Victory data base

[LAJW_III]

I recently was shown a revolver I was told was RCMP issued, and was wondering about it's provenance.
It's a 38spl S&W model 10 ( I believe) with serial number V636851, can anyone tell me the date of issue? I'm sorry I don't know any more markings, are there marks I should look for that might give more information?

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[Muley Gil]

Welcome to new members max136, Jetfixer3 and LAJW III.

LAJW III, you have a .38 Victory model from WW II. Model numbers were not assigned by S&W until 1957.

How long is the barrel and how does the caliber stamp read? Generally, 4" barreled Victories were chambered in .38 special and 5" barreled Victories were chambered in .38 S&W, which is a shorter, fatter cartridge that does not interchange with the .38 special. However, after the war, many of the .38 S&W revolvers were rechambered to .38 special.

 

[LAJW_III]

Got ahold of these pics:

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[LAJW_III]

It says "38 S.&W.Special CTG" on the barrel, in case it isn't clear in the pic.

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[Absalom]

I recently was shown a revolver I was told was RCMP issued, and was wondering about it's provenance.
It's a 38spl S&W model 10 ( I believe) with serial number V636851, can anyone tell me the date of issue? I'm sorry I don't know any more markings, are there marks I should look for that might give more information?

In regards to the RCMP, while anything is possible during wartime, the RCMP's issue sidearm from the early 1900s until the early 1950s was the .455/.45 Colt New Service, and there seems to be no compelling reason why they should have ended up with a different brand and different caliber. So unless there is any kind of documentation, any connection would be hard to prove. There was no standard identifying marking which I'm aware of, and the gun, no matter which type of Victory it is, would be unlikely to letter directly to a foreign agency at that time.

The revolver, based on the serial, was made in mid-1944.

 

[LAJW_III]

In regards to the RCMP, while anything is possible during wartime, the RCMP's issue sidearm from the early 1900s until the early 1950s was the .455/.45 Colt New Service, and there seems to be no compelling reason why they should have ended up with a different brand and different caliber. So unless there is any kind of documentation, any connection would be hard to prove. There was no standard identifying marking which I'm aware of, and the gun, no matter which type of Victory it is, would be unlikely to letter directly to a foreign agency at that time.



The revolver, based on the serial, was made in mid-1944.

Thanks for the date info!
No documentation on the RCMP link, it's just a Canadian guy who has it! [emoji38]
Probably what he was told third or fourth hand, who knows.

Which cartridge is this chambered in, 38spl or 38S&W? The barrel seems... ambiguous to me.

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[Texas Star]

LAJW-


Read the (four-inch) barrel! It's a .38 Special. No idea how a Canadian got it, but no RCMP provenance.

Their guns usually have an intertwined MP marking, BTW.

They adopted the M&P in 1954, and it became the Model 10 after 1957. Their guns had five inch barrels, commercially blued, and were std. until replaced by S&W DA-only 9mm's, I think around 1990.

Guns like that shown are known mainly for USN use, esp. by aviators. But USAF used many during the Viet war, due to shortages of our Combat Masterpiece .38. I often wore a Victory model then.

 

[LAJW_III]

L JW_


Read the barrel! It's a .38 Special. No idea how a Canadian got it, but no RCMP provenance.

Their guns usually have an intertwined MP marking, BTW.

They adopted the M&P in 1954, and it became the Model 10 after 1957. Their guns had five inch barrels, commercially blued, and were std. until replaced by S&W DA-only 9mm's, I think around 1990.

Guns like that shown are known mainly for USN use, esp. by aviators. But USAF used many during the Viet war, due to shortages of our Combat Masterpiece .38. I often wore a Victory model then.

Barrel says 38S.&W.Special, that's why I was asking. You're saying that means 38spl, good enough for me.

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[Texas Star]

Yes, .38 S&W Special is the ctg. There was a .38 Colt Special, differing only in having a flatter nose profile on the bullet.

You seem BADLY in need of basic gun knowledge. I suggest finding and buying Geoffrey Boothroyd's, The Handgun, Crown Publishers, 1970 and Elmer Keith's, Sixguns, 1961 rev. ed. Those are a good basic start in learning.

 

[LAJW_III]

Yes, .38 S&W Special is the ctg. There was a .38 Colt Special, differing only in having a flatter nose profile on the bullet.

You seem BADLY in need of basic gun knowledge. I suggest finding and buying Geoffrey Boothroyd's, The Handgun, Crown Publishers, 1970 and Elmer Keith's, Sixguns, 1961 rev. ed. Those are a good basic start in learning.

Thanks for being rude to someone asking for help. The other member above stated that 38S&W was different from 38SPL. The weapon I was asking about is marked with both terms.
I'm sorry my knowledge of 80 year old guns isn't up to your standards.
I'll stick with my 19 years (so far) of experience with modern weapons across 7 years of combat in three theaters.

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[Jetfixer3]

Gentlemen. I sincerely apologize for any confusion that I caused yesterday by mistakenly saying that my Victory revolver S/N V390652 had a 5" barrel. It was totally my mistake as it really is a 4" barrel. All the other information I gave was correct. I really do know how to measure a revolver barrel and how to read a ruler. Why I typed 5 instead of 4 I will never know.

 

[lazytrbar]

Does the victory database note if the submission was a "red letter" revolver? I ask because I'm curious if these were encountered around a specific serial number range or were more random. Over on gunboards for example I was just looking at a pre victory gun red letter marked property of u.s. navy. It was surprising to me as I thought that was a Victory revolver only pantograph marking on guns shipped to navy. Admittedly I'm new to this. How early was the navy doing this? Did they apply it to non S&W guns?


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[DWalt]

The Red (and White) letter revolvers were not engraved by S&W. Apparently early on, they were engraved at various Navy yards and the engraving filled with paint. So historical letters will not address the property engraving. The highest SN on my list having an engraving is V1354xx, but most on my list are either pre-Victories or very low in the Victory SN range.

 

[Mckoy86]

Good day . this is my new SW model Victory. SN V452492. There is a special BAZ marking on the rear handle. The numbers on all parts match. Sorry for my English.

 

[Absalom]

Good day . this is my new SW model Victory. SN V452492. There is a special BAZ marking on the rear handle. The numbers on all parts match. Sorry for my English.

The gun is originally from later 1943, around November.

After the war, US authorities issued it to German police in occupied Berlin.

The stamp means
B = Berlin
A = Amerikanischer Sektor
Z = Zehlendorf (the city district)

Above is the Berlin police star, sometimes called a sunburst or rosette.

 

[Mckoy86]

Thanks you Very match. Caliber 38 SW Special. Barel 4 inches.

 

[Puller]

This has been a very interesting thread.

I have a Victory, serial number V639265 to share for the data base. Serial number is also on the outer lip of the cylinder face.

It has a flaming bomb on the right side but has no other government markings. Top strap has no markings.

It has been Parkerized at some point.

Any information would be appreciated.

 

[chiefdave]

This has been a very interesting thread.

I have a Victory, serial number V639265 to share for the data base. Serial number is also on the outer lip of the cylinder face.

It has a flaming bomb on the right side but has no other government markings. Top strap has no markings.

It has been Parkerized at some point.

Any information would be appreciated.

That's an odd placement for the flaming bomb and the finish looks like Parkerizing. Could be an arsenal refinish. Is there a P stamped on the left side of the frame under the hammer, rear face of the cylinder and on the barrel flat? More pictures would be helpful.

 

[Quiet 1]

RE: Puller's post from yesterday.

It's certainly been refinished (parkerized... different from the original S&W proprietary phosphate 'Military Midnight Black' ). Perhaps the flaming bomb, U.S. Property, G.H.D. stamping was removed???

It's also odd that the flaming bomb Ordnance acceptance stamp is missing from both the frame 'butt' and the top strap but a, what appears to me, oversized rendering is stamped on the frame beneath the MADE IN U.S.A.

Is the bottom of the barrel (when cylinder is open) clearly marked V 639265? Are the grips numbered to the gun?

 

[Puller]

Does not appear to be a P stamped anywhere. Grips are marked with s/n .

Here's some more pictures as requested.

 

[Quiet 1]

Does not appear to be a P stamped anywhere. Grips are marked with s/n. Here's some more pictures as requested.

It's clear in the third photo that the serial number has been ground off the bottom of the barrel (or, it's a replacement barrel that was never numbered). However, the grips, cylinder and frame match. The normal ordnance acceptance stamps are gone, but, an oversize flaming bomb has been applied to the frame's right side.

I don't have any guesses other then the missing serial number and ordnance acceptance stamps were removed during the refinishing prep. Perhaps someone will be along with a plausible explanation or theory.

 

[franck1963]

The gun would be from later 1943, maybe August.

Since your header says USA/France, may we assume the gun is in France and you have some provenance on it? Both SOE and OSS did provide these to the resistance.

Yes, this revolver is in France . Provided to local resistance group (Area of Toulouse) The owner of gun was engraving his initials on left grip. The gun was bought to grandson of this man.

 

[Absalom]

....
I have a Victory, serial number V639265 to share for the data base. Serial number is also on the outer lip of the cylinder face.

It has a flaming bomb on the right side but has no other government markings. Top strap has no markings.

By V 639265, mid-1944, all Victorys, whether military or DSC, received the triple P proof, so while a non-serialed (probably post-war) replacement barrel won't have one, those on cylinder and frame in front of the hammer should be there.

US arsenal refinished Victorys aren't a thing. That doesn't mean that some bored unit or depot armorer somewhere might not have done a gun or a few, but there was no organized effort or program like on earlier .38 DA Colts during WW I or the .45 revolvers in the inter-war years. The military had too many after 1945 and started surplusing them out and selling them on to PD's and such soon after the war.

Another consideration is that the original US Ordnance flaming bomb was not standardized and appeared in various shapes and sizes. And any ordnance stamp you desire is available for purchase, surplus and replica. It will be hard, likely impossible, to determine whether this stamp means anything or the refinisher just fancied a cool decoration.

 

[anonymouscow]

Does not appear to be a P stamped anywhere. Grips are marked with s/n

I am pretty sure I can make out a "P" on the frame and one on the cylinder, I looked on where they were on one of mine so I would know where to look. They are both faint, but once I zoomed in they can be made out.

I am fairly new to the Victory world but I don't think I have seen a flaming bomb in that location either. I would lean toward thinking it is a more recent addition, it looks pretty well defined, most of the other markings are pretty well worn. Maybe a DSC firearm someone added the flaming bomb to, no real reason to grind the top off just to add a bomb somewhere else, unless it was just too far worn after refinishing.

 

[Absalom]

I am pretty sure I can make out a "P" on the frame and one on the cylinder, I looked on where they were on one of mine so I would know where to look. They are both faint, but once I zoomed in they can be made out.
.....

Bingo. You got better eyes than I do. I had to bring the photos up on the desktop and enlarge them, but I've got both P's now, too. Especially the one on the frame suffered a lot from the refinish. They're usually much sharper.

 

[Puller]

I am pretty sure I can make out a "P" on the frame and one on the cylinder, I looked on where they were on one of mine so I would know where to look. They are both faint, but once I zoomed in they can be made out.

Bingo. You got better eyes than I do. I had to bring the photos up on the desktop and enlarge them, but I've got both P's now, too. Especially the one on the frame suffered a lot from the refinish. They're usually much sharper.

Okay, now that I know where to look I can see the "P" on the frame and the "P" on the cylinder face.

The flat area under the barrel does not show any tell tale signs of grinding, so I'm assuming it may be a replacement barrel.

I appreciate the information gentlemen.

 

[anonymouscow]

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/492412-pre-victory-model.html?492412=#post139285024

I ran across a thread, linked above, that has a pre-victory with similar characteristics to the victory in the previous few posts, pictures from that thread posted below.

Similar flaming bomb (except on the left side of the frame), barrel swap (except serial numbers re-stamped), and looks to be refinished.

 

[anonymouscow]

This was my attempt to compare the two flaming bombs. I am just using my phone so it's not exact, also the photo on the left was taken at an angle and it looks like they were struck a little differently or worn differently. The flames look a little different, not that it it really makes a difference one way or another, it's mostly just how I entertain myself.

 

[CharlieP187]

Victory Model that I inherited

I am looking for info on the history of the pistol that I inherited from my Mom.
The serial number is V231531. It has the large "P" stamp on the barrel and the "BNP" proof mark.


Any info is appreciated.

 

[Absalom]

I am looking for info on the history of the pistol that I inherited from my Mom.
The serial number is V231531. It has the large "P" stamp on the barrel and the "BNP" proof mark.


Any info is appreciated.

We can't get very specific, but the BNP (Birmingham Nitro Proof) would indicate that it is chambered in .38 S&W, has or at least had a 5" barrel and a US property stamping on the topstrap, and based on the serial was shipped to Britain under Lend-Lease in spring 1943.

Where is that "large P" located on the barrel? A photo would be helpful.