I know there are some sites specific to the military.45s but always find this forums knowledge to be best. Recently I have become interested in the 1911A1s of WWII and after some reading find the older WWI era also of interest. Any information or advice you guys may have will be much appreciated.
USGI 1911s
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The best information I have to share is to do your homework before you put your money down. Know what you are looking at.
There are a ton of mismatched, put together, hacked up pistols out there that have been assembled and or worked on by Bubba. In addition to not being original, some of them can be unsafe (Bubba does a heck of a trigger job). Many of these pistols are priced MUCH higher than their actual shooter or collector value. Watch out for removed/defaced US Property markings among other things.
Mind you, I am not referring to legitimate Arsenal or Armory rebuilds in my previous comments, those are collectables in their own right. There are a lot of nice USGI M1911/M1911A1's out there.
There are a ton of mismatched, put together, hacked up pistols out there that have been assembled and or worked on by Bubba. In addition to not being original, some of them can be unsafe (Bubba does a heck of a trigger job). Many of these pistols are priced MUCH higher than their actual shooter or collector value. Watch out for removed/defaced US Property markings among other things.
Mind you, I am not referring to legitimate Arsenal or Armory rebuilds in my previous comments, those are collectables in their own right. There are a lot of nice USGI M1911/M1911A1's out there.
DWalt
Member
You really didn't make clear your intent. If it is just to shoot, there are numerous reputable new guns made in the WWII M1911A1 GI-style, and you are probably better off buying one of them. If you are interested in a collectible authentic GI M1911A1, then the tariff will be considerably higher for an example in higher condition, depending on the maker. The most common M1911A1s are those made by Remington Rand, with lesser numbers being made by Colt, Ithaca, and Union Switch & Signal. Singer made 500, but those are priced at stratospheric levels today - if you could even find one. Main thing aside from finish condition is that it be original and complete without mixed parts. Be prepared to start in the $1000 range for one in lesser but otherwise matching parts condition and go up rapidly from there. Finding a good WWI M1911 is a very difficult task today, and again there are several makers. It is unlikely that you will find any made other than by Colt, but there are a few around from Springfield Armory (the U. S. Army armory, not the current Springfield Armory company) and Remington-UMC. And those in original and high condition are even more uncommon. Good luck.
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Charles Clawson wrote several excellent books on 1911's and 1911A1's. His book Colt .45 Service Pistols: Models of 1911 and 1911A1 is an excellent reference guide to have for someone wanting to learn more about the military versions.
BigBill
Absent Comrade
I gave up trying to buy a ww2 1911a1. I purchased a auto ordnance US Army clone it's the closest I'll ever get to the real thing. I purchased the Springfield Armory GI Mil Spec too. Both are awesome shooters.
My intention is to pursue a quality collection. I'd be ok with early arsenal reworks but want examples that are very nice.
CptCurl
Member
For this you should start with a well-stuffed wallet. It's surprising how pricey the military 1911 and 1911A1 pistols have become.
Ballpark figures from my observation (for good original matching guns):
* WW1 Colt brushed blue finish - $3,000
* WW1 Colt "black army" finish - $2,500
* WW1 Springfield Armory - a lot of money. Haven't seen one lately. I'm guessing $6,500 maybe.
* WW2 early Remington Rand, Dulite finish - $2,750
* WW2 later Remington Rand, parkerized - $1,750
* WW2 Colt - $3,500
* WW2 Ithaca - $2,500
* WW2 U.S.&S. - $3,500
* WW2 Singer - $85,000
Without Clawson's book you are flying blind.
It's a fun bunch of guns to pursue. I've barely scratched the surface collecting them.
My advice is to start with a really good Remington Rand and work from there. The Remington Rand was the overwhelming (by numbers) sidearm of WW2. They far outnumbered the Colts, Ithacas, and others.
Good luck, and keep us informed.
Curl
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More tips for 1911A1 collecting
Some more tips from my experiences (good and bad).
While Clawson's book(s)--any printing-- are THE reference, they are also very expensive as being out of print for years. The price range these days is$800 - $1,200 depending on whether you can accept a dog-eared, loose binding, yellowed copy or not. I found years ago that the same money put towards a better condition 1911A1 was "better" for me.
As previously posted, knowledge is king, however you also need to have basic familiarity with both field stripping, and "some" detail stripping to be sure that you are looking at an accurate piece BEFORE purchasing.
This is pretty much impossible with out-of-state, or internet sales so you are stuck with sellers description which can be grossly inadequate to say the least.
Even with face-to-face negotiations, if I am selling, I'll offer to strip to any detail the buyer wants, as long as I do it, in his/her presence, with proper tools, and care.
Attached is a pdf. of Brian Sheetz American Rifleman, print showing basic strip and parts nomenclature....at least become familiar with this. If lloking at Colts for example, some early versions had the last 4 digits of the serial number stamped underneath the firing pin stop, so you need (should) ask for a look at this too, if looking at a supposedly "all numbers matching" specimen.
Another item I always look for is internal parts that have a different finish quality than the rest of the gun. For example, remove the Main Spring Housing (have proper pin punches..do NOT use the hammer strut) and have a look at the three leaf mainspring....see if it is nicely blued whereas the rest of the gun is maybe 80-85%, grip screws, grip screw bushings properly staked, no evidence of Loctite, is the three leaf main spring appearing original and not "bent" (this was done quite a few times by shooters long after the war in order to defeat the grip safety). Grips? genuine "Coltwood", Keyes fiber, panels marked and with correct reinforcing rings & ribs...
The list goes on and on but I'm sure you get the idea...advance knowledge will surely ease the burden on your wallet, and hopefully keep you from getting a bubbaed up mess.
I am down now to just one Ithaca, but have bought/sold several back in my 1911A1 collecting days, never had a Singer, but did go through Colts, Remington Rands
Some excellent books available today are: US Handguns of WWII (Charles Pate); Standard Catalog of Colt Firearms (Rick Sapp); US Military Automatic Pistols 1920-1945 (Edward Scott Meadows).
One final tip if you are a buyer looking at a specimen for sale: treat the gun as if you already own it and are very, very concerned about care and handling....don't rack the action and snap off a dry fire, don't slap the magazine in and out like you are hitting the beach at Iwo, KNOW FOR SURE which way the barrel bushing rotates to remove for stripping, even if you see the classic "idiot scratch" do NOT aggravate it by repeating during re-assembly....in other words...if the Owner does it, it is OK (and better negotiating for you)....you do it to one of my guns...I'm highly PO'd and will act accordingly for pricing and any extras.
Good luck with your collecting of 1911A1's...they can be addictive, but there are lots still out there.
Come back occasionally and let us know how your collection is growing.....pictures are mandatory.
Some more tips from my experiences (good and bad).
While Clawson's book(s)--any printing-- are THE reference, they are also very expensive as being out of print for years. The price range these days is$800 - $1,200 depending on whether you can accept a dog-eared, loose binding, yellowed copy or not. I found years ago that the same money put towards a better condition 1911A1 was "better" for me.
As previously posted, knowledge is king, however you also need to have basic familiarity with both field stripping, and "some" detail stripping to be sure that you are looking at an accurate piece BEFORE purchasing.
This is pretty much impossible with out-of-state, or internet sales so you are stuck with sellers description which can be grossly inadequate to say the least.
Even with face-to-face negotiations, if I am selling, I'll offer to strip to any detail the buyer wants, as long as I do it, in his/her presence, with proper tools, and care.
Attached is a pdf. of Brian Sheetz American Rifleman, print showing basic strip and parts nomenclature....at least become familiar with this. If lloking at Colts for example, some early versions had the last 4 digits of the serial number stamped underneath the firing pin stop, so you need (should) ask for a look at this too, if looking at a supposedly "all numbers matching" specimen.
Another item I always look for is internal parts that have a different finish quality than the rest of the gun. For example, remove the Main Spring Housing (have proper pin punches..do NOT use the hammer strut) and have a look at the three leaf mainspring....see if it is nicely blued whereas the rest of the gun is maybe 80-85%, grip screws, grip screw bushings properly staked, no evidence of Loctite, is the three leaf main spring appearing original and not "bent" (this was done quite a few times by shooters long after the war in order to defeat the grip safety). Grips? genuine "Coltwood", Keyes fiber, panels marked and with correct reinforcing rings & ribs...
The list goes on and on but I'm sure you get the idea...advance knowledge will surely ease the burden on your wallet, and hopefully keep you from getting a bubbaed up mess.
I am down now to just one Ithaca, but have bought/sold several back in my 1911A1 collecting days, never had a Singer, but did go through Colts, Remington Rands
Some excellent books available today are: US Handguns of WWII (Charles Pate); Standard Catalog of Colt Firearms (Rick Sapp); US Military Automatic Pistols 1920-1945 (Edward Scott Meadows).
One final tip if you are a buyer looking at a specimen for sale: treat the gun as if you already own it and are very, very concerned about care and handling....don't rack the action and snap off a dry fire, don't slap the magazine in and out like you are hitting the beach at Iwo, KNOW FOR SURE which way the barrel bushing rotates to remove for stripping, even if you see the classic "idiot scratch" do NOT aggravate it by repeating during re-assembly....in other words...if the Owner does it, it is OK (and better negotiating for you)....you do it to one of my guns...I'm highly PO'd and will act accordingly for pricing and any extras.
Good luck with your collecting of 1911A1's...they can be addictive, but there are lots still out there.
Come back occasionally and let us know how your collection is growing.....pictures are mandatory.
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03hemi
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Get a bigger wallet.
kwill1911
Member
I collected them for 30+ years but got out of it for several reasons. Primarily, they have become so popular that prices are way up and I estimate that 40% or more have been humped up, refinished, put together or otherwise misrepresented. There are some talented refinishers and unscrupulous sellers that make the present day hobby a minefield. Try to find a mentor that knows his stuff and can coach you on building a collection. It doesn't matter what the Clawson books cost--buy them and study them! The books by Scott Meadows are almost as good and are not as expensive. I would not trust any other sources.
DWalt
Member
One other book which should be on every M1911 collector's bookshelf is Colt Automatic Pistols by Donald B. Bady (Borden Publishing Co., 1973, 345pp). It is not strictly a collector's guide, but it goes into great historical detail about the design, adoption, and production of the M1911 by all manufacturers, including predecessor models, WWI production, WWII production, the Argentine and Norwegian models, and commercial civilian production. While the book covers all vintage Colt autopistols from 1897 through the post-WWII period, probably half of the content is devoted to the M1911/M1911A1.
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kwill1911
Member
I'm sorry to disagree. Bady's book does have some interesting history but is loaded with errors and is not useful for collecting purposes. Same with Harrison and quite a few others. Clawson and Meadows are remarkably accurate and have the same history.
Grayfox
US Veteran
Be aware that all original military issue 1911s are very scarce and extremely expensive. Almost every 1911 Uncle Sam ever owned has been arsenal reworked at least once. The arsenals didn't care about keeping parts together so most of these are mix masters. However, they are exactly what was issued to troops for many years. But even these ain't cheap. Expect to spend at least $1000 for a well used one.
I do have this mystery 1911 that I bought some years ago at a reasonable price. Its a mix of all original G.I. parts. However there aren't any arsenal marks anywhere on it. Exactly who, when and where it was put together will likely never be known. However, it is a good example of a G.I. issue 1911 and a great shooter.
Last year the Civilian Marksmanship Program was authorized to receive and sell U.S.G.I. 1911s which the Army has had in storage for many years. Most of which are fresh arsenal rebuilds which were never reissued. The current batch is sold out and CMP is no longer taking applications. However, I'm betting that some of them will show up on the used gun market before long. You might keep an eye out for one of these.
My application is in and I'm hoping to get one in next year's batch.
I do have this mystery 1911 that I bought some years ago at a reasonable price. Its a mix of all original G.I. parts. However there aren't any arsenal marks anywhere on it. Exactly who, when and where it was put together will likely never be known. However, it is a good example of a G.I. issue 1911 and a great shooter.
Last year the Civilian Marksmanship Program was authorized to receive and sell U.S.G.I. 1911s which the Army has had in storage for many years. Most of which are fresh arsenal rebuilds which were never reissued. The current batch is sold out and CMP is no longer taking applications. However, I'm betting that some of them will show up on the used gun market before long. You might keep an eye out for one of these.
My application is in and I'm hoping to get one in next year's batch.
I seen a few for sale already!
Mixmasters are out there and not too terribly expensive. I recently sold a Colt 1911 rearsonal for $800. It was rough, but it was still mostly 1911 (not 1911A1) and possibly a veteran of two or more wars.
kwill1911
Member
No, not an entire book. However, Charlie Pate's most excellent book covers them well. U.S. Handguns of WWII - The Secondary Pistols and Revolvers.
GUNMIKE
US Veteran
The best reference that I have found is a web site...
www.CoolGunsite.com
It has a lot of data to help find a descent 1911. Hope this helps.
www.CoolGunsite.com
It has a lot of data to help find a descent 1911. Hope this helps.
Thank you all for your input. I understand this area of collecting is both risky and expensive. As with any aspect of collecting you need to be informed before making a purchase. Currently I am pursuing a 1917 Colt RIA arsenal stamped. Waiting for pictures but supposed to be very clean and matching. From what I've read a pistol could make a trip through the arsenal and only get a stamp if it needed no work. Any thoughts on what to look for with an earl Colt?
kbm6893
Member
The last 1911 produced for the US military (excluding special units with tricked out guns) was in 1945. Unless you find a GI bring back, most are gonna be re-arsenaled. So what? The 1911 hanging from a GI's hip in Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, and during the Gulf War were re-arsenaled and re-parkerized. They are the real deal. I got lucky with a service grade from the CMP. 1944 Colt frame with a 1950's Colt slide. Rebuilt twice, last time in July if 1976. Has all the correct markings. I paid $1050 for it. I have already been offered $1500. It's not for sale.
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Beware of Essex frames. For a long time 1911s were built of surplus 1911 parts on Essex frames. The Essex frames are not military and are suspect at best.
Most of all buy what you like. Personally I avoid unfired/unissued guns because I'm a shooter at heart.
Wait until you start getting into accessories - they aren't any easier.
Most of all buy what you like. Personally I avoid unfired/unissued guns because I'm a shooter at heart.
Wait until you start getting into accessories - they aren't any easier.
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