Victory data base

[DWalt]

I recently accuiered a S&W Victory, from a dealer in Kopenhagen.
It is rechambered in 38spl. and is allegedly a 1943 production.
It have seen service with the German police as there is markings on the back strap "P.G.Flbg" = "Politzei Group Flensburg". Number is: # V 728978.
I absolutely appreciate the model 10 Victory, as I shot it with my 158grns lead bullets and a moderate amount of the Vithavouri powder, it shots high. Got deasent groups offhand, but prints high! It got me thinking may be I should try some heavier 361 bullets replacing the 357 158grns. in this old warior?

Yours is from more like very late 1944. I find that .357-.358 bullets shoot fine in my .38 S&W revolvers, but each gun will be different. Hollow-base .38 Special wadcutters and light loads may well produce better grouping than any other combination. Hollow-based bullets are like Minie Balls in that they expand to fill the bore completely.

 

[cocktaildave]

Just picked up at gun show

I traded an excellent Glock 19 for this Victory S/N V472077 in 38 S&W Special. It's marked U.S. Property G.H.D on the top strap. All the S/N's match including the grips and has the three P stamps. No strange markings other than the back strap with hand stamped German police ID. The finish is very nice with strong case colors on the hammer and trigger. Do you think it's been refinished since the police stamps are not shiny?

I've read through your very cool thread and assume a late 43 early 44 delivery correct? Is there a close S/N in your datebase with it's delivery location that might indicate my pistols destination? I'm debating a factory letter right now.

Finally does the police stamp lower the value of the pistol? I think the Glock trade was on the high side of what I should have paid but I've been wanting a Victory for a while and sometimes you have to jump when they show up in your hand.

Thanks!

Dave

 

[gordonrick]

Unfortunately a factory letter won't get you too far on most Victories, since they will only list the original shipment date and customer. A lot of the interesting history of the gun will not be documented.

Having said that, I lettered my 38/200 as there were no markings at all to indicated where it "might" have gone after shipment.

 

[ordnanceguy]

Hello Dave:

Welcome to the Forum.

Thanks for providing good pics and complete info on your Victory. That makes it much easier for us to diagnose what you have.

Your estimate on the ship date is correct. I would say, based on the Database, that it probably shipped from the factory in December, 1943. As for its shipping destination I would encourage you to seek a factory letter, and while you are writing for it you should be humming "Anchors Aweigh", if you catch my drift. ;<)

The West German police markings on the back strap only adversely affect the value to guys who are strict USGI collectors. Those markings are part of the history of the revolver, in my opinion, and as a Victory collector I find them interesting in their own right. Any negative is balanced by the positive, I think.

It is very difficult for me to offer solid opinions on finish originality based on Internet pics. From what I can see your revolver's finish appears to me to be original.

Nice gun. I hope this information has been helpful. And if you go for a factory letter I hope that you will post back here with the results.

 

[cocktaildave]

Thanks, I appriciate your expertice. The finish is very nice with some small wear on the muzzel and the top strap consistant with holster use. And with close inspection I can see a couple of tiny reddish spots of patina starting on the side frame by the logo. If it was refinished, it was old.

My father was a Navy pilot in the 50's so of course I wanted a Navy marked Victory but this one was available. I think I will get that letter and maybe I'll be suprised! I be sure to post when I comes. You think best to post in this thread?

I carried a .38 for my first few years as an Air Force aircrew member before the switch to the M9. I don't remember what model S&W we had. I'm thinking a Model 15? I'm pretty sure it was NOT the alloy version prone to failure. I was not much into wheel guns at the time, all the rage was hi-cap wonder-nines. Now I have the proper admiration for the classic looks and slick function of the S&W revolvers!

Should I shoot this one? No +P. I do have some Agilla semi jacket in my stash.

Happy Holidays!

Dave

 

[DWalt]

USAF used the Model 15 from the early 1960s until the M9 came on the scene. Should you shoot the Victory? Absolutely.

 

[JustinL]

Additional Victories

Hello

Here are two Victory models from my collection

1)
Caliber: .38 Smith & Wesson
Serial: 835753
Barrel: 5"
Finish: Blue with checkered walnut stocks with silver medallions.
Additional Features" Lanyard ring, 'P' stamped on butt, '38/380' stamped on right side of barrel & Canadian C-broad arrow on left side of frame.

2)
Caliber: .38 Special
Serial: V157933
Barrel: 4"
Finish: Phosphate with smooth walnut stocks
Additional Features: Lanyard ring and ordnance flaming bomb on butt.


Factory letters are pending for both and will be added as they arrive.


I do not know if these are in your database, but here are another three of which one has a factory letter.

Collector's Lot of Two Smith & Wesson Victory Model Double Action Revolvers -A) Smith & Wesson Victory Revolver with "U.S. NAVY" Markings

Item:5501522 Smith & Wesson S&W .38 Special Victory - Navy OSS w/ USN Holster For Sale at GunAuction.com

 

[ordnanceguy]

Hello Justin:

Thanks very much for your detailed contributions to the Victory Model Database. It is contributions from collectors like you who help to increase the accuracy and breadth of the Database, for the benefit of all.

 

[DWalt]

Shipping dates for the two revolvers first mentioned would likely be late 1941 and late 1942 respectively.

 

[captsnapshot]

S&W Victory in Europe

I do aprechiate all the feed back on this tread. I will try some SWC in my Victory or even WC`s. It is good to hear that 357/58 bullets shoots fine in 38-200 Wheelguns or in a rechambered or reamed out Victory. I absolutely love the Parkerized old wariors!
I will see if I can post some pic`s soon.

 

[JustinL]

No problem, I am happy to help.

Just out of curiosity how many revolvers do you have in your database? How many have factory letters?

 

[ordnanceguy]

No problem, I am happy to help.

Just out of curiosity how many revolvers do you have in your database? How many have factory letters?

Justin:

I am away from my computer which has the Database loaded onto it, but the last time I bothered to check the totals it was somewhat under 10,000 entries. I would have to run a search to determine how many entries have factory letter data but my off-hand guess would be about 20% or so.

 

[Rototiller]

I have a non-S&W Victory .38 SPL, 2" barrel, has Made in U.S.A. on frame but the cylinder has stamped on OD England once with crowns stamped between each round. S/N V651363 is stamped on the rim surface and butt. Under the extractor pin on the barrel is stamped .38" x .767" then something like M/G/8/0 then a Crown with BNP and 3 1/2 Tons. The stock looks like wood bark and have the s/n 154253. The lanyard hole has been plugged, finish matches the blueing of the rest of the frame.

I'm guessing it was made in England and imported at some point.

This was my Dad's, worked at the Sands or one of the casinos in Las Vegas when he first retired from the USMC in 1966, knowing my Dad he got it at a pawn shop.

I saw a S&W Victory at a gun shop today sparked my interest in mine. My s/n would or would not be inline with S&W's?

Sorry my camera will not take close ups of the stampings.

Donald

 

[DWalt]

I have a non-S&W Victory .38 SPL, 2" barrel, has Made in U.S.A. on frame but the cylinder has stamped on OD England once with crowns stamped between each round. S/N V651363 is stamped on the rim surface and butt. Under the extractor pin on the barrel is stamped .38" x .767" then something like M/G/8/0 then a Crown with BNP and 3 1/2 Tons. The stock looks like wood bark and have the s/n 154253. The lanyard hole has been plugged, finish matches the blueing of the rest of the frame.

I'm guessing it was made in England and imported at some point.

This was my Dad's, worked at the Sands or one of the casinos in Las Vegas when he first retired from the USMC in 1966, knowing my Dad he got it at a pawn shop.

I saw a S&W Victory at a gun shop today sparked my interest in mine. My s/n would or would not be inline with S&W's?

Sorry my camera will not take close ups of the stampings.

Donald

Yours is a Victory .38/200 from mid-1944, made for military use by the British Commonwealth. It was not made in Great Britain, but by S&W in Springfield MA. They were imported in large quantities from England in the years following WWII, mainly the 1950s and 1960s. The marks you see were applied to these revolvers before they were released by the British military for commercial sale. It was originally chambered for the .38 S&W cartridge (NOT .38 S&W Special). However, the importers performed terrible atrocities on many of these .38/200s, such as shortening barrels and rechambering the cylinders to accept .38 S&W Special, and bluing and nickel plating are not unknown. Such molested Victories have no collectible interest. If the SN on your grips does not match that on the butt, they are not original to the gun. The 2" barrel indicates one which was chopped from the standard 5" length. You might check to see if the chambers will accept .38 Special cartridges. If so, it has also been re-chambered.

Some pictures and a better description would elicit a more complete response.

 

[Revolver38]

2.5" Victory?

Hi,

I'm new to the forum, so apologies if my question has already been asked in the FAQs.

I'm trying to identify a pistol that belonged to my grandfather, who died 22 years ago. I believe he got it in the early 1960s at the latest. The numbers match (728776), but there isn't a "V" anywhere. Under the barrel when I swing the cylinder out is the number 6 05 30, which in later models would be a model number, I assume. The barrel is only 2.5 inches, measured from the front of the cylinder, and there is no lug. Interestingly, this pistol does not chamber .38 Special. It almost fits, and can be forced in, but it is obviously chambered for a slightly shorter cartridge.

There's no sign of "Smith and Wesson" on the left side of the barrel. If chopped (which I think it may be), the "Wesson" ought to be visible. The front site looks professionally done. I can find no sign of a re-import stamp, nor have I been able to locate any "S" proof or military acceptance markings, and there is no lanyard swivel, although one could have been removed; it's hard to say for sure.

Any ideas would be most welcome!

Brad

 

[DWalt]

See the previous posting, where a revolver similar to yours was discussed. Yours is a pre-Victory .38/200 from early 1941. The barrel has been shortened from its original length, and it's highly likely the chambers have been reamed to accept .38 Special cartridges. Very few of these military revolvers were made with 2" barrels, and those that were have an underlug on the barrel ahead of the extractor rod.

 

[JustinL]

From a gunbroker auction

 

[DWalt]

I have to wonder if the 2/14/40 date given in the foregoing factory letter is correct. That seems really, really early for that SN. Maybe it's a mistake and the correct date should be 2/14/1941, which I could believe. I'd expect something in the 67xxxx-68xxxx SN range at most for February 1940, as that's around the time of the first British orders.
Can anyone verify the letter's correctness?

 

[ordnanceguy]

Can anyone verify the letter's correctness?

The factory shipping ledgers are the original source for shipping data. No one, except Roy Jinks at S&W, has access to the shipping ledgers for this time period.

However, I will say that the Victory Model Database does show numerous examples of pre-Victory revolvers in this serial range shipping in the early part of 1940. There are other examples in this serial range that show as shipped in 1941. Nevertheless, I'm going with Roy on this one.

 

[DWalt]

It's interesting that the letter indicates shipment was made to the British Purchasing Commission. I can't find a great deal of hard information about the BPC, but it seems that it actually was not established in the US until November 1939, and mainly went through organizational structuring until the Fall of France occurred in May 1940, at which time it was activated to fulfill its purpose. Exactly what it did during the late-1939 - May 1940 period is not well documented. Therefore shipping of revolvers to the BPC in Feb 1940 seems a little premature, although I suppose it could have happened. Second, the usual date given for the inception of S&W British revolver production (of the South African contract of 2/40) is given as March 11, 1940, nearly a month after the shipping date stated.

Hellstrom's notes indicate that by 4/41, SNs had reached about 750,000. So are we to believe that there were only about 35,000 revolvers made between 2/40 and 4/41? That would be only about 3,000/month. It's highly doubtful that production was this low.

I also located another factory letter indicating that SN 715765 was shipped to the BPC on 11/25/40. That I can believe.

In light of all this, I still believe there is something fishy about the 2/40 lettered shipping date to the BPC.