Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
A recent discussion on handguns for protection from bears (#12,867 in a series) played out in the 1945-1980 revolver forum. I just now stumbled across some fascinating info on another forum. Not theory, real world, actual bear shootings with pistols.
The post was by a Russian working with the government. I will copy and paste his comments. You draw your own conclusions.
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So , ladies and gentlemen , sorry for the long wait I promised statistics. A lot of work was . I want to first talk about these statistics is that you could understand what it represents. I will allow myself here to copy a piece of text from my other post. In the ballistic laboratory of the Federal Judicial Examination Center of Ministry of Justice of the Russian Federation , where I had the privilege to work , there is a giant , but in my opinion poorly rated , selection of materials on the results of the use of firearms .
Part of their dedicated use of non- hunting weapons for hunting and self-defense , even from animals. It is large enough statistical data to based on it can draw conclusions about the effects of various types of small arms , including rifles and handguns, in virtually all common animal.
These statistics are accumulated in different ways. Largest and most complete part , on the basis of documented cases directly to the scene, and confirmed by numerous proven track record .
The other part is made up of statements and reports of the various parties, but with no physical evidence . Typically, these cases refer to situations where the evidence lost, or when the participants are not able to point ( to find) the scene, or occurring in hard to reach places , or places is not located on the territory of Russia . However, it should be noted that despite the lack of documentary material in these cases, they are usually on the testimony of the participants do not differ from similar, but with a serious documentary base that speaks to their credibility.
So "korotkostvol" . Most of the materials in cases of self-defense pistols and revolvers from bears , not fresh. They basically fixed before the 80s , but there are , of course, and newer . Please tell about the total number of cases of self-defense against bears and weapons used in this case . Actually fixed number of them much more of my said , but otherwise things were so confusing and not clear that working with them is extremely difficult. I used only the most complete and reliable , proven physical evidence , the testimony of witnesses and participants. In some cases , we measured the mass of dead animals. But not mentioned by me in less clear cases , the overall proportion of successful and not successful cases on models of weapons , almost the same , which is important for our generalization. How not to fall under the concept of the effectiveness of the weapons are not cases where a person shot in the air, regardless of the outcome. Just not reported cases where people do not have time to use the weapon , or did not shoot for any other reason .
Weapons chambered 7.62/25 TT and 7.63 Mauser .
It's a TT pistol and revolver model 1896 , various modifications. Since almost the same , and even interchangeable ammunition , their effect is identical . Based on this, I have presented cases with the participation of one united group.
Since the 30s of the 20th century , 30 have carefully documented cases. Of these, 21 cases opened fire from a distance of at least 2 meters. Of the 21 th person 14 people did not receive any public damage , 4 people received injuries of varying severity, 3 died. In these 21 cases, 14 bears were killed and found .
9 people opened fire from a distance of less than 2 meters killed 3 people, 2 more were injured , 4 are not affected . Killed were found five bears. It should be noted that the determination of the distance ' less than 2 meters ' probation and summarized , from 2 meters to direct contact, so as to establish its exact value in this situation is impossible.
The largest bear killed by weapons of this caliber ( TT pistol ) , had a mass of 310 kg . In other cases the weight of animals was very different and ranged from 70 to 280 kg . Unfortunately it stood was not done frequently, and on the basis of available data , to identify a direct relationship between weight and survival of the beast , it's hard . Often simply stated that the beast big, medium or small size . Without specifying the mass, such definitions are somewhat subjective. Cases where the bear was killed , not always coincide with the cases where a person does not get hurt . It should be noted that quite often, even in the event of death of a person , animal , too, died , and he was found nearby. Obviously, the dead animal is not always sought , therefore, similar incidents have occurred more frequently.
Weapons under the 7.62 revolver cartridge ' Nagant ' .
Actually, it is only the revolver ' Nagant ' . Cases of its use the most - 38 , 30 of them from a distance of more than 2 meters. Of the 30 , only 16 people have been injured at all , 8 killed , 6 received various injuries. In these 30 cases, 13 were found dead bears.
Of the 8 opened fire from less than 2 m , 2 people died , 4 received various injuries, 2 is not affected at all. 4 found dead bear.
The largest bear, whose weight was recorded weighed 238 kg . Of the features of the wound ballistics of this caliber revolver pointed out that the bullets ' Nagant ' is not always break through the cranial bones of a large bear. In such cases, a more productive is hit in the chest and neck area . In general, if we compare this with the same caliber of diameter 7.62 \ 25TT , and 7.63 Mauser , it is clear that ' Revolver ' has less killer , stopping and penetrating action
Weapons chambered for 9x18 Mak.
Reliably documented 26 incidents of gun PM, and 2 cases of the use of APS pistol .
Of the 26 cases of PM in 19 cases , shooting start to lead from a distance of more than 2 meters. In these 19 cases, 10 people were injured at all , 4 died and 5 were injured . 10 found dead bears.
Of the 7 opened fire from less than 2 m , 3 is not affected , 2 were injured and two were killed. 3 killed and found the bear.
Documented cases of the use of the pistol APS , for our consideration of little use - only two of them . In one case the bear was killed , and the man was not injured, but the judge noticeable impact on one occasion , I would not. In the second case, the fire was a queue at a distance of about 5 meters and the bear was killed on the spot. But this case is all the more so can not be considered in the context of the effectiveness of pistols, from the fact that the knockdown in the automatic mode is much superior to single shots .
The largest weighted beast of those killed by the caliber of 9 \ 18 has a mass of 247 kg . The bullets of this caliber does not always break through the skull , and clearly inferior to the action of bullets CT / Mauser , but somewhat superior to the action revolver bullets ' Revolver ' .
Weapons chambered for 7.65 \ 17 Browning .
It includes a variety of foreign-made guns that were in vogue in the Soviet Union during the period from the 20s and partly in the post-war period . They provide a diversity of structures and likely different muzzle energy for the same cartridge.
Cases of self-defense from a bear with a weapon caliber 7.65 \ 17 were caused by apparently only a desperate necessity. With the necessary certainty can lead 17 such cases. In 11 cases, the shooting started with more than 2 meters . Not affected at all only 4 people , 3 were injured , 4 were killed. 4 killed and found the bear.
In 6 cases , when fire was opened less than 2 meters were still alive and not injured only 2 people . 2 more people received various injuries and the 2nd died. Were killed and found two bears.
About chucks 7.65 \ 17 that have been made at the time, you will notice that their energy is significantly inferior to modern patrons 7.65 \ 17 , who reached the usual energies , from about 70's 20th century. In addition , these cartridges domestic production, combined with instability characteristics.
Weapons chambered for 9 \ 19 Para.
Weapons under this cartridge , we have been producing not so long ago , and in such cases it has not yet been observed . All uses of handguns 9 \ 19 relate to the use of various foreign-made pistol used in the USSR in the war , and partly the postwar period. They had a different design , but they were mostly Parabellum- 08 and Walther P- 38.
Were 17 cases of use of weapons of caliber 9 \ 19 to bear that meet the criteria of completeness . In 10 cases, the weapon was used from a distance of more than 2 meters. Of these seven cases, people do not receive any injuries , 2nd traumatized and one died . 7 was found dead bears.
Of the seven cases, the use of weapons from a distance of less than 2 meters , 3 people were not injured , 2 injured , 2 killed . 4 killed and found the bear.
The largest of the weighted weighed 280 kg . Weight remaining ranged from 90 to 230 kg . In general it can be noted that the effectiveness of the bullets fired from pistols 9 \ 19 , similar to the effect of bullets efficiency 7.62 \ 25 fired from a pistol TT. It should also be noted that patrons 9 \ 19 , production is now greatly enhanced , compared with the cartridges 9 \ 19 times previously , and used in all these cases.
Weapons chambered for 6.35 ( 25ASR ) .
From domestic pistols to treat them Korovin pistol , but other than it used a lot of foreign guns of this caliber. The gun Korovin produced reinforced cartridge, but it could also be used in other models. Besides its gain with respect to the subject is unimportant.
Been 12 attempts to self-defense from a bear with a caliber of 6.35 ( 25ASR ) . Of these, probably in 8 cases , shot from a distance of more than 2 meters. Not affected 3 people , 1 were injured , 4 were killed.
Of the 4 cases of shooting with less than 2 meters 1 person was damaged , 3 died.
The cartridge of this caliber is extremely weak , and it is not suitable for such situations . Only an extremely desperate situation could lead to their use . In addition , statistical analysis of situations with its use complicated by the fact that the survivors of those who have tried to apply it is much less than in other gauges are applied . Of the 12 cases of its use was murdered and found only one bear .
Weapons chambered 11.43 (.45 ACP)
Actually, it is only pistols Colt M -1911 , have been reported to us during the 2nd World War, the United States. Statistics of their use is very small and does not allow for a complete withdrawal of their effectiveness .
Of the 9 cases , shooting from a distance of more than 2 meters was carried out in 7 cases . One person was injured , the other 6 no damage. It was found killed and seven bears.
Of the two cases when shot from a distance of less than 2 meters , one person is injured , the other was injured. 1 bear was killed , and it is injured man.
Unfortunately , the weight of any of the bears killed by the bullets of this caliber is not marked , and the annotation ' beast had a very large size " is very subjective.
You can certainly argue that the caliber 45ASR most effective and this is confirmed by the fact that out of the 9 people who were defending them , no one was killed . But we must not forget that the statistics on 45ASR the most numerous, and in my opinion , is not beyond chance.
In my view , none of the presented calibration is not necessary for how - ever protection against bears. They may be divided only into 3 groups.
The first I would carry guns ' conditionally acceptable ' for such a defense . They have the caliber 45ASR , 9 \ 19 , and 7.62 \ 25TT . Somewhat surprising effect of the latter caliber. Even humans, it does not always stop a bullet , but it has some efficacy bear. This, in my opinion, due to the greater density of tissues bear and as a result, better energy transfer to them . That is, while the energy for the big bear is not enough , in his body , it consumes more completely and efficiently than in the human body , which almost always is a bullet pierces through, needlessly taking away most of the energy . Of course, as the man he still works much better , as it is usually more than enough , and the energy that has time to give a bullet.
The second group I can carry guns ' leaving hope . " They have the caliber 9 \ 18 7.62 7.65 Nagant and partly \ 17 Browning . These statistics show that they leave a chance to escape , but no more. It should be noted that after the attacker to shoot a bear , it is not always continues the attack . Apparently the pain and fear yet sometimes it stops . If the bear was always going to end, casualties among the defenders would have been as much more , and among the defenders of such caliber , especially.
The third group includes guns ' chance of not leaving . " This weapon caliber 6.35 ( 25ASR ) . Of course , cases of salvation through such weapons are, but in my opinion it is rather a reaction of an animal to pain and fear than the merit of weapons. Proof of this is a small and insignificant one (! ) the number of those bears killed in such a defense. Of course, the use of larger caliber , part animal was not killed , and also retreated under the influence of fear and pain, but as a rule , more than half were found dead .
The generalized use of statistics , it is difficult to conclude that distinguished the situation in which people do not suffer from those which were lost. Basically survive in situations where the bear died , literally riddled with bullets. But often killed a beast, lying next to the dead or crippled man, and sometimes opposite , the man turned out to be unharmed and the bear , stopping the attack tried to escape. So the clear conclusion is still there . One thing is clear - the more likely it was , the more people have time to shoot and hit.
In addition to these gauges , there are also adequately documented cases of the use of pistols and revolvers other, more rare in our caliber . I have not seen fit to give them , because they were isolated, and therefore do not allow their proper evaluation
The post was by a Russian working with the government. I will copy and paste his comments. You draw your own conclusions.
-----------------------------------------------------------
So , ladies and gentlemen , sorry for the long wait I promised statistics. A lot of work was . I want to first talk about these statistics is that you could understand what it represents. I will allow myself here to copy a piece of text from my other post. In the ballistic laboratory of the Federal Judicial Examination Center of Ministry of Justice of the Russian Federation , where I had the privilege to work , there is a giant , but in my opinion poorly rated , selection of materials on the results of the use of firearms .
Part of their dedicated use of non- hunting weapons for hunting and self-defense , even from animals. It is large enough statistical data to based on it can draw conclusions about the effects of various types of small arms , including rifles and handguns, in virtually all common animal.
These statistics are accumulated in different ways. Largest and most complete part , on the basis of documented cases directly to the scene, and confirmed by numerous proven track record .
The other part is made up of statements and reports of the various parties, but with no physical evidence . Typically, these cases refer to situations where the evidence lost, or when the participants are not able to point ( to find) the scene, or occurring in hard to reach places , or places is not located on the territory of Russia . However, it should be noted that despite the lack of documentary material in these cases, they are usually on the testimony of the participants do not differ from similar, but with a serious documentary base that speaks to their credibility.
So "korotkostvol" . Most of the materials in cases of self-defense pistols and revolvers from bears , not fresh. They basically fixed before the 80s , but there are , of course, and newer . Please tell about the total number of cases of self-defense against bears and weapons used in this case . Actually fixed number of them much more of my said , but otherwise things were so confusing and not clear that working with them is extremely difficult. I used only the most complete and reliable , proven physical evidence , the testimony of witnesses and participants. In some cases , we measured the mass of dead animals. But not mentioned by me in less clear cases , the overall proportion of successful and not successful cases on models of weapons , almost the same , which is important for our generalization. How not to fall under the concept of the effectiveness of the weapons are not cases where a person shot in the air, regardless of the outcome. Just not reported cases where people do not have time to use the weapon , or did not shoot for any other reason .
Weapons chambered 7.62/25 TT and 7.63 Mauser .
It's a TT pistol and revolver model 1896 , various modifications. Since almost the same , and even interchangeable ammunition , their effect is identical . Based on this, I have presented cases with the participation of one united group.
Since the 30s of the 20th century , 30 have carefully documented cases. Of these, 21 cases opened fire from a distance of at least 2 meters. Of the 21 th person 14 people did not receive any public damage , 4 people received injuries of varying severity, 3 died. In these 21 cases, 14 bears were killed and found .
9 people opened fire from a distance of less than 2 meters killed 3 people, 2 more were injured , 4 are not affected . Killed were found five bears. It should be noted that the determination of the distance ' less than 2 meters ' probation and summarized , from 2 meters to direct contact, so as to establish its exact value in this situation is impossible.
The largest bear killed by weapons of this caliber ( TT pistol ) , had a mass of 310 kg . In other cases the weight of animals was very different and ranged from 70 to 280 kg . Unfortunately it stood was not done frequently, and on the basis of available data , to identify a direct relationship between weight and survival of the beast , it's hard . Often simply stated that the beast big, medium or small size . Without specifying the mass, such definitions are somewhat subjective. Cases where the bear was killed , not always coincide with the cases where a person does not get hurt . It should be noted that quite often, even in the event of death of a person , animal , too, died , and he was found nearby. Obviously, the dead animal is not always sought , therefore, similar incidents have occurred more frequently.
Weapons under the 7.62 revolver cartridge ' Nagant ' .
Actually, it is only the revolver ' Nagant ' . Cases of its use the most - 38 , 30 of them from a distance of more than 2 meters. Of the 30 , only 16 people have been injured at all , 8 killed , 6 received various injuries. In these 30 cases, 13 were found dead bears.
Of the 8 opened fire from less than 2 m , 2 people died , 4 received various injuries, 2 is not affected at all. 4 found dead bear.
The largest bear, whose weight was recorded weighed 238 kg . Of the features of the wound ballistics of this caliber revolver pointed out that the bullets ' Nagant ' is not always break through the cranial bones of a large bear. In such cases, a more productive is hit in the chest and neck area . In general, if we compare this with the same caliber of diameter 7.62 \ 25TT , and 7.63 Mauser , it is clear that ' Revolver ' has less killer , stopping and penetrating action
Weapons chambered for 9x18 Mak.
Reliably documented 26 incidents of gun PM, and 2 cases of the use of APS pistol .
Of the 26 cases of PM in 19 cases , shooting start to lead from a distance of more than 2 meters. In these 19 cases, 10 people were injured at all , 4 died and 5 were injured . 10 found dead bears.
Of the 7 opened fire from less than 2 m , 3 is not affected , 2 were injured and two were killed. 3 killed and found the bear.
Documented cases of the use of the pistol APS , for our consideration of little use - only two of them . In one case the bear was killed , and the man was not injured, but the judge noticeable impact on one occasion , I would not. In the second case, the fire was a queue at a distance of about 5 meters and the bear was killed on the spot. But this case is all the more so can not be considered in the context of the effectiveness of pistols, from the fact that the knockdown in the automatic mode is much superior to single shots .
The largest weighted beast of those killed by the caliber of 9 \ 18 has a mass of 247 kg . The bullets of this caliber does not always break through the skull , and clearly inferior to the action of bullets CT / Mauser , but somewhat superior to the action revolver bullets ' Revolver ' .
Weapons chambered for 7.65 \ 17 Browning .
It includes a variety of foreign-made guns that were in vogue in the Soviet Union during the period from the 20s and partly in the post-war period . They provide a diversity of structures and likely different muzzle energy for the same cartridge.
Cases of self-defense from a bear with a weapon caliber 7.65 \ 17 were caused by apparently only a desperate necessity. With the necessary certainty can lead 17 such cases. In 11 cases, the shooting started with more than 2 meters . Not affected at all only 4 people , 3 were injured , 4 were killed. 4 killed and found the bear.
In 6 cases , when fire was opened less than 2 meters were still alive and not injured only 2 people . 2 more people received various injuries and the 2nd died. Were killed and found two bears.
About chucks 7.65 \ 17 that have been made at the time, you will notice that their energy is significantly inferior to modern patrons 7.65 \ 17 , who reached the usual energies , from about 70's 20th century. In addition , these cartridges domestic production, combined with instability characteristics.
Weapons chambered for 9 \ 19 Para.
Weapons under this cartridge , we have been producing not so long ago , and in such cases it has not yet been observed . All uses of handguns 9 \ 19 relate to the use of various foreign-made pistol used in the USSR in the war , and partly the postwar period. They had a different design , but they were mostly Parabellum- 08 and Walther P- 38.
Were 17 cases of use of weapons of caliber 9 \ 19 to bear that meet the criteria of completeness . In 10 cases, the weapon was used from a distance of more than 2 meters. Of these seven cases, people do not receive any injuries , 2nd traumatized and one died . 7 was found dead bears.
Of the seven cases, the use of weapons from a distance of less than 2 meters , 3 people were not injured , 2 injured , 2 killed . 4 killed and found the bear.
The largest of the weighted weighed 280 kg . Weight remaining ranged from 90 to 230 kg . In general it can be noted that the effectiveness of the bullets fired from pistols 9 \ 19 , similar to the effect of bullets efficiency 7.62 \ 25 fired from a pistol TT. It should also be noted that patrons 9 \ 19 , production is now greatly enhanced , compared with the cartridges 9 \ 19 times previously , and used in all these cases.
Weapons chambered for 6.35 ( 25ASR ) .
From domestic pistols to treat them Korovin pistol , but other than it used a lot of foreign guns of this caliber. The gun Korovin produced reinforced cartridge, but it could also be used in other models. Besides its gain with respect to the subject is unimportant.
Been 12 attempts to self-defense from a bear with a caliber of 6.35 ( 25ASR ) . Of these, probably in 8 cases , shot from a distance of more than 2 meters. Not affected 3 people , 1 were injured , 4 were killed.
Of the 4 cases of shooting with less than 2 meters 1 person was damaged , 3 died.
The cartridge of this caliber is extremely weak , and it is not suitable for such situations . Only an extremely desperate situation could lead to their use . In addition , statistical analysis of situations with its use complicated by the fact that the survivors of those who have tried to apply it is much less than in other gauges are applied . Of the 12 cases of its use was murdered and found only one bear .
Weapons chambered 11.43 (.45 ACP)
Actually, it is only pistols Colt M -1911 , have been reported to us during the 2nd World War, the United States. Statistics of their use is very small and does not allow for a complete withdrawal of their effectiveness .
Of the 9 cases , shooting from a distance of more than 2 meters was carried out in 7 cases . One person was injured , the other 6 no damage. It was found killed and seven bears.
Of the two cases when shot from a distance of less than 2 meters , one person is injured , the other was injured. 1 bear was killed , and it is injured man.
Unfortunately , the weight of any of the bears killed by the bullets of this caliber is not marked , and the annotation ' beast had a very large size " is very subjective.
You can certainly argue that the caliber 45ASR most effective and this is confirmed by the fact that out of the 9 people who were defending them , no one was killed . But we must not forget that the statistics on 45ASR the most numerous, and in my opinion , is not beyond chance.
In my view , none of the presented calibration is not necessary for how - ever protection against bears. They may be divided only into 3 groups.
The first I would carry guns ' conditionally acceptable ' for such a defense . They have the caliber 45ASR , 9 \ 19 , and 7.62 \ 25TT . Somewhat surprising effect of the latter caliber. Even humans, it does not always stop a bullet , but it has some efficacy bear. This, in my opinion, due to the greater density of tissues bear and as a result, better energy transfer to them . That is, while the energy for the big bear is not enough , in his body , it consumes more completely and efficiently than in the human body , which almost always is a bullet pierces through, needlessly taking away most of the energy . Of course, as the man he still works much better , as it is usually more than enough , and the energy that has time to give a bullet.
The second group I can carry guns ' leaving hope . " They have the caliber 9 \ 18 7.62 7.65 Nagant and partly \ 17 Browning . These statistics show that they leave a chance to escape , but no more. It should be noted that after the attacker to shoot a bear , it is not always continues the attack . Apparently the pain and fear yet sometimes it stops . If the bear was always going to end, casualties among the defenders would have been as much more , and among the defenders of such caliber , especially.
The third group includes guns ' chance of not leaving . " This weapon caliber 6.35 ( 25ASR ) . Of course , cases of salvation through such weapons are, but in my opinion it is rather a reaction of an animal to pain and fear than the merit of weapons. Proof of this is a small and insignificant one (! ) the number of those bears killed in such a defense. Of course, the use of larger caliber , part animal was not killed , and also retreated under the influence of fear and pain, but as a rule , more than half were found dead .
The generalized use of statistics , it is difficult to conclude that distinguished the situation in which people do not suffer from those which were lost. Basically survive in situations where the bear died , literally riddled with bullets. But often killed a beast, lying next to the dead or crippled man, and sometimes opposite , the man turned out to be unharmed and the bear , stopping the attack tried to escape. So the clear conclusion is still there . One thing is clear - the more likely it was , the more people have time to shoot and hit.
In addition to these gauges , there are also adequately documented cases of the use of pistols and revolvers other, more rare in our caliber . I have not seen fit to give them , because they were isolated, and therefore do not allow their proper evaluation
jk
