Walking Away

[TripLeader]

I think a major part of trust between citizens and police is education. By and large, citizens don't know what the police really do and why. It should be taught in schools. We learn about the branches of government, how bills become laws , etc. But we don't teach the practical role of law enforcement in America.

Where I'm going with this: Police use of force is judged by citizens watching videos of the incident. Every use of force by the police against a human being is a terrible thing to see. Even when it is legal and just. But we as citizens, by and large, do not know how to judge the legality of it.

Education of police matters to American citizens is needed. We should all learn and review the Graham v. Connor case law decision. Until then, misunderstanding leads to distrust.

I encourage all forum members to tell everyone they know to research all sides for themselves. Go to the Black Lives Matter website. Read up on how to legally judge police use of force. Look at violent crime statistics. Listen to the opinion of others and try to see the pros before considering the cons of their argument.

Change is coming. We have to make sure America gets better.

 

[Jon651]

We must all agree that there is a HUGE difference between protest and riot, which includes but is not limited to arson, assault, rape, murder and theft. I can't see how riot can be justified.

I agree, a riot cannot be justified - unless we are trying to rid the village of a monster with torches and pitchforks!

 

[Kanewpadle]

I think a major part of trust between citizens and police is education. By and large, citizens don't know what the police really do and why. It should be taught in schools. We learn about the branches of government, how bills become laws , etc. But we don't teach the practical role of law enforcement in America.

Where I'm going with this: Police use of force is judged by citizens watching videos of the incident. Every use of force by the police against a human being is a terrible thing to see. Even when it is legal and just. But we as citizens, by and large, do not know how to judge the legality of it.

Education of police matters to American citizens is needed. We should all learn and review the Graham v. Connor case law decision. Until then, misunderstanding leads to distrust.

I encourage all forum members to tell everyone they know to research all sides for themselves. Go to the Black Lives Matter website. Read up on how to legally judge police use of force. Look at violent crime statistics. Listen to the opinion of others and try to see the pros before considering the cons of their argument.

Change is coming. We have to make sure America gets better.

Wouldn't it be easier to just stay out of trouble? Not to put yourself in a position to deal with police at all?

 

[pennzy]

No one is blaming good cops. Majority are good. The DAs have become too chummy with the police. Their job is to weed out the bad ones. Also good cops must police their ranks if they want the public to be on their side. If we don't stand up for everyone, no one will stand up for you when it's you with a knee on your neck. Don't be distracted by the criminal rioters. The majority of protests have been peaceful.

 

[Puller]

No one is blaming good cops. . . . The majority of protests have been peaceful.

I don't know that I would agree with either comment. But, I can only go by what the main stream media is telling me and we know they only tell us the truth.

 

[pennzy]

I have seen many cops standing in solidarity with protesters. Lets not forget protesting is one of the freedoms that separate us from dictatorships.

 

[K Frame Keith]

Sir if there is anyway you can, find yourself a nice quite inside job. As they used to say become a "House Mouse." You have paid your DUES..

Many if not most agencies don't have the manpower or budget to allow Officers to coast their last few years indoors. Mine certainly didn't. Worked the street until the day I retired. But I second your sentiment.

 

[TripLeader]

Wouldn't it be easier to just stay out of trouble? Not to put yourself in a position to deal with police at all?

That's not what I'm talking about at all. The police face violent citizens on a normal basis and are put in situations in which they have to use force.

My point is we all must become better judges of police actions. Especially use of force against citizens. It's very hard to have a conversation about what is just versus what is brutality if we don't know how it is judged within the criminal justice system.

To review YouTube videos of police use of force and make a judgment whether it is wrong or right, and never having heard of Graham v. Connor, or objective reasonableness, is a problem.

We, as citizens, need to know the 4th amendment. Not just what is says. But how, in practice, it regulates police use of force. Then we can judge for ourselves whether or not violent encounters between citizens and police are justified or not. We have to understand the issue before we try to make any changes.

We have to consider the amount of times police use force. Then we have to consider whether those incidents are justified or not. That will provide us with an answer if there is systemic problem with American policing.

We should all think for ourselves, and be educated to be good judges of that force. You also have to know the policies and tactics of the agency for which the police officer serves.

It's a daunting task for a citizen to be able to gather all the information on a single use if force incident, review all video, consider each involved persons view and knowledge at the moment it occurred, compare it to the local agency's policy, and then measure that against what a reasonable police officer would do.

You must do that to appropriately judge police use of force. That is the nutshell version.

 

[susieqz]

civilian review boards investigating police shootings would go a long way
in stopping unrest after a police killing.

 

[Kanewpadle]

That's not what I'm talking about at all. The police face violent citizens on a normal basis and are put in situations in which they have to use force.

My point is we all must become better judges of police actions. Especially use of force against citizens. It's very hard to have a conversation about what is just versus what is brutality if we don't know how it is judged within the criminal justice system.

To review YouTube videos of police use of force and make a judgment whether it is wrong or right, and never having heard of Graham v. Connor, or objective reasonableness, is a problem.

We, as citizens, need to know the 4th amendment. Not just what is says. But how, in practice, it regulates police use of force. Then we can judge for ourselves whether or not violent encounters between citizens and police are justified or not. We have to understand the issue before we try to make any changes.

We have to consider the amount of times police use force. Then we have to consider whether those incidents are justified or not. That will provide us with an answer if there is systemic problem with American policing.

We should all think for ourselves, and be educated to be good judges of that force. You also have to know the policies and tactics of the agency for which the police officer serves.

It's a daunting task for a citizen to be able to gather all the information on a single use if force incident, review all video, consider each involved persons view and knowledge at the moment it occurred, compare it to the local agency's policy, and then measure that against what a reasonable police officer would do.

You must do that to appropriately judge police use of force. That is the nutshell version.

Sorry, not interested. I keep myself out of trouble. I obey the law. I don't run or resist. If I am wronged by cops, there are legal resources if needed.

Ever notice how many repeat offenders that are apprehended? Cops get tired of chasing these guys because of our legal system. They commit a crime and get out of jail with a slap on the wrist. Then they turn around and do it again. But it's not their fault right? No accountability?

Changes are needed at all levels.

It's as simple as that. It doesn't need to be more complicated.

I'm done here because I'm repeating myself.

 

[Fishslayer]

One of the problems is that, for years, the good police do not police the
bad actors in their ranks.

Never been a cop so I have no idea if that's true or false...but...

I can say that that is 100% the public's perception. Mine too. We don't see justice being done. Plenty of unsuitables slip through the psych eval. They don't seem to get weeded out. Nobody wants to get Dorner'd.

Qualified immunity is a powerful drug.

 

[Ματθιας]

Anyone who has grown up in Albuquerque, knows to stay away from APD. They have a history of killing, beating, and getting away with stuff that would put anyone else in jail. They were killing so many people, the FEDs came in. Want to know where the disconnect comes in:

"If any other group of individuals were acting in the way APD has been acting, some of us in law enforcement might refer to them as a continuing criminal enterprise and/or engaged in the act of racketeering." DA Kari Brandenberg Dec. 29, 2016.

There's even a 300+ chapter book about the top to bottom corruption of LE in NM.

[ame="https://www.amazon.com/Bad-Apples-Century-Americas-Enforcement-ebook/dp/B071HCYD9C"]Amazon.com: Bad Apples: A 21st Century History of America's Worst Law Enforcement eBook: Wilson, W.E. : Kindle Store[/ame]

I'm not a criminal, far from it, but, that's the reality of growing up in ABQ. Is it individuals? Is it the system? Culture? I don't know, but I know it's been going on for decades.

That's not perception, that's reality.

Then there's who knows how much in tax payer money that has been paid out to settle who knows how many claims.

 

[K Frame Keith]

civilian review boards investigating police shootings would go a long way
in stopping unrest after a police killing.[/QUO

We once had a councilman who was named Police Commissioner. He was an law school graduate who could never pass the bar exam and was a self employed landscaper living in his parents basement. Of course, he was an expert in Law Enforcement operations on day one. Screwed up a burglary stakeout I was conducting by demanding to know what we were doing while on location. Civilian experts.

 

[bigwheelzip]

We've already started privatizing prisons, Blackwater is assuming an increasing number of traditional military roles, and charter schools are flourishing. The writing is on the wall for outsourcing the civil service.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[Absalom]

One thing gets lost in these discussions:

"THE police" doesn't exist in the United States. According to Wiki, there are currently 17,985 separate law enforcement agencies at all levels local to federal in this country.

Through retired cops among my friends I'm pretty clued into the local department, and know our chief is doing a good job. I also pay attention and study the voter's pamphlet before the sheriff's election, and think I voted for the right guy, who won.

If you don't try to do the same where you live, you don't take your job as a citizen seriously enough.

But I don't know the first thing about selection, training, working conditions, or leadership at the other 17,983 departments and agencies.

So I'm not going to issue any blanket statements of condemnation or support. The officers I've worked with and am friends with, mostly now retired, were all professionals and great guys. As the Minneapolis tape shows, some aren't; fortunately I haven't met any.

But if those "changes" people keep talking about would include not just asking more of this or less of that from officers, but a greater engagement by citizens and a willingness to put their money where their mouth is, better pay and better training might help everybody.

It is worth considering that in most other civilized countries, like in Europe, becoming a fully trained police officer requires 2 to 3 years. The average US academy takes 3 to 6 months, with any further training at the whim of departments. And other countries' cops generally view the American practice of sending officers out alone in a patrol car with disbelief. Just some examples that come back to how much we're willing to invest in good policing.

 

[TripLeader]

Anyone who has grown up in Albuquerque, knows to stay away from APD. They have a history of killing, beating, and getting away with stuff that would put anyone else in jail. They were killing so many people, the FEDs came in. Want to know where the disconnect comes in:

"If any other group of individuals were acting in the way APD has been acting, some of us in law enforcement might refer to them as a continuing criminal enterprise and/or engaged in the act of racketeering." DA Kari Brandenberg Dec. 29, 2016.

There's even a 300+ chapter book about the top to bottom corruption of LE in NM.

Amazon.com: Bad Apples: A 21st Century History of America's Worst Law Enforcement eBook: Wilson, W.E. : Kindle Store

I'm not a criminal, far from it, but, that's the reality of growing up in ABQ. Is it individuals? Is it the system? Culture? I don't know, but I know it's been going on for decades.

That's not perception, that's reality.

Then there's who knows how much in tax payer money that have been paid out to settle who knows how many claims.

There's more to the story. If there was so much criminal activity and the former DA didn't prosecute it, why not? Was she not fulfilling her duty? Was she mis-stating the situation? Or maybe she was right, but something within the criminal justice system hindered her ability to do anything?


The former DA's comments were directed at police administration, not street level officers. She was also accused of misconduct by tampering with a case involving her son, in which he was ultimately convicted of kidnapping. So is she credible? Or just in an unfortunate circumstance?

Every case of a deadly force encounter was investigated. How many were found to be criminal acts by police officers? This is where we have to look at the facts of each individual case and review the police force by the legal standard of reasonableness.

How many 911 calls have gone to the Albuquerque PD before this incidents, during these incidents, and then after these incidents. Do citizens still summon the police to them? Is that a worthwhile study of faith in their local police service?

The DOJ investigated after approx. 20 fatal shootings in the early 2010s. They concluded that most of these shootings had violated constitutional rights. But how many were prosecuted and why or why not? What was going on at APD? Who was in charge and what was their direction of the police service they provided?

It is hard to make a successful prosecution on any murder case, whether a police officer is the defendant or not. Saying it is difficult to prosecute the police is true. Saying it is difficult to prosecute a citizen is equally true.

The local prosecutors have to determine each case on a basis of the individual facts of each case.

The Boyd shooting is one of the most well known deadly force cases at APD. The outcome was a mistrial with the prosecutor not seeking a retrial. One officer involved resigned. The other fired. The fired officer sued and won his job back. Is that outcome evidence of legal justification? Is it evidence of criminal wrong doing? The incident was in video. And yet their is much more to it than just what you see on camera. To be the judge, you have to be educated.

It's very easy to say the police are the problem. It's not easy to know how police actions are legally reviewed. It is easy to put blame on police for what we dislike about society.

My point is this: In this age of divisiveness in America, you have to conduct your own research and think for yourself. Too many people have an agenda and will try to steer your toward their conclusions. Don't judge until you know what each side is saying, and you have checked their facts. Learn how police use of force is judged!

Is there a problem? Are police officers the problem? Are police chiefs and sheriffs who control them the problem? Are mayors and city councils who control police chiefs the problem? Are legislators the problem? Are citizens who elect the legislators the problem?

Who is easiest to blame?

How much racism is in the criminal justice system? None, some, or a lot? How do you measure it? If you can't measure it, than how do you know it exists? If you can't measure it, than how do you know any reforms are reducing it?

 

[JayFramer]

I was downtown here in Vegas in uniform getting some food during my lunch break with some buddies and a LVMPD officer waved at us as he drove by.

Pretty cool and made me feel warm inside.

Those guys (and all police) are sure catching hell lately. In most cases, it's sure not warranted.

 

[biku324]

I took retirement at 21 years just 20 years ago next month. The pension has cost the state more than my salary ever did - there are very few vocations where that is true, so it's got good to go along with the un-good.

It was a huge step up from poverty for me and my family - I never would have gotten any degrees but for seeing that I needed the information, and my kids would never have had the example of watching how hard it was to work and go to college later in life - they went right after high school.

Policing is a good career, but not for folks with thin skin or unrealistic expectations of one's fellow man.

 

[Ματθιας]

There's more to the story. If there was so much criminal activity and the former DA didn't prosecute it, why not? Was she not fulfilling her duty? Was she mis-stating the situation? Or maybe she was right, but something within the criminal justice system hindered her ability to do anything?


The former DA's comments were directed at police administration, not street level officers. She was also accused of misconduct by tampering with a case involving her son, in which he was ultimately convicted of kidnapping. So is she credible? Or just in an unfortunate circumstance?

Every case of a deadly force encounter was investigated. How many were found to be criminal acts by police officers? This is where we have to look at the facts of each individual case and review the police force by the legal standard of reasonableness.

How many 911 calls have gone to the Albuquerque PD before this incidents, during these incidents, and then after these incidents. Do citizens still summon the police to them? Is that a worthwhile study of faith in their local police service?

The DOJ investigated after approx. 20 fatal shootings in the early 2010s. They concluded that most of these shootings had violated constitutional rights. But how many were prosecuted and why or why not? What was going on at APD? Who was in charge and what was their direction of the police service they provided?

It is hard to make a successful prosecution on any murder case, whether a police officer is the defendant or not. Saying it is difficult to prosecute the police is true. Saying it is difficult to prosecute a citizen is equally true.

The local prosecutors have to determine each case on a basis of the individual facts of each case.

The Boyd shooting is one of the most well known deadly force cases at APD. The outcome was a mistrial with the prosecutor not seeking a retrial. One officer involved resigned. The other fired. The fired officer sued and won his job back. Is that outcome evidence of legal justification? Is it evidence of criminal wrong doing? The incident was in video. And yet their is much more to it than just what you see on camera. To be the judge, you have to be educated.

It's very easy to say the police are the problem. It's not easy to know how police actions are legally reviewed. It is easy to put blame on police for what we dislike about society.

My point is this: In this age of divisiveness in America, you have to conduct your own research and think for yourself. Too many people have an agenda and will try to steer your toward their conclusions. Don't judge until you know what each side is saying, and you have checked their facts. Learn how police use of force is judged!

Is there a problem? Are police officers the problem? Are police chiefs and sheriffs who control them the problem? Are mayors and city councils who control police chiefs the problem? Are legislators the problem? Are citizens who elect the legislators the problem?

Who is easiest to blame?

How much racism is in the criminal justice system? None, some, or a lot? How do you measure it? If you can't measure it, than how do you know it exists? If you can't measure it, than how do you know any reforms are reducing it?

Let me be clear, I'm talking about APD, no one else and I'm NOT a fan of APD. Even though I have a relative and one of my long time personal friends is an APD officer, I don't trust them. Period.

I haven't said anything about racism. Nothing.

I've lived in ABQ most of my life. I know the corruption of APD. Remember the evidence room scandal? I do. How about Levi Chavez - did he kill his wife or was it suicide and the involvement of APD in the investigation? Mary Hawkes her prints weren't on the gun but somehow police said it was hers and the officer had a history of not turning on his body cam? How about Mary Han? I could go on...

Apparently, there is a problem. When the police investigate themselves, they usually find they've done nothing wrong. APD has a clear history of violating civil rights - like you said. And it doesn't matter who is in charge or who the city council members were/are when those actions, by the PD have been going on for decades.

I'm speaking for myself and there's not a whole lot anyone is going to say that changes what I've seen, what I know, who I know and my experiences. I don't trust them nor the justice system or the DA.

Note this, I have no problem with BCSO, or the NMSP, none.

BTW if the DA's comments were directed at Police Admin., what crimes were the police Admin committing? If she were talking JUST about the Admin, she would've said, instead she said APD.

 

[kmyers]

The one in the news online that I say go ahead and do is the Minneapolis city council is considering disbanding the police department. I hope that they do. Crime is happening someone calls 911..."I am sorry, that number is no longer in use, you are on your own, pal.". If it happens grab some beers and popcorn and watch the antics.

 

[biku324]

On Albuquerque Police....look at the 1992/93 Christopher Commission's discussion of a 'subculture of violence' and just plug in APD where it says 'LAPD' and see if there are enormous differences. I was not at all surprised at the murder of the homeless camper who was walking away with his back turned by overly aggressive APD officers - the video was worse than appalling. I hope they've been busy fixing that over the past few years.

BTW, I knew the APD partner of the (finally) acquitted officer in the case of the murdered wife of Levi Chavez. He got his job back, by the way, after being fired for reportedly lying to investigators in this case.

 

[Ματθιας]

On Albuquerque Police....look at the 1992/93 Christopher Commission's discussion of a 'subculture of violence' and just plug in APD where it says 'LAPD' and see if there are enormous differences. I was not at all surprised at the murder of the homeless camper who was walking away with his back turned by overly aggressive APD officers - the video was worse than appalling. I hope they've been busy fixing that over the past few years.

BTW, I knew the APD partner of the (finally) acquitted officer in the case of the murdered wife of Levi Chavez. He got his job back, by the way, after being fired for reportedly lying to investigators in this case.

To go along with what you said here's a preview of the Bad Apples book - just in case nobody believes me:

Google Books

The forward is interesting and it cuts off right when it starts to get good...

 

[transit]

It is worth considering that in most other civilized countries, like in Europe, becoming a fully trained police officer requires 2 to 3 years. The average US academy takes 3 to 6 months, with any further training at the whim of departments. And other countries' cops generally view the American practice of sending officers out alone in a patrol car with disbelief. Just some examples that come back to how much we're willing to invest in good policing.

Had to address this oft-misunderstood trope. It does not take years to become a police officer in Europe.

Rather, just like most agencies here, potential recruits get their "60 or 90 credits" or whatever is required for hire, before or as part of being hired.

-And that usually takes... two or three years. They do tend to spend that time in what we call "Criminal Justice" courses, a pursuit of study that, though common here as well, is largely useless as concerns the field. It's more of a "trade school" mentality towards it there.

Regardless, police academies in Europe are not three years long. It doesn't take three years to become a fighter pilot for goodness sake, and certainly not to become a basic patrolman.

A recruit for any major agency in the U.S. spends two, three or four years in college or the military because that is a pre-hiring requirement. Here, that college time is also often spent in CJ courses, though the wiser (or better advised) potential recruits take something that may actually be of value in their futures.

Then it's six months in the police academy. Then they're on probation for a year or more before being considered "fully trained." In NY, an officer is traditionally considered a rookie for five years.

But for some reason no one ever says that it takes "X-number of years" to become a police office here. Probably because it doesn't fit the, "Everyone else does everything better than us." narrative.

 

[pharmer]

One curious but beneficial "side effect" of this madness is the numbers of marked units parked in my neighborhood. less than 400 homes and at least 50 patrol cars in the streets. I guess the "higher ups" figure less chance of "negative encounters" if they don't report to the downtown cop shops. Laptop in every unit for roll call. Joe

 

[pawngal]

A lot of things I'd like to address in this thread so please, bear with.

Ref. Albuquerque, the first time I drove to Arizona by myself I was very bluntly told by several friends & relatives, Do NOT stay overnight in Albuquerque. Mentioned as the"armpit of the SW"

Judging by the number of new "likes" quite a few have read my old thread that I linked here previously. I plan to contact the retired Chief this week and visit with him about his thoughts about the current status of LE. The current Chief has turned out to be more of a desk jockey than I thought he would be., in nearly 3 years he has stopped in the pawnshop 2 or 3 times is all.

Do departments still do D.A.R.E. programs? Or similar offerings to school kids in a non-threatening manner.
LE needs to be involved in the community in non-LE activities. I realize this is hard in big city departments. In my small town departments they help with Little League, Scouts, Ducks Unlimited, Pheasants Forever and such. 2 local officers teach CC classes and Women's Self Defense classes.
Do I know the answers to any of the current state of LE? No, but I do know that we need to support the good guys and gals in any way we can.
Just some random thoughts...

 

[Absalom]

Had to address this oft-misunderstood trope. It does not take years to become a police officer in Europe.

Rather, just like most agencies here, potential recruits get their "60 or 90 credits" or whatever is required for hire, before or as part of being hired.
.........
Regardless, police academies in Europe are not three years long.
..........

Your statements are so general that they are wrong.

I'm neither knowledgeable about nor inclined to research practices in 40-some European countries, but since you give no indication which countries you think you're talking about, I'll just give an example I'm familiar with, the largest German state Northrhine-Westphalia.

After selection, you are assigned to the state's civil service college for a three-year combination study time during which you have to get your bachelor in police work, pass all practical police training modules, firearms training, etc., and complete a number of field training experiences. After that you are usually assigned to a readiness platoon for six months or more where you work in larger units under close supervision. After that you are assigned to your permanent duty station where you never patrol alone.

The only way to avoid this three-year course is if you already have completed a law degree. In that case, you can be admitted to a condensed 4-month practical course followed by a 6-month leadership intership, to prepare for higher positions in police administration.

 

[Farmer17]

Man, I just live in a different universe than a lot on this forum. I've never been arrested though there were times in my younger days I could have been, but I basically stay away from trouble and if I see any I go in the opposite direction even though a lot of times I might be curious. I don't hang out at the bars late at night so I guess I don't see some things that some people here see but I do work on some construction sights in some pretty bad neighborhoods. I've never seen on the news or anywhere else where a LE person uses excessive force against someone who was not resisting arrest. When the people start resisting sometimes the cops use too much force and of course they should be punished but that is pretty rare considering the 10 million arrests made every year in this country. No matter what happens and what changes are made in the future their will always be people resisting arrest and sometimes the police use of force to control them may be a little excessive. Stay the heck out of trouble and you won't have to worry about it.

 

[biku324]

In the Philippines all potential Philippine National Police enlistees must have a bachelors degree in criminal justice before 6 months' police training; some 200 a year are nominated into the Philippine National Police Academy, a 4-year bachelor of public safety degree with old-style US service academy style discipline.

 

[shell627]

Wow I think a lot of members here don't know real police officers. And I think some watch to much Chicago PD.Look Up the numbers of police officers ambushed shot hit with bricks urine feces and had cars firebombed in their driveways with their families home.We have been out working everyday in the virus while citizens and politicians stay behind locked doors.As the old
Indian said walk a mile in my moccasins.I watched my wife sit in the living room and load ar15 mags while the riots were going on in Nashville.She worries and pray's more than I ever remember.And it is not the criminals that worry her as much as the politicians and uninformed public.I have to stop now before I get in trouble again.

 

[charlie sherrill]

I debated with myself about joining this conversation. I was a LEO for over 40 years. My wife was also. She was killed on duty 35 years ago because fellow officers were trying to show constraint. They we trying to wrestle a resisting child molester down so they wouldn't have to hurt him. He came up with a gun and the first shot killed my wife and wounded another officer. I arrived at the scene a few minutes later and my first thought was to kill the ******* but knew if I did my small children wouldn't have anybody to pick them up from daycare. I told one of the other officers to get him out of there. I didn't tell him why I said that. The killer just happened to be black. I harbor no animosities toward black people because of the action of this one man. I've always been fair to everyone and still am. There was a very large funeral but no demonstrations and certainly no riots. Two of her pall bearers were black and we remained very good friends until they passed away. From what I can see, and it's not very clear, the officer in Minneapolis did not follow policy. I'm not going to take up for him, but I don't think he came to work that day looking for someone to kill. He violated policy but there was no malice and aforethought, a very important element in the crime of murder. At the very least he may be guilty of manslaughter or whatever they call that in Minneapolis. The Constitution provides for the right of peaceful protest. You don't have the right to riot, kill, loot, or burn things up. I mostly agree with the protesters. I don't even come close to agreeing with the rioters. If you will look at the rioters backgrounds you will find that most are PAID outside agitators that are bussed in to create trouble and weaken our nations laws and our peoples rights. There is proof they are paid and the government knows who is paying them. Why are the people bankrolling the anarchy not being arrested and prosecuted? Could it be that they have contributed to many political campaigns and already have too much immunity from prosecution? I've got another large problem with all of this. Evey week across this country hundreds of blacks are killed. But, it's not white folks doing this. They are doing it to each other. Why doesn't BLM and others start programs or whatever to stop this slaughter? This is a terrible waste of life and I very seldom hear anyone discuss this problem, and when they do they want to do away with 2A and not try to change the attitudes that cause this. If I'm wrong on this you can let me know, but I've had several good black friends killed for some pretty stupid reasons.