badge 851
US Veteran
You meant a 1⅞" barrel didn't you?
Using +P Ammo in model 36
- Thread starter S&WREV123
- Start date
38-44HD45
Absent Comrade
Yes, David, I did. Good eye, and for me, D'OH!!
bmcgilvray
Member
I don't see that there is a justification at all because +P ammunition is a "tempest in a teapot" in my view. Ammunition makers simply aren't going to churn out a product that is patently unsafe. I've shot perhaps a total of a box of 158 grain +P ammunition in a Chief's Special that shipped from the factory in March of 1952 and that is what it is loaded with if I carry it. I'm not about to unnecessarily fire +P by the crate full through it but do see +P as a non-issue with steel-framed .38 Special Smith & Wesson revolvers.
In fact I'm going to drop that handy little Chief's into my jeans pocket right now in order to walk down and pick up my wife from her office. If y'all ever see a mushroom cloud arising from the northwestern part of the middle of Texas than you'll know that I was wrong and +P really is the nuclear nightmare that the internet seems to think it is.
Erich
Member
Anything that Bryan McGilvray has to say about .38 Specials is worth noting. 
bmcgilvray
Member
Hah! Noting perhaps, Erich.
Adhering to? Maybe not so much.
Went into the local gun shop recently to inquire about a part. While idling at the counter as the gunsmith was looking in bins and drawers for the part, I spied the corpse of a sad little Model 60 lying on a bench behind the counter. Asked permission to see it and asked if he knew the story behind the ruined revolver.
The gunsmith said that its owner claimed that it had been fired with factory +P+ ammunition and that was all the 'smith knew about its tale of woe. Didn't know what brand of ammunition or the bullet weight that was involved in the event.
The camera was in my shooting gear in the pickup so I asked if I could take a couple of photos.
This revolver grenaded badly. I'm reluctant to believe the Model 60's owner's story without documentation. This looks like a gross overload to me. I've never seen a J-Frame so busted.
The thing is (and this has been discussed on the Forum in the past) I've not yet seen documented proof that any factory +P ammunition caused a catastrophic failure in any steel-framed Smith & Wesson revolver .38 Special no matter it's age or size.
Any horror stories I've ever read about +P and damaged steel revolvers has been anecdotal in nature.
"Somebody heard that the uncle of their best bud blew up a Model...Bubba's brother-in-law's mechanic's mother was injured when... Gun Exploding Forum had a thread running...Down at the gun shop the counter help claimed that he saw..."
I'd have to pin down the facts to become a true believer in the detonating wonders, or even the battering wear of +P ammunition.
Handloads? Now that is a whole different breed of cat. I love handloading but one is on his own with regards to "performance loading."
Adhering to? Maybe not so much.
Went into the local gun shop recently to inquire about a part. While idling at the counter as the gunsmith was looking in bins and drawers for the part, I spied the corpse of a sad little Model 60 lying on a bench behind the counter. Asked permission to see it and asked if he knew the story behind the ruined revolver.
The gunsmith said that its owner claimed that it had been fired with factory +P+ ammunition and that was all the 'smith knew about its tale of woe. Didn't know what brand of ammunition or the bullet weight that was involved in the event.
The camera was in my shooting gear in the pickup so I asked if I could take a couple of photos.
This revolver grenaded badly. I'm reluctant to believe the Model 60's owner's story without documentation. This looks like a gross overload to me. I've never seen a J-Frame so busted.
The thing is (and this has been discussed on the Forum in the past) I've not yet seen documented proof that any factory +P ammunition caused a catastrophic failure in any steel-framed Smith & Wesson revolver .38 Special no matter it's age or size.
Any horror stories I've ever read about +P and damaged steel revolvers has been anecdotal in nature.
"Somebody heard that the uncle of their best bud blew up a Model...Bubba's brother-in-law's mechanic's mother was injured when... Gun Exploding Forum had a thread running...Down at the gun shop the counter help claimed that he saw..."
I'd have to pin down the facts to become a true believer in the detonating wonders, or even the battering wear of +P ammunition.
Handloads? Now that is a whole different breed of cat. I love handloading but one is on his own with regards to "performance loading."
I was told many years ago by a gun shop owner that he knew of a few
early md 60s that were damaged by Super Vel factory loads. He
insisted that the stainless used in the 60 was softer and less tough
and durable than the carbon steel of the 36. He claimed that S&W
stainless revolvers would shoot loose faster than carbon steel models.
He claimed that he had proven the difference in hardness by using
a file on the inside edge of the grip frames several times. I was also
told by a retired cop friend that back in the days when they all used
revolvers that the S&W 66 would loosen up much faster than the 19
with the same amount of firing. Don't know. I have a 60-7 and two
37-2s. I plan to stick to standard pressure in the 37s and no more
than +P in the 60. Can't believe that higher pressure loads would
compensate for poor shot placement at close range.
early md 60s that were damaged by Super Vel factory loads. He
insisted that the stainless used in the 60 was softer and less tough
and durable than the carbon steel of the 36. He claimed that S&W
stainless revolvers would shoot loose faster than carbon steel models.
He claimed that he had proven the difference in hardness by using
a file on the inside edge of the grip frames several times. I was also
told by a retired cop friend that back in the days when they all used
revolvers that the S&W 66 would loosen up much faster than the 19
with the same amount of firing. Don't know. I have a 60-7 and two
37-2s. I plan to stick to standard pressure in the 37s and no more
than +P in the 60. Can't believe that higher pressure loads would
compensate for poor shot placement at close range.
David Sinko
Member
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but much of the standard "non +P" ammo out there is loaded with bullets that are so soft and/or to such a low velocity that proper shot placement might not be good enough; if heavy clothing or an arm gets in the way of your otherwise perfectly placed shot your bullet just might run out of steam before it can get the job done. Sure, the old standard swaged 158 gr. LRN has killed a lot of people, but it has also gotten a lot of people killed by failing to penetrate adequately.
Some factory loaded 158 gr. JHP has done less than 700 FPS in my 2" Model 64. That's downright pathetic, and there's no excuse for it. I can safely exceed that by 200 FPS in my "weak sister" 64, and by an even wider margin in my Model 60. And it's interesting to note that my 9mm (J Frame) Model 940 can exceed the ballistics of most if not all of the factory loaded "high performance" .38 Special factory loads on the market. And the 9mm can do it with considerably less case capacity than the .38 Special, with the same 2" barrel.
Much factory loaded .38 Special ammo leaves a lot to be desired, including the +P. It's too bad that the +P designation still creates so many misconceptions.
Dave Sinko
Some factory loaded 158 gr. JHP has done less than 700 FPS in my 2" Model 64. That's downright pathetic, and there's no excuse for it. I can safely exceed that by 200 FPS in my "weak sister" 64, and by an even wider margin in my Model 60. And it's interesting to note that my 9mm (J Frame) Model 940 can exceed the ballistics of most if not all of the factory loaded "high performance" .38 Special factory loads on the market. And the 9mm can do it with considerably less case capacity than the .38 Special, with the same 2" barrel.
Much factory loaded .38 Special ammo leaves a lot to be desired, including the +P. It's too bad that the +P designation still creates so many misconceptions.
Dave Sinko
After owning a chronograph for many years I agree with what
you say Dave, especially about the poor quality of factory
loaded 38 sp ammo, along with other calibers. I should have
been more specific. I really meant standard and +P pressure
hand loads. I also have a high regard for the 9mm but i'm
not ready to pay the going prices for J-frame 9s.
stiab
US Veteran
I know that's his story, but I doubt it very seriously. I suspect that was his cover for a double charged reload. I bought my first M60 in 1970, and fired untold numbers of Treasury loads and Super Vels in it, and it is still going strong today.
JC4013
Member
A long time ago I was given a little reloading kit and before I really understood how to measure gunpowder, I loaded that .38 case about as full as it would go and still seat the bullet. I put those rounds in a little .36, went to the backyard and pulled the trigger. Man, did my ears ring. It may have bulged the cylinder a little, but I'm not even sure about that. It might have already been that way. That little gun and I spent a lot of time together and I used plenty of +P and +P+ in it, mostly because that was what the department provided.
At the range my first action was to draw the revolver and discharge the five loads I had been carrying, then go to practice ammo and finish the workout. Drawing and firing just as if I was in harm's way was sometimes a real eye-opener and very humbling. At the end of the session I'd fire another cylinder of duty loads, clean it and load it again before doing on duty.
That ensured I always had fresh ammunition in the wheel and I knew the point of aim. For what it's worth.....
At the range my first action was to draw the revolver and discharge the five loads I had been carrying, then go to practice ammo and finish the workout. Drawing and firing just as if I was in harm's way was sometimes a real eye-opener and very humbling. At the end of the session I'd fire another cylinder of duty loads, clean it and load it again before doing on duty.
That ensured I always had fresh ammunition in the wheel and I knew the point of aim. For what it's worth.....
38-44HD45
Absent Comrade
I have a friend who once owned an early no-dash Model 60 that some worthy had reamed to take .357 ammo. He shot a cylinder full of 125gr. .357s through it before I found out and "suggested" that he shouldn't do it again. He said, "That's fine with me. It kicks too hard, anyway." He was shooting it with factory service stocks, so I'm sure it stung some. It did not blow up, nor even bulge the cylinder. The 60 Bryan posted photos of sustained something worse than a double charge, it appears to me. Factory +P+ typically spikes pressures in the low end of .357 territory, and something more than that was suffered by that sad little gun.
badge 851
US Veteran
Your advice is worth a lot more than $0.02 IMHO.
mkk41
US Veteran
One thing to keep in mind is that factory loaded SAAMI-spec .38 Special +P ammo is above industry STANDARD pressure specs (set low for old and low quality guns), it is still well below .38 Special MAXIMUM pressure level , and much lower than proof loads.
