cmort666
Member
He's also on medical leave, doubtless in an attempt to pull a "Mark Furhman" style mental health disability scam. Furhman failed, and Harless probably will too.
Video of Bad stop of CCW holder in Ohio
- Thread starter bushmaster1313
- Start date
cshoff
Member
But to this point, no proof has been offered that the driver was, indeed, looking for a prostitute or drugs. You have to consider that even though "officer hot head" claimed this women was a prostitute, his credibility is completely shot. At this point, everything he says needs to be considered completely false until proven otherwise. In addition, even if this woman IS a prostitute (which is still unproven), there has been no evidence presented that shows the driver was attempting to solicit her services.
Given the type of neighborhood this appears to be, it is exactly the kind of place where I would WANT to have my gun with me.
Having worked in the Hunts Point section of the Bronx some years ago, this is a regular occurrence(John looking for a date), or at least it was back in the 70's to early 80's.
I KNOW what a pros is and I KNOW what a John is, SHE's a pros and HE's a John. There's no doubt in my mind.
Did the John deserve to get threatened/treated like that? NO.
I KNOW what a pros is and I KNOW what a John is, SHE's a pros and HE's a John. There's no doubt in my mind.
Did the John deserve to get threatened/treated like that? NO.
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Chris, was he really inquiring about a job then? Be real, I will give you the cop was over the top with his rant, at least admit the "victim" is shady. Looking at the video, if I am wrong, it means I couldnt find a collar in a shirt factory.
cshoff
Member
That could be. I, too, have my theories about what was taking place prior to these officers showing up. That said, you being decidedly right in your mind in no way constitutes proof. The same thing applies to the officer in question.
Speculating what the driver and other two people in the car were or were not up to (without any proof to substantiate those speculations), only serves to deflect from the real issue here, which was the conduct of these two officers.
cmort666
Member
I'm pretty certain that I never lived ANYWHERE in Chicago that you WOULDN'T consider "shady". In addition, I'll bet you wouldn't go to any of them at all, unless you were getting paid to do so.
cshoff
Member
Mark - IMO, he was probably up to no good. Drugs, prostitution, or something else - who knows what. That said, without any proof to substantiate any of our hunches, we must presume the guy was innocent. In other words, legally, we don't really have a choice but to take his word for it that he was inquiring about a job.
Oh yeah, I think I saw the Jobs Fair poster on the telephone pole 
I always go looking for work on dark streets at night.
I always go looking for work on dark streets at night.
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jtpur
Member
You know regardless of what the CCW guy was doing, the cop was out of line. If the cop was so damned worried about the driver picking up a known prostitute, why was it about 6 minutes into the stop before the driver was even approached. You guys who say the cops could have done a stop and frisk....You want to frisk somone you do it for your safety. Six minutes after a stop, one might assume you had no fear. They can frisk people, not vehicles. I clearly hear the guy say something about "I got...." and I clearly hear someone say "shut up." If I were the driver I would do nothing until the cop asked me for some Identification. As far as Im concerned he was not even the subject of whatever the cops were doing. They got the black guy out, they talked to the girl. You use terms known protitutes. I had a cop I supervised once who arrested any female standing on a street corner for Loitering for Prostitution and he always wrote she was a known Prostitute. I did criminal histories and not one person he arrested had a "CONVICTION' for prostitution. I had some serious issues with that and had an IA investigation launched for making false police reports. The bottom line is the cops conduct was outrageous....and did you guys ever hear of "Innocent until proven guilty." They failed to conduct any kind of reasonable investigation. and please enough of this they were overworked stuff. I put in tons of 18 hour days and did not find it necessary to act the way this guy acted which gives me reason to question his mental state.
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jtpur
Member
....sorry to rant but this incident got my hackles up. The cops, I agree were ok in making the stop. They should have approached the driver. Asked for DL etc. I can even see them taking all occupants out and conducting a stop and frisk. I can see them conducting an investigation. I can see them running records for warrants and past offenses. I can even see them writing a report and forwarding same to the officials who issue CCW's for a hearing to determine if this guy should keep his firearm permit. But I can not in any way condone illegal vehicle searches, false arrests, harrassment of a citizen who is threatend to be arrested every time a cop sees him and have his car towed too. I can not condone a cop telling someone he should have pulled his Glock out and put ten in him and would sleep well if he did so and would use someone as a witness to the "execution." When I was a young rookie I started to get into the face of a gang thug. My training officer grabbed me by the arm pulled me aside and said, "Son, lock him up or leave him alone." "If you lock him up, do it with good reason and as a professional and keep your comments to yourself." Best advice I ever got and I followed that advice for 25 years.
OIF2
Member
Wrong. Working as a street cop is different than being in a court of law. Cops are naturally suspicious (if they're any good) and expect people to do bad things. It's the court system that presumes innocence; not the police. That gentleman was not lost after a boy scout meeting; he's not exactly a poster child for the 2nd amendment foundation. And while this copper over-reacted, don't lose sight of what he was possibly investigating here. I wouldn't be so quick to jump to this citizen's defense (yeah, I know, he has a right to be anywhere he wants, any time of the day or night. Sure). The cop was being pro-active and doing his job. He's paid to look into suspicious behavior in bad areas. But he lost control and will probably pay the price. Too bad. People don't get the "nice guy, good citizen" pass just because they have a permit. Responsibility comes with the permit. I don't carry a gun when I drink, nor do I drive afterwords. I wonder what this citizen's old lady thinks about his location and his company? Let this drama play out and see what eventually happens. Most people here don't have a clue about probable cause, reasonable suspicion or what entails a good stop. But they THINK they do. I've noticed that this thread is becoming more and more heated, with some cop-bashing thrown in. Sit back and see where this one ends up. The system will take care of this policeman. Hopefully, the citizen will also be minus a permit in the future.
Bob
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Innocent until proven guilty? I guess the Cop does not get that huh? All cases are individual. Maybe you should have had an IA complaint for "failure to supervise" your subordinates? Couldn't drop what you were doing to verify an arrest? (I do not think that of you, but I can jump to conclusions with your example. Please do not take offense)
Not being the Cop on the scene, I would say that just pulling up to the car and approaching the car, the cop entered into a stop/question/frisk situation. That may just be NYPD jargon, but if you detain, question or frisk someone you fill out an NYPD UF250 which is a stop/question/frisk report.
While other posts came up, I was typing a post.
I really can't do this thread anymore. My opinion only, please at least let me have that.
The area I am assuming is a pros/drug location. I do not feel bad for this deviant. Big deal he got cursed at and threeatened, he is a miscreant. I feel bad for those good people who live in that area and have to put up with this ****.
YES THE COP WAS WRONG. I will point out bad tactics, illegal search of the car. On my job, it was called a "fishing expedition", where you know you have nothing, but try to get something.
You know what time of day it is, but there is nothing you can do but talk to them, get them nervous and get them off the block, voluntarily. This is what I would have personally done.
I also know, from working in a ghetto for many years, you have to come off as a hard ***. Perps take kindness for weakness. I am sure you cop's out there have heard from LODD reports put out by the FBI, where they interview Cop killers who killed cops on traffic stops. They always said they decided to shoot the "nice" cop.
On another note, I also believe in water boarding terrorists, I know I am a horrible person.
I really can't do this thread anymore. My opinion only, please at least let me have that.
The area I am assuming is a pros/drug location. I do not feel bad for this deviant. Big deal he got cursed at and threeatened, he is a miscreant. I feel bad for those good people who live in that area and have to put up with this ****.
YES THE COP WAS WRONG. I will point out bad tactics, illegal search of the car. On my job, it was called a "fishing expedition", where you know you have nothing, but try to get something.
You know what time of day it is, but there is nothing you can do but talk to them, get them nervous and get them off the block, voluntarily. This is what I would have personally done.
I also know, from working in a ghetto for many years, you have to come off as a hard ***. Perps take kindness for weakness. I am sure you cop's out there have heard from LODD reports put out by the FBI, where they interview Cop killers who killed cops on traffic stops. They always said they decided to shoot the "nice" cop.
On another note, I also believe in water boarding terrorists, I know I am a horrible person.
To everyone who has posted on this thread, I harbor no ill will towards anyone. I hope I have not insulted anyone, if I have I apologize. There is not one poster who hasn't brought up an well articulated thought.
I agree.
What difference does it make what we THINK the man in the car was doing?
The matter that should concern every freedom loving citizen is the poor manner in which the officer conducted himself. Conduct of this sort by an officer simply can not be tolerated.
The matter that should concern every freedom loving citizen is the poor manner in which the officer conducted himself. Conduct of this sort by an officer simply can not be tolerated.
cshoff
Member
Sorry, but I don't believe you are in a position to be the final arbiter of who is "wrong" or who is "right". A "street cop" is bound by the legal standards of RAS and/or probable cause which have been established by...........you guessed it..........a court of law! So with that being an established fact, it stands that beyond making an inquiry, a LEO may not take further actions without evidence to support his or her hunch. If the inquiry turns up additional incriminating information, it can continue and possibly develop into an investigation, if it doesn't, the inquiry ends. We don't use a "street justice" system in this country. What this LEO was "possibly" investigating is immaterial without evidence to support the possibility, and you acknowledging the fact that this man had a right to be where he was, when he was there, and then acting as if that doesn't matter is disturbing, to say the least.
I am curious on what grounds you would ask a court to revoke this person's CCW permit? Did he commit a crime? Did he violate a condition of his license? Would you ask them to revoke based on your hunch?
IMO, I don't really think most people here are eager to "bash" police officers. On the other hand, I think most of us have no problems calling a spade a spade. While there is speculation that the driver of this car was up to no good, there is irrefutable evidence of this police officer's outrageous behavior. I don't see how you can fault folks here for recognizing that and pointing it out.
OIF2
Member
Don't know what you're talking about there; Mark didn't pull any health disability scams. He retired. I worked the LAPD for 24 years and with Mark for some of that, but hey, what do I know? After Mark retired, the politically correct Chief ordered a full-on investigation of Mark's background (unheard of for someone already retired), going back to probation. All they could verify was a transient who said Mark gave him $5.00 one night because he was hungry. Sorry about the thread drift; I get irritated, though, when I read false things bandied about as true.
Bob
OIF2
Member
OK, not to get into a pee-pee contest here, but again, you're wrong, brother. How many people have you stopped, or arrested? I did it every day for 24 years, in both plainclothes and uniform. And I was in court almost daily for mostly preliminary hearings on stuff you know not much about (probable cause, reasonable suspicion, etc), in a very liberal state with mostly VERY rights-friendly judges. Cops work on what they see and find, and the court system either backs that up or dismisses the case. Happens all the time. Good cops are suspicious, look for PC, make the stop and arrest, then articulate what was found in an arrest report. The DA reviews the case, and it MAY go for a prelim, if the arrest was within the law. That's how it works. All this swirls around Officer Safety, another thing that enters into what the street copper does. Like others have said, sometimes you KNOW the bad guy is dirty, but you let him go, because there isn't enough to arrest. But you let him know you're watching. Would you REALLY want that citizen in YOUR gunclub?
As far as that Ohio cop goes, I stated 2 or 3 times he was out of control and would pay a price (probably firing and a lawsuit). If he was calmer, separated the players and quietly interviewed everyone, he might have come up with something. His tactics were stupid. All he has now is himself looking very bad on "YouTube". Probably my biggest beef, though, is with this guy's partner. He did nothing to restrain him, which probably would have saved this guy's job. Good partners keep each other out of trouble and safe through their tour. My thoughts only, based on 24 years in Los Angeles.
Bob
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cmort666
Member
During Fuhrman's perjury problem, it was widely reported in the media that he had previously attempted to get a stress related medical disability determination.
