comtedeloach
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Nobody told him "No, I won't throw it in the dirt stomp on it"? That's the big takeaway here.
Valid training or stupid bravado?
- Thread starter Rastoff
- Start date
A tool is designed for use, in some cases hard use. This goes for any tool, be it a ratchet or a handgun. Over time, they're gonna show their use. That said, there's a big difference between normal wear and abuse. There are other ways this "instructor" could show students that they're not using Wedgewood china. But, being a cynic by nature, (unless I knew his bona fides), just because a guy wears a tight t-shirt, camo pants, a drop leg holster and barks like a D.I. doesn't mean he's qualified.
Protected One
Member
As you know, I was enrolled in that EXACT class at Tactical Response in Tennessee last spring. It was to be taught by James Yeager himself (I even paid an extra $50 for that). While I don't personally approve of his constant use of profanity or overall attitude, my research into the class showed that it had some beneficial teaching, and I am always looking for that. The class was cancelled due to a "scheduling conflict", and I was offered a refund or enrollment in a future class. I chose a refund but still had a hard time getting my money back. It wasn't until my credit card company got involved that the refund showed up.
Having said that I can tell you that their reasoning for having students drop their (unloaded) guns is rational. Some gun owners treat their firearms - even their carry gun, as though they were fine china. Protecting them from getting a nick or scrape. The fact is, that in a real self defense encounter there is a very real possibility that the gun may be dropped, kicked, or otherwise dinged up. By having the students experience this in a controlled environment it removes that from the back of their mind, thus freeing them to view the gun as what it is - a TOOL to be used in their defense or others.
Having said that, the instructor in the OP's over-zealousness is inexcusable.
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Protected One
Member
You guys are getting way off into the weeds on this tool/weapon thing.
I've never heard of anyone being charged with assault with a deadly tool.
Let's move along....
Have you ever heard of someone being charged with assault with a deadly weapon...which was a garden hoe? I have. MOST people call those tools.
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I saw one of those merc wanna-bee instructors on Utube. He
was leaning on target with left hand and drawing and shooting
Target with right. Shot himself in the leg. A lot of these instructors get their experience by going to classes. Never been
shot at in their life, while they may be able to instruct in safety
and marksman ship, what makes them a expert in gun fighting?
was leaning on target with left hand and drawing and shooting
Target with right. Shot himself in the leg. A lot of these instructors get their experience by going to classes. Never been
shot at in their life, while they may be able to instruct in safety
and marksman ship, what makes them a expert in gun fighting?
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
Protected One,
I really wish you had attended that class. It would be extremely valuable to hear your first hand experience.
Dropping a gun on the ground is not necessary to alter how someone thinks about it. All it takes is lots of use. Like anything, i.e. a new car, we treat things with great care when new or if we don't use them a lot. However, once an item gets used as intended, we tend to worry less about normal wear.
Dropping a gun on the ground in one class won't do that. Those who already think of their guns as something to be used, won't care. Their minds are already in the desired frame of thought. Those who treat their guns like china, will only be angry. This will serve to reduce their ability to learn the other training.
I would not have done it.
Other things that would have caused me to leave:
A live person standing down range during live fire.
Excessive cussing. There's just no reason for that.
Belittling a student for any reason.
Insulting a student for choice of firearm.
I really wish you had attended that class. It would be extremely valuable to hear your first hand experience.
Dropping a gun on the ground is not necessary to alter how someone thinks about it. All it takes is lots of use. Like anything, i.e. a new car, we treat things with great care when new or if we don't use them a lot. However, once an item gets used as intended, we tend to worry less about normal wear.
Dropping a gun on the ground in one class won't do that. Those who already think of their guns as something to be used, won't care. Their minds are already in the desired frame of thought. Those who treat their guns like china, will only be angry. This will serve to reduce their ability to learn the other training.
I would not have done it.
Other things that would have caused me to leave:
A live person standing down range during live fire.
Excessive cussing. There's just no reason for that.
Belittling a student for any reason.
Insulting a student for choice of firearm.
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Doug M.
Member
If I bought a gun that had wear, and considered honorable wear from real use, that's one thing. Lots of folks here take that view. If I wanted to refinish it for some reason, that's one thing. My M58 is customized for me, and that included an aftermarket finish. Some members here would have a major league disagreement with it - as is their right.
HOWEVER: It is one thing to make it part of the course of instruction, as it should be, that the gun is a tool needed for a purpose, and that it will have wear. That's no different than a hammer or a screwdriver, or car ... but to do something abusive, and to tell students to do as part of the curriculum? Not in this lifetime. That's not an instructor - that's a first rate *******. I've been to plenty of classes with one instructor (besides my academy, advanced classes, in-service training, etc) in particular. No idea how many hours of contact time in all of these classes. I cannot think of ANY instructor worth the title who would do or approve of that.
Admittedly, Yeager is poorly thought of by a lot of competent and honorable people I respect, and I would never consider attending a class of his. Not because of silly concerns like profanity (my mouth is pretty nasty in its natural state, too - "mother" is a prefix), but because he is not considered a professional or role model.
HOWEVER: It is one thing to make it part of the course of instruction, as it should be, that the gun is a tool needed for a purpose, and that it will have wear. That's no different than a hammer or a screwdriver, or car ... but to do something abusive, and to tell students to do as part of the curriculum? Not in this lifetime. That's not an instructor - that's a first rate *******. I've been to plenty of classes with one instructor (besides my academy, advanced classes, in-service training, etc) in particular. No idea how many hours of contact time in all of these classes. I cannot think of ANY instructor worth the title who would do or approve of that.
Admittedly, Yeager is poorly thought of by a lot of competent and honorable people I respect, and I would never consider attending a class of his. Not because of silly concerns like profanity (my mouth is pretty nasty in its natural state, too - "mother" is a prefix), but because he is not considered a professional or role model.
Fastbolt
Member
Thanks for the update Rastoff.
Fastbolt
Member
If that's something an instructor feels is necessary, for whatever reason, then it can be demonstrated with a 'loaner' gun used and/or provided by the instructor for that purpose, under carefully planned and controlled conditions. Student safety is paramount, at all times.
That also removes the understandable concern a student might have with intentionally and recklessly abusing a personal weapon.
It also involves a weapon which can be periodically inspected by the instructor, and any on-staff armorer.
However, just imagine trying to explain an obstructed bore incident if someone plows their muzzle into something that remains in the bore.
FWIW, I'd not suggest students in any class I'd teach deliberately toss dirt or sand in their eyes, to "simulate" what could happen in an actual incident, or get them "used" to it happening, either.
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OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
An excellent point. I don't know why I hadn't thought of it before. I'm sure the response from TR would be something along the lines of, "Well, it hasn't happened." Yet another example of the ends justifying the means.
Exactly!FWIW, I'd not suggest students in any class I'd teach deliberately toss dirt or sand in their eyes, to "simulate" what could happen in an actual incident, or get them "used" to it happening, either.
ChattanoogaPhil
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When I read the first post, this is who I thought of immediately. It reminded me of a two-day course I took from him and his underlings, of which I stayed maybe six hours and then drove home.
One part of the "exercises" (if that word can be used) was to throw your pistol on the ground in front of you and do something from there. I took a pass on that, and left soon thereafter. What a waste of money, gas, and most importantly, time. Had Jaeger stomped that SIG and shot himself, well..... Let's just say the good Lord loves irony.
Even without reading 72 replies I have my own simple comment.....
Nobody should abuse tools. As a rule, we don't throw hammers and screwdrivers on the ground, either. Cars are transportation tools - people clean them constantly, and repair nicks and dents and bumps.
Why not treat a pretty gun with the same respect, even if it is a tool?
Nobody should abuse tools. As a rule, we don't throw hammers and screwdrivers on the ground, either. Cars are transportation tools - people clean them constantly, and repair nicks and dents and bumps.
Why not treat a pretty gun with the same respect, even if it is a tool?
szuppo
US Veteran
Yeager was probably hiding in a ditch once the lead flew.
The Instructor is a total TOOL. Sad thing is that the unknowing attend these types of Training Classes from idiots that have no business teaching remedial basket weaving.
The Instructor is a total TOOL. Sad thing is that the unknowing attend these types of Training Classes from idiots that have no business teaching remedial basket weaving.
Protected One
Member
True, but when a hammer, screwdriver or other tool IS dropped the owner doesn't normally pick it up and lament the fact that it now has a "nick" in the handle either. It is commonly regarded as something that "goes with the territory". Not true of many gun owners attitude toward their CARRY gun (not talking about safe queens).
I've read many post on this site where the poster is asking for advise on how to remove a scratch from the slide of their CARRY gun, or talk of replacing the grips because one panel got scratched somehow. To each his own, but IMO it's ridiculous....for a CARRY gun.
The comparison to a car is inappropriate as well, as cars are not only a means of transportation from one place to another but are meant to be seen, and thus SHOULD look as good as the owner can have it. CARRY guns are not normally to be seen until its time for "business"...at which point looks won't matter.
silentflyer
Member
Someone would be buying me a replacement firearm, or talking with my lawyer...
Kronos
Member
Meh, big dumb arse, probably comes across like the 400 lb fat kid in camo who thinks himself a "tactical commando" 
That said I'm harsh as hell on my guns, I've given up on blued anything as you hand one to me and tell me to carry it for a year? You'll be getting a rusty hunk of steel back!
So I dunna need to throw them around, just let me carry'em.
That said I'm harsh as hell on my guns, I've given up on blued anything as you hand one to me and tell me to carry it for a year? You'll be getting a rusty hunk of steel back!
So I dunna need to throw them around, just let me carry'em.
Screwdrivers are a tool, and they are made to be used and indeed are tough. But, if you abuse it, say trying to use one as a serious prybar instead of using a bar, you can end up bending it and ruining it. I've seen a brand new mud knife, a tool made to use on a regular basis, dropped on the ground by accident, on the corner of the blade, which bent it, and ruined it. Go and drop a power drill on the ground repeatedly for no reason, see how much good it does it, and it doesn't have to look good either. Go ahead and take a good power or even a hand saw, throw it into the sand, and then stomp on it. I bet you made function better, now didn't you? One time at a party I held up here, I smashed a big old TV with my Lincoln Mark V to show off how tough the bumper was (I believe it is the heaviest commercial bumper put on a car), and sure enough, it was tough enough for the TV. Then I had to replace a brake hose that got cut.
There is a vast and wide difference between hard use and absolute abuse. Guns are made to take regular hard, even extreme use, but not to take extended abuse. Your combat handgun is designed to have debris and sand get into it and still function. That doesn't mean that doing so to test it out doesn't cause undo wear and tear on your gun, that if you purposely introduce foreign materials into it and abuse it constantly to prove how tough it is won't decrease its life expectancy, degrade its overall quality, or ruin it outright at some point. You firearm is made to take tough impacts, but don't be surprised that if you keep beating the living hell out of it you won't cause failure of parts or hurt the gun in some way.
Just because something is tough and made for extreme conditions does not make it indestructable, or even un-degradable. I saw a internet image saying "Pedestrians should not confuse right of way with immortality", and the same applies to guns, in the fact that just because they are designed to take some abuse does not mean you SHOULD abuse them, and that abuse has no consequences. If you do horseplay with your guns, and purposely abuse them, you degrade them, and make them less capable when you need them. Save the big bumps, impacts, dirt, sand, and general abuse for the real life scenarios when they are unavoidable.
People who brag about abusing their weapons are like people who abuse a lot of things, they never talk about the damage. If the people who pull these little stunts break parts, or cause major damage in need of a gun smith or armorer, they won't tell you about it, because that will ruin the mystique of guns are indestructible, and make them look like the hotdogging fools they are.
Abuse is spiritual degradation of the weapon as something sacred, and physical degradation of something you carry to preserve and protect life, making it of inferior quality for when you do need it.
People who abuse tools, guns, cars, ect., all have the same problems of owning worn out, abused, low quality junk. They take what was a nice thing and end up with garbage. People who purposely throw down screwdrivers and stomps on them is not someone I want to trust with any of my property, and in the long run, I don't want to own anything he's owned before either.
There is a vast and wide difference between hard use and absolute abuse. Guns are made to take regular hard, even extreme use, but not to take extended abuse. Your combat handgun is designed to have debris and sand get into it and still function. That doesn't mean that doing so to test it out doesn't cause undo wear and tear on your gun, that if you purposely introduce foreign materials into it and abuse it constantly to prove how tough it is won't decrease its life expectancy, degrade its overall quality, or ruin it outright at some point. You firearm is made to take tough impacts, but don't be surprised that if you keep beating the living hell out of it you won't cause failure of parts or hurt the gun in some way.
Just because something is tough and made for extreme conditions does not make it indestructable, or even un-degradable. I saw a internet image saying "Pedestrians should not confuse right of way with immortality", and the same applies to guns, in the fact that just because they are designed to take some abuse does not mean you SHOULD abuse them, and that abuse has no consequences. If you do horseplay with your guns, and purposely abuse them, you degrade them, and make them less capable when you need them. Save the big bumps, impacts, dirt, sand, and general abuse for the real life scenarios when they are unavoidable.
People who brag about abusing their weapons are like people who abuse a lot of things, they never talk about the damage. If the people who pull these little stunts break parts, or cause major damage in need of a gun smith or armorer, they won't tell you about it, because that will ruin the mystique of guns are indestructible, and make them look like the hotdogging fools they are.
Abuse is spiritual degradation of the weapon as something sacred, and physical degradation of something you carry to preserve and protect life, making it of inferior quality for when you do need it.
People who abuse tools, guns, cars, ect., all have the same problems of owning worn out, abused, low quality junk. They take what was a nice thing and end up with garbage. People who purposely throw down screwdrivers and stomps on them is not someone I want to trust with any of my property, and in the long run, I don't want to own anything he's owned before either.
