Reloaded ammunition for Self Defense.

[WR Moore]

There is no such thing as an exemplar sample of the ammunition you may have used.
...........................
And you CANT call the ammo company up,,, because each lot date is loaded differently from every other one. They can and DO use a different powder in each lot, and adjust the loading with each cargo container of powder that comes in.

As noted previously, the ammo companies keep exemplars of ALL ammo lots, they also keep extremely detailed records including the machine that produced that lot, the brand, type and lot number of primer; brand, type and lot number of powder and amount used; bullet make, type and weight-lot number if available; date/time of production and possibly the name of the machine operator.

They do this mostly for liability reasons in case of a ka-boom, but they do make the records available for other reasons. In my state, such records have figured in several trials. One where the state crime lab used the wrong lot of ammunition for comparison testing.

The records of Fedingtonchester would be admissible as they are from a third, disinterested and independent party. Your records wouldn't be those of a disinterested party.

Finally, if the case alluded to in the post by BB57 was the Bias case, Bias lost. His records weren't admitted. IIRC, neither were test results from an independent lab on left over ammo.

My competition, practice and most training is done with factory duplication hand loads. I carry factory. It's a lot cheaper than paying an attorney to argue about the source/choice of your ammo.

And yes, let's PLEASE just leave this in the "we agree to disagree" bin and not waste more bandwidth on it. There was once a website where noted experts in the field held forth on this issue. Alas, it is no more. The collected wisdom of those gents was essentially what I posted as my practice.

 

[gen3guy]

That's an interesting perspective. One that I don't happen to share.

My cousin Jeff worked as a police officer and inspected each round he was issued. It was a pain as the police chief at the time didn't like guns and officers were issued 18 rounds - 6 in the revolver and 6 in each dump pouch. This was the late 1970s and a decade after the Newhall shooting, so the fact they had to use dump pouches spoke volumes. If you begged you could get 2 extra rounds as the dump pouches would hold 7, and it was almost guaranteed you'd drop a round reloading under stress.

Consequently, when he found a round with a flaw getting a replacement was a pain, but he still persisted. (He also carried a S&W 36 as an unauthorized backup.)

His experience with flaws in factory ammo convinced me that factory ammo quality isn't what it's made out to be. It eventually convinced him to start his own company and his QA staff are ruthless when it comes to ensuring what goes out the door is as near to perfect as possible.

That insistence on quality is why BHA won't ever be a big company, as they still maintain that commitment to quality, even when they've got about 2 years worth of back orders.

His factory ammo I trust, everyone else? I can handload better ammo myself.

I have full control how the primer is handled to ensure no contamination. I have the same control over the powder, and I velocity test each lot of powder I use to get the optimum charge for the desired velocity. I can hand inspect each case and hand weigh and inspect each bullet and ensure that all the components are precisely assembled.

The end result is that I've never had a failure with a hand loaded self defense round.

That's tribal knowledge. Not statistical reliability.

 

[BB57]

That's tribal knowledge. Not statistical reliability.

No argument there.

My point is that I have full control over the loading process and at least as much control over component selection compared to factory ammo. And unlike someone in a factory, it's my neck on the line if the "product" fails.

Also unlike most factory workers I have 43 years experience handloading and experience matters.

Edit:

I do however also expend my carry ammo on pretty much every range trip and load the gun with fresh ammo. When you do that over a 34 years carrying a self defense handgun expanding 20 or so rounds per month or carried ammo, that adds up to about 250 rounds per year, and 8500 rounds without failure over 34 years. That's not counting all the other ammo fired in the same load(s) that was not actually carried in the gun, but rather just loaded as part of the stock of self defense suitable ammo. Include that and I've had well over 50,000 rounds with zero failures. Expand that out a bit more to about 10,000 rounds loaded per year over the last 20 years, and I can count the failure to fires on one hand. This came to mond as aI had a .223 round fail to fire on Sunday and I could not recall the last time I had a failed primer. Still we're talking about less than 5 rounds failing to fire out of about 200,000 rounds. At some point there's some statistical reliability there.

 

[sniper]

Why not just make the issue of using hand loads verses factory ammo a non-issue and carry what your State Police carry? They run many tests for that ammo to make sure it is the best to use in defensive situations. Chances are you will carry it for a year, practice with it at the range, then replace it with the current SP carry ammo.

Except the State Police carry semi autos, 9mm mostly, and I only have .38 caliber revolvers!

 

[BigSky!]

I don't think I'll ever be swayed into believing that possible criminal prosecution or civil litigation will successfully turn on whether or not an individual used handloads vs factory ammo. I guess one could intentionally hire a lawyer who got his/her law license from a cracker jack box AND THEN instruct said lawyer to sleep during the trial; but, all of that is unrealistic.

Every argument regarding this issue could be easily torpedo'd. I know, I know, we can come up with an exception to everything.

A Prosecutor could say, "Even though this guy has the capability of hand loading safe and effective ammuntion, he went out of his way to buy XYZ Super-wam ammo. Read the advertising materials. This factory ammunition is designed to expend over 50% more beyond it's original size and it is designed to expend more energy inside of the individual being shot (victim) with the intent of serious tissue destruction. He paid three times as much for this Superl-wam ammo than it would have cost him to use his own loads. He went out of his way to get the most destructive ammo he could find. Face it people of the jury, he was on a mission".

Absurd? I don't think so. Every argument people make on this topic can be either a) easily refuted; or, b) easily turned around.

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
I usually use factory loads for carry as I use max loads and I don't have the will to work up for each gun.
There is one gun I will use reloads in.
My Bulldog 44 spec "Boomer".
I have some 200gr GT SWC HP bullets that will be loaded to target
speeds.
I am depending on the big slow bullet/ lighter weight to cut blow through/ lighter kick,lower pressure and noise range of loads.
Rather than the light, warp speed round that has a built in air break.[aka hollow point] and makes all deff for a bit...

 

[rwsmith]

Fortunately, in my state....

..I could reload my own bazooka rounds and not have a problem. But the way things are going, that may not last.

 

[italiansport]

I will go right back to the 1st post "Don't"! IMO you are setting yourself up for a charge of purposefully loading ammunition to maim someone and this hasn't changed over the years. I carry ammo that is specifically marketed for defensive purposes.
Jim

 

[Jellybean]

This topic used to come up quite often.

At first the article made little sense as to how using reloads for self defense would send you to prison, as it wasn't about a self defense shooting at all. It seemed to be more about how a guy was railroaded in his wife's death and his inept attorney could find no way to help him but to hire Mr. Ayoob, but his testimony wasn't allowed in court so the guy went to jail. There were very few facts about the case in the article.

Then Mr. Ayoob joined in a couple conversations...He claimed the real reason not to use reloads was due to the lack of exemplar evidence, which wouldn't have made any difference in this case because the guy was railroaded, or maybe not. His right-handed wife supposedly shot herself a couple of inches behind the left ear with a 6" revolver with no traces of gunshot residue or evidence of a close range gun shot. It then sounded as though the defense attorney was just looking for any excuse to sway the jury. The "facts" seemed to have been created solely to support Mr. Ayoob's theory.

The incident had played out years before but the internet eventually caught up to it. Archived news articles started showing up about the case which refuted Mr. Ayoobs version of the story. First there were several trials, at first the jury couldn't agree on a verdict, then the defendant was convicted in a second trial but it was overturned, then in the last trial he was convicted which held. The defendant apparently admitted to the responding EMS crew that he didn't mean to shoot his wife and the reason his first trial was overturned was because the prosecution couldn't prove the level of intent. There was a real "expert witness" involved in the case and his testimony was heard in at least one trial. One part of Mr. Ayoobs article was true though. At the end where he stated the defendant had served his sentence and was still involved with archery there was a news article where the defendant was sent back to prison because as a convicted felon he wasn't allowed to possess bows and arrows...

...Which all goes to prove that you have more of a chance of going to prison because of Mr. Ayoob's articles than for using reloads for a defensive shooting.

During one of these discussions one of our members mentioned that where he lived they were required to use certain ammunition so be sure you know what the laws are wherever you plan to carry because they can vary.

And I second the vote to lock this one.

 

[Oldfrt]

Is it not the purpose of any ammo to kill or maim the target. A someone stated earlier if the shoot is good then the shoot is good irregardless of the weapon or ammo used. Just my humble misinformed opinion, yours may differ, and now I am out of popcorn the tin is empty.

 

[Wise_A]

And I second the vote to lock this one.

You misread. I'm voting to ban the topic.

 

[SMSgt]

I just had 3 rare FTFs out of 5000 small pistol primers. That's just not good enough to stake my life on.

Unfortunately, there is no "pre-test" for primers of any make, whether factory or reloader installed. I've had factory ammo go click on occasion also. It happens.

 

[WR Moore]

Couple of points here. First, Mas Ayoob has a long and distinguished record as an expert witness in use of force cases. He does double digit trials most years and has seen stuff come up that may not be brought up at trial since it was mooted pre-trial.

Now, I've never heard or read that he ever said words to the effect that if you use hand loads, you'll go to jail. What he has pointed out is that it can-not will- raise issues at trial that's going to cost your attorneys time (and your money) to counter. Depending upon the jury pool it may well be a toss up who prevails. Remember also that in civil (boy can that be a misrepresentation) court, the standard is preponderance of evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt. The voting standard may well/is different too.

If you're already facing trial, you don't need extra issues to deal with. You've got enough on your plate. Actually, your attorney has enough on his plate-but you're picking up the check. Also, factory exemplars have been central to several cases in my state. I can buy a lot of factory ammo for what lawyers get per hour.

Do what you want to, you're all adults.

Oldfrt-the purpose of defensive ammunition is to incapacitate the unlawful aggressor.

 

[mikld]

I will go right back to the 1st post "Don't"! IMO you are setting yourself up for a charge of purposefully loading ammunition to maim someone and this hasn't changed over the years. I carry ammo that is specifically marketed for defensive purposes.
Jim

What if your "Self Defense", extremely effective on human targets, designed purposely to do as much damage as possible and is intended for deadly force, is more "deadly" than my handloads? Not every handload is charged to maximum with the most devastating bullets available. Actually my SD handloads are loaded for functioning and accuracy over "maximum effectiveness on target". Factory Self Defense ammo is designed to be the deadliest possible; true "killer" ammunition...

If anything were to be considered it would probably be the high capacity magazines; "The defendant obviously approached the situation prepared to kill/maim the plaintiff because his gun contained 17 rounds and he carried an extra 17 rounds in a spare magazine. He carried enough ammunition to fight a war"...

Darn! I got sucked into this silly argument again...

 

[muddocktor]

Unfortunately, there is no "pre-test" for primers of any make, whether factory or reloader installed. I've had factory ammo go click on occasion also. It happens.

This statement is very true; I actually saw this myself. My SIL used to work for the parish jail and he was shooting up some of his issued ammo, which was some 45 Auto Winchester Ranger stuff. Second one out of the mag was a dud round. I brought that round home to do a post mortem on it and used my whack a mole puller to take it apart. I got the bullet pulled and it did have powder in it, then ran it through a decapping die and inspected the primer. And found that the primer only had compound in about 1/4 the circumference of it and the rest was empty and nothing was in the immediate vicinity of the primer anvil.

I now carry factory stuff in my defensive guns, but used to carry reloads. And I have been thinking of trying out some more reloads instead of factory ammo since you can find Speer Gold Dot bullets in stock now. If nothing else, I can use them to make some cheaper rounds to use at the range to duplicate my carry ammo. The way I look at it, what kind of bullet I use will be one of my least worries if I am in the position of having to drop the hammer on a bad guy anyways.

 

[Jellybean]

You misread. I'm voting to ban the topic.

I wasn't seconding you, but your idea is even better.

WR Moore, with all the trials that Mr. Ayoob has been involved in why couldn't he have simply said that using handloads could cause you problems and given examples of where it had happened? In his original article he targeted the use of handloads and clearly implied they could send you to prison, just like the guy in the article. He made it appear as though he didn't receive a fair trial, but he did. He made it appear as though the prosecutor was malicious and the defense attorney was stupid, but they weren't. Why would he do that?

In the following debates on this and many other forums he stated he meant that not having exemplar evidence was the real reason for not using handloads. Does he think that every box of factory ammunition has a box of exemplar evidence sitting around waiting to be pulled of the shelf when needed? Does he think that factory ammunition can't be tampered with? He also mentioned that he has never known a court that accepted the data a defendant used for reloads in a self defense shooting, but could not give one example of when it ever happened when asked.

He is supposed to be an expert witness in the use of force, so why is he trying to sound like an expert witness in the field of ammunition and ballistics? He is also a professional writer and has written many other articles that were as ill informed as this one, but they do sell and he has to eat, so I can't say that I blame him as he has bills to pay too. But that doesn't mean he's right.

 

[mikld]

I don't think a ban on this topic is necessary as there are newer reloaders and many don't have the past experience with the opinions expressed. Banning a specific type of thread dealing with reloading/ammunition on a reloading forum smacks of "censorship/control". Normally, I'll just ignore the subject.....

 

[jim lock]

Soo if I carry an underpowered 44mag. killer load I'm ok. Next thing he'll talk about is an overpowered killer load CALIBER.
Jim

 

[WR Moore]

In the following debates on this and many other forums he stated he meant that not having exemplar evidence was the real reason for not using handloads. Does he think that every box of factory ammunition has a box of exemplar evidence sitting around waiting to be pulled of the shelf when needed?

Not every box, but you can bet your bippy that every lot of ammunition (and every box of ammo has a lot number on it) has a goodly supply of exemplars. They also have the records to reflect exactly, in great gory detail, what went into each lot. (Corporate lawyers can be your friends.*) If, for example, they happened to run out of exemplars and -using a case from my state- the state crime lab used the wrong lot for their comparison testing, they could use those records to provide expert evidence/testimony that the use of different powders in the 2 lots invalidated the gunshot residue testing that was the bedrock of the state's case. Or, that documentary evidence would allow someone like HP White Laboratory to do comparison testing and provide independent proof.

Ammunition isn't force? Sorry, couldn't pass it up.

*Winchester once had a case where one of their factory loads disassembled a model 94. Seems a decade or 2 of bouncing around in a pickup truck had turned the powder granules into flour. The burn rate was instantaneous. Winchesters exemplars/records-and a broken down extra round or 2 from the guys box of ammo -made it clear that Winchester was not at fault. Source: Charlie Petty.

 

[Wise_A]

I don't think a ban on this topic is necessary as there are newer reloaders and many don't have the past experience with the opinions expressed. Banning a specific type of thread dealing with reloading/ammunition on a reloading forum smacks of "censorship/control". Normally, I'll just ignore the subject.....

I dunno, I find the issue at least as contentious as a certain feature of modern S&W revolvers, with a similar rate of utter thread failure.

Hell, I once got infraction points for mentioning it as a negative, when we were discussing how we'd like a new release of a particular model. Not particularly "grrr"-y, just, "I'd rather have one of the originals."

And here we go with this morass of high-quality posting. There's so much factually incorrect nonsense being bandied about that I don't think it'd be helpful to a new reloader in the slightest.

*Winchester once had a case where one of their factory loads disassembled a model 94. Seems a decade or 2 of bouncing around in a pickup truck had turned the powder granules into flour. The burn rate was instantaneous. Winchesters exemplars/records-and a broken down extra round or 2 from the guys box of ammo -made it clear that Winchester was not at fault. Source: Charlie Petty.

This is relatively interesting--I've seen definite cases where that's exactly what happened, and I've seen testing where extensive vibratory tumbler time didn't alter the powder at all, even when checking velocities. I've even seen powder companies warn vehemently against it, and ballisticians employed by those same powder companies scoff at it--that the powder is too hard, and the burn rate retardants are impregnated into the powders, and can't be rubbed off.