Using LE marked ammo for civilain self defense carry

We'd have to ban virtually everything....38 special, .357, .45acp, 9mm (Ok, we could probably do without that one...
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)...all of which are big time military and police cartridges. We'd be left with .32 long...no, the police used to use that...mmm, looks like we got .380acp, .32acp, and .22lr left to us!
 
Just about all ammunition marked "LE only" has come up for sale at one time or another as surplus on the secondary market (gunshops/gunshows) when a department went to a different caliber or various other reasons.

So...what's all the hub-bub?
 
As Stophel points out, any choice can be attacked by an opposing attorney who's trying to fabricate a case.

The lesson is, we need to be able to convincingly articulate why our choice was a reasonable and proper one.
 
Originally posted by Massad Ayoob:
As Stophel points out, any choice can be attacked by an opposing attorney who's trying to fabricate a case.

The lesson is, we need to be able to convincingly articulate why our choice was a reasonable and proper one.

I'm currently reading your new Concealed Carry book Mas. It's a great book that also covers this topic in depth as well. I recommend to everyone who carries or is considering to carry concealed to take time to read it. There is something to be learned for everyone. Except maybe the author.
 
I still have a few Remington double ball .38 loads that I keep in one of my guns. The box said "law enforcement only". I think I bought them from Midway or some other mail order company (sometime in the '90's). They were regularly available at the time.
 
Originally posted by Massad Ayoob:
As Stophel points out, any choice can be attacked by an opposing attorney who's trying to fabricate a case.

The lesson is, we need to be able to convincingly articulate why our choice was a reasonable and proper one.

Exactly, and there is nothing at all unreasonable about utilizing "all the research and testing" that went into the selection of ammunition by a police department. Kinda follows along the same lines of utilizing "all the research and development" that went into the design of ammunition that is marketed by *insert big name manufacturer here* as Personal Protection ammunition.

If I am on a jury, both of the above arguments not only seem reasonable, but they both seem down right smart, responsible, and prudent on the part of the person using them to defend him/herself.
 
Originally posted by Jellybean:
But if I were to regulate it I would propose LE use firearms in a different caliber that would be illegal for civillian possesion.
This is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read on the internet.

Or issue them ammunition with cases that are marked LE only, and this would be a good use for microstamping
OK, this just doesn't feel to good to me.

I'm from the old school, former LEO, that finds this police arms race, from a citizens perspective, to be quite disturbing. You know everytime I read about a bad guy getting shot 41 times by police, the attitude (like in the quotes) of the militarized police comes through. Which is, we the police, have to have more lethal and more capacity than anyone else. I find these quotes disturbing in many ways.
 
Let's start with the second quote frag, you forgot the most important part of it. You changed the meaning of it entirely.

You completly misunderstood both of them completely anyway. I'm a former LEO from an older school, there is nothing here even remotely related to a "police arms race". Those comments are both referring to investigations and not legality issues. I see you're new here so I'll explan a little for you. I was being sarcastic in response to the "other" threads about using handloads for self defense. I was taking the complete opposite side of the argument and using the same excuses as the people that were the "antis" in those threads. My fan club likes to hijack every thread they can by over reacting to the "other" points I make.

Welcome to the forum, and I hope you can sleep easier now.
 
I took the ccw class in the Nashville area last Friday. The instructor is a law enforcement officer and showed everyone different types of ammunition. He held up a Black Talons and told everyone it is illegal to possess this ammunition in the state of Tennessee. I do not have any, but was unaware of it being illegal in my state.
 
I feel he is misinformed. It's just hype over nothing. I'd ask for a verbatim documented law. There are better rounds than Black Talons to be had now and they aren't illegal. It's a shame you have professionals that people trust to instruct them and they are spreading false laws and regulations to people.
 
Originally posted by bbaaspencer:
I took the ccw class in the Nashville area last Friday. The instructor is a law enforcement officer and showed everyone different types of ammunition. He held up a Black Talons and told everyone it is illegal to possess this ammunition in the state of Tennessee. I do not have any, but was unaware of it being illegal in my state.

I'd ask him to cite a specific statute. After browsing the TN statutes, this is the only thing I can find regarding ammunition:

39-17-1304. Restrictions on firearm ammunition. —

(a) It is an offense for any person to possess, use or attempt to use restricted firearm ammunition while committing or attempting to commit a crime of violence. A violation of this section constitutes a separate and distinct felony.

(b) It is an offense for any person or corporation to manufacture, sell, offer for sale, display for sale or use in this state any ammunition cartridge, metallic or otherwise, containing a bullet with a hollow-nose cavity that is filled with an explosive material and designed to detonate upon impact; provided, that the provisions of this section shall not apply to any state or federal military unit or personnel for use in the performance of its duties.

(c) (1) A violation of subsection (a) by possession of restricted firearm ammunition is a Class E felony.

(2) A violation of subsection (a) by use or attempted use of restricted firearm ammunition is a Class D felony.

(3) A violation of subsection (b) is a Class E felony.

[Acts 1989, ch. 591, § 1.]

My guess is that the instructor was wrong.
 
Yes he is wrong. Amazing how people hear something and it gets repeated without anybody checking. No doubt the instructor heard it somewhere and has said the same line over and over.
 
I don't know about Tennessee, but when I took my CCDW class in Kentucky, we were informed that it was illegal to commit a felony with "flanged" ammunition. The instructor informed us that "flanged" ammunition meant Black Talon. It was not illegal to buy, sell, possess, or use. But, if you committed a felony while carrying it, it was an extra charge.

Similar to legislation in many states regarding body armor.

Kind of silly, IMO, but at least it was a law that did no harm.

Black Talon has been off the market so long, that I don't hear much about it any more. One of the advantages of getting older, I guess.
 
Originally posted by grendelbane:
I don't know about Tennessee, but when I took my CCDW class in Kentucky, we were informed that it was illegal to commit a felony with "flanged" ammunition. The instructor informed us that "flanged" ammunition meant Black Talon. It was not illegal to buy, sell, possess, or use. But, if you committed a felony while carrying it, it was an extra charge.

Similar to legislation in many states regarding body armor.

Kind of silly, IMO, but at least it was a law that did no harm.

Black Talon has been off the market so long, that I don't hear much about it any more. One of the advantages of getting older, I guess.

It is illegal to commit a felony, period (that's why it's called a felony). I don't see how that kind of law does anything to help prevent a crime. Probably some feel-good measure a politician spent a lot of time on.
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Originally posted by bbaaspencer:
I took the ccw class in the Nashville area last Friday. The instructor is a law enforcement officer and showed everyone different types of ammunition. He held up a Black Talons and told everyone it is illegal to possess this ammunition in the state of Tennessee. I do not have any, but was unaware of it being illegal in my state.

I teach the HPC class in Tennessee and am a retired LEO and firearms instructor. Your instructor is wrong. Black Talon ammo is not illegal in this state.
 
Originally posted by Massad Ayoob:
The lesson is, we need to be able to convincingly articulate why our choice was a reasonable and proper one.

That's interesting . . . that's what I remember from the courses I took from Ayoob. What a coincidence!
 
Thirdly, as a former police officer I am 100% against civillians carrying the same ammunition as the police. We had a local shooting incident years ago. In the ensuing investigatin there was brass all over the place. Of course the two officers were using the same brand so each one had to be checked to make sure which firearm it came from. The investigation took a little longer because the deceased bad guy apparently had three different types of ammunition in his weapon, one of which was the exact same as the one the police were using. I was tempted to start carrying a .41AE on duty, so my brass would be the only one of it's kind on the scene.

This doesn't make a bit of sense. If everybody is carrying, for example, Remington & Peters 9mm, every case will be headstamped R&P at the top, and 9mm at the bottom. But, some might be hardball, some hollowpoint, some Golden Sabre, etc. Should have have different calibers for police and non-police? Different manufacturers for police and non-police? Besides, your post says that the BAD GUY was carrying (among others) the same ammo as the police. That's a lot different that a law-abiding citizen with a CCW permit carrying the same load for defensive purposes! We'd don't need more restrictions on the lawful exercise of Second Amendment rights just to make an investigation easier.
 
The difference between a police officer and a private citizen is nothing more than (1) the first is part of a organization of citizens and (2) the latter is simply an individual citizen.

Police officers are citizens just like me. They simply decided to undertake an honored profession which serves and protects their fellow citizens.

Quite correct... proud to have spent the last 28 years as a civilian with a badge!
 
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