Yep.. X2 for sure..
VERY Concerned - First Post too...:(
- Thread starter vzdude
- Start date
Yep.. X2 for sure..
Well.....my last conversation with the "numbers" guy did not go so well. It sounds as if I will be keeping the gun. He has told me 3 things, to only change his mind / story each time. First off he says " I wanna buy that gun and give you another!" O.k.....I can understand that this is not exactly what he meant to say, so I agree to a new gun. Secondly he says to get online and pick out whichever gun I want, and that he will ship it to a S&W dealer, where we can make an even exchange. When I call to tell him which gun I have chosen, he says...We CANT do THAT gun.......its too expensive! Take note....he fails to call when promised, fails to return emails. I have been the instigator of most of our conversations, after his initial call. Finally we agree on a mediocre price replacement that he agrees to send to a S&W dealer near me. Third, I get a call from someone in customer service that is trying to explain that he was wrong in telling me that he would send a gun to a dealer for an "exchange", and that they will not be doing that............I let that guy go, and immediately called the "numbers" guy back and explained my dissatisfaction with this whole ordeal. He took offense, duly noted, and I tried to explain AGAIN, why I was unwilling to ship them a gun, that I own, that THEY say does not exist. It's like a car from General Motors........would you just load it up on a car hauler and HOPE that they send you another one? Not me......this guy and his customer service skills lack severely. I wonder if they will ever call again.....until then, I have about 350 rounds ready to put through it this weekend! Until this point, it has not been fired. Screw that! I buy guns to shoot, not to let set in the safe!
I'll chime in on this one.
I've read the entire thread and I'm sorry to hear about your ordeal. The prospect of getting 'taken' for the price of a quality rifle is unenviable. I'm also sorry to hear about your communication issues with whoever you've been dealing with at S&W. The experience you've relayed here is definitely out of the norm for S&W service.
There have been a number of suggestions repeated here in this thread on two separate matters and I'd like to echo both.
First: Regardless of your experience with the individual who promised the dealer-side exchange sight unseen S&W may be trusted completely on this matter. In fact you're almost certain to end up getting what you thought you had paid for once they're finished inspecting the gun given the serial number issue (this is not a small issue). The lower receiver is suspect given the caliber marking alone for reasons already stated in earlier in this thread. What you have now is almost certainly a 'franken-gun'. The upper is suspect given the lack of barrel markings - again, almost certainly not a S&W upper. If you send them the gun the very worst thing that could happen is that they inspect it, find no issue that warrants pulling it from circulation, and they ship it back to you. Note: THEY WILL NOT STEAL YOUR WEAPON. For the minor inconvenience of having it gone for a short period of time you will almost certainly receive a new M&P15 replacement that most closely matches the form factor of the rifle you have now.
Since the origin of the receivers and the barrel (and perhaps the BCG given what we've seen so far) cannot be confirmed without sending it to S&W you have no idea what standards were followed in the manufacturing of these parts. Best case - it's a functioning 'franken-gun' that will serve you well. Worst case - one or more parts are reject QC parts someone grabbed before they were destroyed and used them in the assembly of a gun for a quick buck (this might be one possible explanation for the lack of markings on the barrel) and firing the weapon results in a kaboom. Likely? Perhaps not, but it's not out of the question either. I URGE YOU TO RECONSIDER ALLOWING S&W TO INSPECT THIS WEAPON. If there's anything unsafe about the gun they will replace it. If, at worst, they send it back you can then shoot the weapon with confidence knowing it has been inspected by a known quantity and has been deemed safe. They'll also be able to tell you what the barrel is chambered for.
Second: If you don't send it back to S&W you should at least find a reputable gunsmith with a solid working knowledge of the AR platform (preferably someone who has received armorers training for the AR platform) and have them inspect the weapon thoroughly to ensure that it is safe to fire. Unfortunately, in contrast to the free service that S&W will provide, a local gunsmith is going to charge you for this work. If you just cannot see fit to send the weapon to S&W I would urge you to take this step before firing that weapon. There just isn't enough information to be confident that in-spec parts were used in its construction or that it was assembled properly. At the very least you'll want to know what the barrel is chambered for (three most likely chamberings are .223, .223 Wylde, and 5.56 NATO -- you can shoot .223 in a 5.56 chamber but you cannot shoot 5.56 in a .223 chamber, 5.56 will very likely cause malfunctions in a .223 Wylde chamber).
Since the gun has turned out to be suspect you should be sure to have it inspected before you fire it.
Again - sorry to hear about your troubles. Best of luck in whatever course of action you take and please keep us updated.
I've read the entire thread and I'm sorry to hear about your ordeal. The prospect of getting 'taken' for the price of a quality rifle is unenviable. I'm also sorry to hear about your communication issues with whoever you've been dealing with at S&W. The experience you've relayed here is definitely out of the norm for S&W service.
There have been a number of suggestions repeated here in this thread on two separate matters and I'd like to echo both.
First: Regardless of your experience with the individual who promised the dealer-side exchange sight unseen S&W may be trusted completely on this matter. In fact you're almost certain to end up getting what you thought you had paid for once they're finished inspecting the gun given the serial number issue (this is not a small issue). The lower receiver is suspect given the caliber marking alone for reasons already stated in earlier in this thread. What you have now is almost certainly a 'franken-gun'. The upper is suspect given the lack of barrel markings - again, almost certainly not a S&W upper. If you send them the gun the very worst thing that could happen is that they inspect it, find no issue that warrants pulling it from circulation, and they ship it back to you. Note: THEY WILL NOT STEAL YOUR WEAPON. For the minor inconvenience of having it gone for a short period of time you will almost certainly receive a new M&P15 replacement that most closely matches the form factor of the rifle you have now.
Since the origin of the receivers and the barrel (and perhaps the BCG given what we've seen so far) cannot be confirmed without sending it to S&W you have no idea what standards were followed in the manufacturing of these parts. Best case - it's a functioning 'franken-gun' that will serve you well. Worst case - one or more parts are reject QC parts someone grabbed before they were destroyed and used them in the assembly of a gun for a quick buck (this might be one possible explanation for the lack of markings on the barrel) and firing the weapon results in a kaboom. Likely? Perhaps not, but it's not out of the question either. I URGE YOU TO RECONSIDER ALLOWING S&W TO INSPECT THIS WEAPON. If there's anything unsafe about the gun they will replace it. If, at worst, they send it back you can then shoot the weapon with confidence knowing it has been inspected by a known quantity and has been deemed safe. They'll also be able to tell you what the barrel is chambered for.
Second: If you don't send it back to S&W you should at least find a reputable gunsmith with a solid working knowledge of the AR platform (preferably someone who has received armorers training for the AR platform) and have them inspect the weapon thoroughly to ensure that it is safe to fire. Unfortunately, in contrast to the free service that S&W will provide, a local gunsmith is going to charge you for this work. If you just cannot see fit to send the weapon to S&W I would urge you to take this step before firing that weapon. There just isn't enough information to be confident that in-spec parts were used in its construction or that it was assembled properly. At the very least you'll want to know what the barrel is chambered for (three most likely chamberings are .223, .223 Wylde, and 5.56 NATO -- you can shoot .223 in a 5.56 chamber but you cannot shoot 5.56 in a .223 chamber, 5.56 will very likely cause malfunctions in a .223 Wylde chamber).
Since the gun has turned out to be suspect you should be sure to have it inspected before you fire it.
Again - sorry to hear about your troubles. Best of luck in whatever course of action you take and please keep us updated.
I can't believe you haven't sent this gun back to Smith... After all that has been said here.. I also have my doubts about these so called conversations you've had. You've asked for help and not taken one suggestion. And now are attempting to raise credibility questions with S&W,like it's their fault, when this problem has nothing to do with them from your story here. I take major offense with this whole situation, take your gun and shoot it and stop torturing S&W reps. If you ligitimitly wanted to get to the bottom of this, you would have sent it in weeks ago, if you are just looking for the homerun with a new gun for your possible poor transaction with a private party... shame on you..
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Darryl Garvey is who I have been speaking to, for the record. He has "mis-spoke" several times now, and I have lost any faith in him in doing the right thing. His lack of communication skills or failure to communicate is my main reason for not having much faith. I called S&W in order to find out some history of the gun. HE called me wanting to get it back. I am willing to work with them, but not him. Not anymore. I have had 3 different, reputable, gun store owners, and one gun smith all tell me NOT to send it . If they want it, they will make some kind of arrangements to accommodate me on my terms. If not.......I'll deal with the consequences. Thanks for all the info guys, but I gotta stick with my gut on this one. They tell me this gun never existed, so how easy would it be for me to prove that it does if I don't have it anymore? Then I send it to them, on whose word? that I'll get another one, or this one back? after my experiences so far? Surely you can put yourself in my shoes............
It's possible that what you have is an illegally imported counterfit. We seized about two dozen looking very similar to what you show in your pics almost a year ago now with a couple different manufacturer logos. Not saying that yours is for a fact an illegally imported counterfit, and not trying to imply you or the person you bought it from did anything wrong, but if I were you i'd not keep it if I could not verify the pedigree as legal if I even had a hint that it might be an illegal import.
If you hold on to it, and if it is an illegal import, and you have any reason to suspect (which obviously you do from your writings) it might not be a legal, you can be held legally responsible. To my knowledge S&W has not authorized anyone to "copy" their weapons (if i'm wrong on this someone correct me please).
Your best bet is to confirm the pedigree of the weapon first. If S&W has no record of the S/N (and i'll bet they don't), if your not going to return it to S&W i'd recommend that you contact the BATF, explain the situation, and seek help in determing the pedigree if it can be determined, but i'll tell you right now if it is a counterfit they will most likely confiscate the weapon but thats better then you being caught with it in the future and going to jail over it.
There are any number of sceinarios, i've seen all sorts of weird things.
It could be the person you got it from got hold of some countefit lowers and put it together for sale. This is not illegal if the person is licensened or registered to manufacturer a firearm, but using the S&W logo would make it a countefit if they were not licensened to use the logo. Its also possible that you simply have a mis-marked rejected parts version where someone has gotten hold of rejected parts from various S&W suppliers (they should have been destroyed). Its not that the parts are really bad, they could have just been mis-marked and that was the reason they were rejected. In which case the weapon was probably illegally manufactured anyway because the use of the S&W logo implies it was manufactured by S&W and it does not appear to be of S&W production.
It could be, and this is one of those "slim and none" chances, that it is a very early S&W production for the model, and markings changed later, that was not intended to make it to market in which case S&W may or may not have a record of the serial number (the weapon should have been destroyed) and you said they didn't. This is the most unlikely sceinario as i'm sure that S&W does not sell weapons "out the back door" for non-marketed weapons. Its possible that the weapon was an S&W manufacturer and the S/N failed to get recorded some way or another (its happened by accident for other manufacturers), sending it back to S&W would allow them to verify it as one of theirs and properly record the S/N, and they would probably swap it out for you with a current production model.
It could also be a one time thing where S&W did make the weapon and placed it in the market and the weapon is a one-of-a-kind thing that was mismarked, in which case it could end up being a collectors item worth something. However, you would think that S&W would have a record of the S/N. I know at one point the M&P 15 was outsourced for manufacture/shipping/sales so a mis-marking could have happened and its possible in that case a S/N was not recorded at S&W but at the outsourced manufacturer instead, so sending it to S&W would help verify this.
Another thing is that it is a S&W weapon but it was a special unique manufacturer for a specific special client and the S/N does not show up in the normal S/N database. I know that a couple of weapon manufacturers maintain seperate databases for S/N's for specific special client products that are not available to the public. Not sure if S&W does this or not.
Now, the weapon uses the S&W trademark logo, and they tell you there is no record of the weapon, if they did not manufacture the weapon then legally the weapon does not exist. However, you do not own the weapon either regardless of what you paid for it because you can not legally own counterfit unlicensened items, and since the S&W logo appears on the weapon S&W is actually the legal owner of the weapon by presence of their trademark logo because they own the trademark logo. So they can demand that you return the weapon to them, at your expense (but they might work out something with you), as its legally their property if its countefit and uses their logo.
If S&W is willing to take responsibility for the weapon and swap it out for you, and will put that in writing (unlikely) or verify for you thats what is going to happen, then you have nothing to worry about by sending it to them and you end up with a new weapon of which your sure of the pedigree and a warranty. However, if they want it back and will not swap it out then its most likely a counterfit and if you don't send it to them they will simply contact the BATF (or Customs) who will end up seizing the weapon anyway and "possibly" (probably actually as they take a very dim view on illegal firearms) arresting and prosecuting you. The BATF (or Customs) will find you if they want, there are many methods but they will most likely subponea the S&W forums for your IP address and use that to find your ISP then subponea the ISP for the internet access account holder name which will lead them to you. If it is a counterfit or has been imported or manufactured unlawfully, you don't have any terms and no one is under any obligations to make arrangements to accommodate you. It is your legal obligation to verify and ensure, without a doubt, the weapon you posess is legal. This means that if you have any doubt as to the authenticity what so ever, you are legally required to verify the legality of the firearm before retaining posession of it, and if it is not a legal firearm you have a legal obligation to surrender the firearm to a legal entity such as law enforcement....OR.... the owner of the trademarked items used in a counterfit which in this case is S&W (it is their trademarked logo), so no, S&W does not need to meet your terms. If it is counterfit or has been imported or manufactured unlawfully, you have a legal obligation to act in such a manner as to abide by the law and not retain such a weapon. If the weapon is counterfit or has been imported or manufactured unlawfully, and you intentionally retain the weapon, you are in posession of an illegal weapon and although the consequences for posessing such vary depending on the circumstances, if you are prepared to deal with the consequences of fines and jail time and never being able to posess another firearm then good luck. I would not depend on the "reputable" gun store owners and gunsmith to decide your future.
Posession of the weapon by its self is not illegal, but posession of the weapon if you have doubts as to its legality is illegal. If your caught with it you will be required to show it was indeed legal and if you can't do that then your out of luck.
If it were me, i'd choose the least injurious method here and send it to S&W and let them authenticate it. That way the reasonable responsible thing was done and removes the penalties for you. If they don't swap it out then your out a weapon and your money (unless you can get the person you bought it from to refund you), but your not going to risk jail time or fines or attorney fees which will cost you a lot more.
Oh, something else. Look at the bolt. Are the letters "L" and "MP" stamped on the bolt? If so then its an LMT manufacture outsource and they were bad for not sending the S/N over to S&W at one point. I know also that at a few different points the letter prefix for the M&P 15 serial number changed - it was "SM xxxxxx" then it changed to "SW xxxxxx" (the SW did not have a '/' in it like yours does which also makes me think its possibly a counterfit), and now its just "SN xxxxxx" (Its SN on the one I got - no '/'). Try getting S&W to check the serial number without the '/' and see what comes up, i'll bet they don't have a record of that either (which is why its a generally safe bet to guess right off that S&W did not manufacture the weapon because the M&P series did not "usually" have a '/' in the letter prefix for the serial number and if it was outsourced then it could have been mis-marked that way.) Its also possible that a company commissioned S&W to produce the weapon for them, in which case it might have a different serial number prefix, for example the "S/W" like yours has - I know a company called TALO Distributors had S&W produce a run of the M&P 15 series for a surplus 5.45 x 39 round and some of those had the "S/W" prefix on the serial numbers with the S&W logo stamped into the lower on the mag well but the other markings would have been in the regular S&W locations like the caliber on the barrel, however, to my knowledge the 5.56/.223 models of the M&P were never made in a "distributor only" run as those are core components of the line of rifles and if it was something like this the serial number would have been recorded at S&W before the weapons were transfered to the special run distributor, but you will need to send it to S&W for them to make sure.
If S&W does authenticate the weapon for you, make sure you get a letter of authenticity from them - it will cost you (I think) about $50.00 to get the letter but get it and hang on to it. The only way they can verifiy the authenticity is for you to return the weapon to them.
If you hold on to it, and if it is an illegal import, and you have any reason to suspect (which obviously you do from your writings) it might not be a legal, you can be held legally responsible. To my knowledge S&W has not authorized anyone to "copy" their weapons (if i'm wrong on this someone correct me please).
Your best bet is to confirm the pedigree of the weapon first. If S&W has no record of the S/N (and i'll bet they don't), if your not going to return it to S&W i'd recommend that you contact the BATF, explain the situation, and seek help in determing the pedigree if it can be determined, but i'll tell you right now if it is a counterfit they will most likely confiscate the weapon but thats better then you being caught with it in the future and going to jail over it.
There are any number of sceinarios, i've seen all sorts of weird things.
It could be the person you got it from got hold of some countefit lowers and put it together for sale. This is not illegal if the person is licensened or registered to manufacturer a firearm, but using the S&W logo would make it a countefit if they were not licensened to use the logo. Its also possible that you simply have a mis-marked rejected parts version where someone has gotten hold of rejected parts from various S&W suppliers (they should have been destroyed). Its not that the parts are really bad, they could have just been mis-marked and that was the reason they were rejected. In which case the weapon was probably illegally manufactured anyway because the use of the S&W logo implies it was manufactured by S&W and it does not appear to be of S&W production.
It could be, and this is one of those "slim and none" chances, that it is a very early S&W production for the model, and markings changed later, that was not intended to make it to market in which case S&W may or may not have a record of the serial number (the weapon should have been destroyed) and you said they didn't. This is the most unlikely sceinario as i'm sure that S&W does not sell weapons "out the back door" for non-marketed weapons. Its possible that the weapon was an S&W manufacturer and the S/N failed to get recorded some way or another (its happened by accident for other manufacturers), sending it back to S&W would allow them to verify it as one of theirs and properly record the S/N, and they would probably swap it out for you with a current production model.
It could also be a one time thing where S&W did make the weapon and placed it in the market and the weapon is a one-of-a-kind thing that was mismarked, in which case it could end up being a collectors item worth something. However, you would think that S&W would have a record of the S/N. I know at one point the M&P 15 was outsourced for manufacture/shipping/sales so a mis-marking could have happened and its possible in that case a S/N was not recorded at S&W but at the outsourced manufacturer instead, so sending it to S&W would help verify this.
Another thing is that it is a S&W weapon but it was a special unique manufacturer for a specific special client and the S/N does not show up in the normal S/N database. I know that a couple of weapon manufacturers maintain seperate databases for S/N's for specific special client products that are not available to the public. Not sure if S&W does this or not.
Now, the weapon uses the S&W trademark logo, and they tell you there is no record of the weapon, if they did not manufacture the weapon then legally the weapon does not exist. However, you do not own the weapon either regardless of what you paid for it because you can not legally own counterfit unlicensened items, and since the S&W logo appears on the weapon S&W is actually the legal owner of the weapon by presence of their trademark logo because they own the trademark logo. So they can demand that you return the weapon to them, at your expense (but they might work out something with you), as its legally their property if its countefit and uses their logo.
If S&W is willing to take responsibility for the weapon and swap it out for you, and will put that in writing (unlikely) or verify for you thats what is going to happen, then you have nothing to worry about by sending it to them and you end up with a new weapon of which your sure of the pedigree and a warranty. However, if they want it back and will not swap it out then its most likely a counterfit and if you don't send it to them they will simply contact the BATF (or Customs) who will end up seizing the weapon anyway and "possibly" (probably actually as they take a very dim view on illegal firearms) arresting and prosecuting you. The BATF (or Customs) will find you if they want, there are many methods but they will most likely subponea the S&W forums for your IP address and use that to find your ISP then subponea the ISP for the internet access account holder name which will lead them to you. If it is a counterfit or has been imported or manufactured unlawfully, you don't have any terms and no one is under any obligations to make arrangements to accommodate you. It is your legal obligation to verify and ensure, without a doubt, the weapon you posess is legal. This means that if you have any doubt as to the authenticity what so ever, you are legally required to verify the legality of the firearm before retaining posession of it, and if it is not a legal firearm you have a legal obligation to surrender the firearm to a legal entity such as law enforcement....OR.... the owner of the trademarked items used in a counterfit which in this case is S&W (it is their trademarked logo), so no, S&W does not need to meet your terms. If it is counterfit or has been imported or manufactured unlawfully, you have a legal obligation to act in such a manner as to abide by the law and not retain such a weapon. If the weapon is counterfit or has been imported or manufactured unlawfully, and you intentionally retain the weapon, you are in posession of an illegal weapon and although the consequences for posessing such vary depending on the circumstances, if you are prepared to deal with the consequences of fines and jail time and never being able to posess another firearm then good luck. I would not depend on the "reputable" gun store owners and gunsmith to decide your future.
Posession of the weapon by its self is not illegal, but posession of the weapon if you have doubts as to its legality is illegal. If your caught with it you will be required to show it was indeed legal and if you can't do that then your out of luck.
If it were me, i'd choose the least injurious method here and send it to S&W and let them authenticate it. That way the reasonable responsible thing was done and removes the penalties for you. If they don't swap it out then your out a weapon and your money (unless you can get the person you bought it from to refund you), but your not going to risk jail time or fines or attorney fees which will cost you a lot more.
Oh, something else. Look at the bolt. Are the letters "L" and "MP" stamped on the bolt? If so then its an LMT manufacture outsource and they were bad for not sending the S/N over to S&W at one point. I know also that at a few different points the letter prefix for the M&P 15 serial number changed - it was "SM xxxxxx" then it changed to "SW xxxxxx" (the SW did not have a '/' in it like yours does which also makes me think its possibly a counterfit), and now its just "SN xxxxxx" (Its SN on the one I got - no '/'). Try getting S&W to check the serial number without the '/' and see what comes up, i'll bet they don't have a record of that either (which is why its a generally safe bet to guess right off that S&W did not manufacture the weapon because the M&P series did not "usually" have a '/' in the letter prefix for the serial number and if it was outsourced then it could have been mis-marked that way.) Its also possible that a company commissioned S&W to produce the weapon for them, in which case it might have a different serial number prefix, for example the "S/W" like yours has - I know a company called TALO Distributors had S&W produce a run of the M&P 15 series for a surplus 5.45 x 39 round and some of those had the "S/W" prefix on the serial numbers with the S&W logo stamped into the lower on the mag well but the other markings would have been in the regular S&W locations like the caliber on the barrel, however, to my knowledge the 5.56/.223 models of the M&P were never made in a "distributor only" run as those are core components of the line of rifles and if it was something like this the serial number would have been recorded at S&W before the weapons were transfered to the special run distributor, but you will need to send it to S&W for them to make sure.
If S&W does authenticate the weapon for you, make sure you get a letter of authenticity from them - it will cost you (I think) about $50.00 to get the letter but get it and hang on to it. The only way they can verifiy the authenticity is for you to return the weapon to them.
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MPDC
Member
IF I were you, I would send it into S&W and let them sort it out. Insure it for loss when you ship it.
IF, otoh, you contact BTAF, there is a possibility that , while you have shown good faith in having them check out a suspect weapon, they will thank you for your trouble and confiscate it. MUCH better, btw than keeping it and finding out when you are seized with it.
Have you contacted your seller? Do you have a legitimate name and address for him? His response? IF he is ficticious or has passed the weapon on from an "unknown" first owner you definitely do NOT want to fire it or keep it without knowing it's history.
See? Sending it to S&W IS your best choice. That and exercising more caution when buying a firearm FTF from a non FFL holder.
A good deal is not always the cheapest. Sometimes and with some things, new or known history is the ONLY way to go.
Don't compound your mistake, do the smart thing. JMH(and educated) opinion.
IF, otoh, you contact BTAF, there is a possibility that , while you have shown good faith in having them check out a suspect weapon, they will thank you for your trouble and confiscate it. MUCH better, btw than keeping it and finding out when you are seized with it.
Have you contacted your seller? Do you have a legitimate name and address for him? His response? IF he is ficticious or has passed the weapon on from an "unknown" first owner you definitely do NOT want to fire it or keep it without knowing it's history.
See? Sending it to S&W IS your best choice. That and exercising more caution when buying a firearm FTF from a non FFL holder.
A good deal is not always the cheapest. Sometimes and with some things, new or known history is the ONLY way to go.
Don't compound your mistake, do the smart thing. JMH(and educated) opinion.
After another call to S&W, Paul in Customer Service explained that it seems that the last 2 people I talked to were both mis informed. The original deal with Darryl stands, and a replacement rifle is being shipped to a local S&W dealer for an exchange. Thank you all for your advice, which after all, is what I was after in the first place! LOL The rifle will remain unfired and will be shipped to S&W soon ( Hopefully! )
Not to get into your business, but could you clear up the mystery a little further please? If they are going to swap it then they must think its a real S&W weapon....Why are the markings on the weapon the way they are?
The serial number on the lower would have been in a serial number range supplied by a sub contractor to S&W. However, neither the sub contractor nor S&W have any record of that serial number ( and I have a feeling many more ) . That is why they are very interested in it. Or at least that is what story they are telling me. LOL
A very interesting thread!
Foxtrot (verbose, ain't he) has perfectly written everything I was itching to pen as I was reading the thread. Thanks to him for a fine job! Given all that has been written I would take the following action, if I were in your shoes:
1. I would not fire the weapon.
2. I would contact S&W, possibly Darryl, but ONLY by email. NOT by phone! ONLY Email or letter!
3. Offer (in an email) to send the rifle complete to S&W with the understanding that within 60 days they will either return the rifle (unaltered) or replace the rifle (with the model previously agreed) regardless of whatever their investigation finds.
4. Request on an email reply before sending the weapon.
5. Ship it through your local shop just for recoding purposes. This will prove to the LAW that it is definitely not in your possession.
6. If they refuse to obligate themselves to replace it, but they still want you to send it in? I'd probably go ahead and send it.
Here's why:
Yes, I'd probably cave at some point, just to avoid the possibility of a very unwelcome knock at the door.
If S&W thinks you have a counterfeit rifle they will want it off of the street. S&W would be under no obligation to buy it or to trade for it; they could simply demand it or send the law for it. However, they'd probably not escalate that way. I suspect that they would voluntarily offer some compensation to you as you are seen as innocent AND because you're actually doing them a service by helping them get it out of circulation.
IF the gun is counterfeit, you need to understand that you have a very weak hand at the table, in fact, you are in great jeopardy. The possession of it is, itself, illegal. We are no longer talking dollars, we're talking about legality and the possible consequences of being found to have knowingly engaged in Possession of an Illegal Weapon.
What would you be willing to risk your RKBA for?
Foxtrot (verbose, ain't he) has perfectly written everything I was itching to pen as I was reading the thread. Thanks to him for a fine job! Given all that has been written I would take the following action, if I were in your shoes:
1. I would not fire the weapon.
2. I would contact S&W, possibly Darryl, but ONLY by email. NOT by phone! ONLY Email or letter!
3. Offer (in an email) to send the rifle complete to S&W with the understanding that within 60 days they will either return the rifle (unaltered) or replace the rifle (with the model previously agreed) regardless of whatever their investigation finds.
4. Request on an email reply before sending the weapon.
5. Ship it through your local shop just for recoding purposes. This will prove to the LAW that it is definitely not in your possession.
6. If they refuse to obligate themselves to replace it, but they still want you to send it in? I'd probably go ahead and send it.
Here's why:
Yes, I'd probably cave at some point, just to avoid the possibility of a very unwelcome knock at the door.
If S&W thinks you have a counterfeit rifle they will want it off of the street. S&W would be under no obligation to buy it or to trade for it; they could simply demand it or send the law for it. However, they'd probably not escalate that way. I suspect that they would voluntarily offer some compensation to you as you are seen as innocent AND because you're actually doing them a service by helping them get it out of circulation.
IF the gun is counterfeit, you need to understand that you have a very weak hand at the table, in fact, you are in great jeopardy. The possession of it is, itself, illegal. We are no longer talking dollars, we're talking about legality and the possible consequences of being found to have knowingly engaged in Possession of an Illegal Weapon.
What would you be willing to risk your RKBA for?
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FWIW I have contacted my local BATF agent. He says so long as the lower has not been altered to allow the installation of an autosear, that I am not breaking any laws by possessing this rifle.
But none the less, I am working with S&W to resolve this and have several emails to verify that. He says those in themselves are enough to prove that I am in the process of rectifying the issue.
The only action that could be taken against me, according to both the ATF and a friend , who just happens to be a judge, would be in the case of copyright infringement. Which #1 would be hard to prove that I did, and #2 would be hard to prove that I intended to profit from it. I have enough records of who I purchased it from and how I paid for it to show that a good faith purchase was made.
But anyhow....to get past all that mumbo jumbo, I am still continuing to attempt to work with S&W to get all of this resolved.
But none the less, I am working with S&W to resolve this and have several emails to verify that. He says those in themselves are enough to prove that I am in the process of rectifying the issue.
The only action that could be taken against me, according to both the ATF and a friend , who just happens to be a judge, would be in the case of copyright infringement. Which #1 would be hard to prove that I did, and #2 would be hard to prove that I intended to profit from it. I have enough records of who I purchased it from and how I paid for it to show that a good faith purchase was made.
But anyhow....to get past all that mumbo jumbo, I am still continuing to attempt to work with S&W to get all of this resolved.
That's excellent! A couple of posts were added while I was typing my earlier post, so some of it seems out of sequence.
I would still strongly suggest that you get Paul's email and send him a message summarizing what you understand the agreement to be and ask that he re: the message. You'd be amazed how effective this is as proof later; and how useless the recollection of a phone call is.
Be good to have the BATF on email also!
Ricky
MPDC
Member
Good luck with it. I still think S&W will keep their word and hope it all works out for you!
MPDC
Member
Interesting that in Patrick Sweeny's Second AR15 book, in the S&W section he shows an early production model (#221) with 5.56 clearly engraved on the selector side of the lower receiver.
jsimmons
Member
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2010
- Messages
- 497
- Reaction score
- 73
I have a MOE model, and it has "5.56 NATO 1/9" on the barrel, and serial number is 08xxx.
I bought it from a local gun dealer last August.
Well and end to the drama! Kate and Paul in customer service did a great job at following up with what they said would happen! Today I made the trade at a local S&W authorized dealer. I did get an upgraded rifle and Kate says that there are 3 more magazines being shipped to my home. All in all, the end was worth the means, but at the same time........I am glad it is over! Thanks for all the advice and words of wisdom. I only have 2 S&W firearms to date, but I am guessing that there will definitely be more in my future!
