.S. Air Force, the PGU-12/B had a greatly increased maximum allowable pressure rating of 20,000 psi, sufficient to propel a 130-grain FMJ bullet at 1,125 ft/s (343 m/s) from a solid 6-inch (150 mm) test barrel, and about 950–980 ft/s from a 4-inch (100 mm) revolver barrel. The PGU-12/B High Velocity cartridge differs from M41 Special ammunition in two important respects—the PGU-12/B is a much higher-pressure cartridge, with a bullet deeply set and crimped into the cartridge case.

The high pressure cartridge is easy to spot. Here it is between standard 158 grain lead round nose and special ball, M41.

 

[MajorD]

Back when I was in the Air Force reserve our gate guards were carrying hollow points. It may have varied from base to base. I noted when interfacing with the gate guard as well as seeing them in the px etc they all had ammo in nickel cases.
Perhaps much like the coast guard being allowed hp 40 for domestic le use. Seems it is ok to shoot Threats in America with a hp but heaven forbid we do the same to our enemies in the third world!?

 

[old tanker]

...they all had ammo in nickel cases...

When I was a kid, beat cops usually carried their spare ammo in belt loops. I thought the bullets were green bullets because the cops were Irish.

Nickel cases didn't turn green.

 

[Muley Gil]

Back in the day, when the word "Magnum" sent shivers up and down the spines of civil servants and politically appointed police chiefs, the +P+ round was developed. It was supposed to be shot in .357 Magnum revolvers. IIRC, there are no SAAMI specs for +P+ .38 special.

 

[dscampbell]

Back when I was in the Air Force reserve our gate guards were carrying hollow points. It may have varied from base to base. I noted when interfacing with the gate guard as well as seeing them in the px etc they all had ammo in nickel cases.
Perhaps much like the coast guard being allowed hp 40 for domestic le use. Seems it is ok to shoot Threats in America with a hp but heaven forbid we do the same to our enemies in the third world!?

The Geneva Convention strikes again


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[Leroy Thompson]

110-grain Treasury Load

THe first time I saw the 110-grain +P+ load, and that was the first +P+ load I knew existed, it was the issue round for Dept of Treasury SAs; not IRS or Secret Service but Treasury investigators. Their issue weapon was the Model 36 with 110-grain +P+ loads. Based on one of their firearms instructors in the St. Louis office when I was shooting with him, and I believe I saw this elsewhere later, S&W voided the warranty on their 36s because of the pressures of the loads. He gave me a couple of boxes of it at the time and I seem to remember that it was Winchester. Normally, they practiced with and qualified with standard velocity .38 special loads, but my friend found that when he had them qualify with the +P+ load a lot of them had trouble so he started requiring that they shoot their qualifications with the duty +P+ round. Pressure was 23,500 psi. Firing the +P+ was definitely noticeable in the Model 36, but not as fearsome as some claimed. It certainly wasn't as bad as the first time I fired 125-grain JHP in a Model 66 2.5 inch. One interesting aspect of the +P+ GI ammo I mentioned to start this thread is that it was loaded by IMI.

 

[jframejoey]

I thought the only ammo our guys carried in revolvers was the anemic model 56/M41 round.

 

[max]

Mr. Thompson, I always enjoy your writing and am glad to see you posting here.

 

[old tanker]

... One interesting aspect of the +P+ GI ammo I mentioned to start this thread is that it was loaded by IMI....

When the M9 was fielded infantry units and MP's were among the first to get them. Fortunately, as tankers, we were much further down the line and had to "make do" with M1911's and M3A1 submachineguns well into the Nineties for some units. Much of the .45 ball had TZZ headstamps, IMI military contract ammo.

 

[WC145]

I was an SP from '81-'85 and part of that time I worked as an armorer. The only .38spl round I saw was the plain old anemic 130gr round nose FMJ. I never saw any hollow point rounds or any deep seated rounds as pictured in post #8.

 

[max]

I would not feel I had to "make do" with a 1911. I carried one in Vietnam.

When the M9 was fielded infantry units and MP's were among the first to get them. Fortunately, as tankers we were much further down the line and had to make do with M1911's and M3A1 submachineguns well into the Nineties for some units. Much of the .45 ball had TZZ headstamps, IMI military contract ammo.

 

[JP@AK]

I would not feel I had to "make do" with a 1911. I carried one in Vietnam.

Agreed. If I was allowed to chose, I'd take the 1911A1 over the M9 Beretta 9mm every time.

Talk about "making do," we had to carry the S&W Model 15 in my unit. I loved the gun, but would have preferred a .45.

 

[Tim357]

The Geneva Convention strikes again


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Actually, it was the Hague Accords. GC relates to treatment of EPWs