Was the "Value Series" the zenith of S&W metal frame pistols?

[JohnHL]

Recently, member kmk008 proposed this thought and response provoking thread: https://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-semi-auto-pistols/717897-when-peak-3rd-gen.html

In my response to this literary question, I opined that the TSW series of guns was the top.

Others of course, quite logically pointed to the Performance Center offerings.

Even the 2nd gens were mentioned.

All well reasoned answers.

But I got to thinking...

What was it that the design team on the Value Series was able to give us that all the engineers, designers, builders, and pistol smiths of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gen base, TSW, and even the vaunted Performance Center models never achieved?

Your answers, please.

John

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Back then I would left the "value series" on a table iffen the table was marked.........FREE TAKE ONE..........

 

[Aussie Collector]

What was it that the design team on the Value Series was able to give us that all the engineers, designers, builders, and pistol smiths of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gen base, TSW, and even the vaunted Performance Center models never achieved?

Cheap, plain looking pistols.

 

[stansdds]

Glock was taking over the law enforcement market, which had been S&W's domain. S&W did not have a low cost, polymer receiver pistol to compete with Glock, so they simplified their metal receiver pistols to create the Value Series. S&W reduced the radius cuts on the top of the slide and the dust cover on the receiver, eliminated the second locking lug on the barrel, MIM trigger and hammer, plastic recoil spring guide rod, disconnector, mainspring cup, and sights. The finish was simplified with no polishing, just a matte surface, aluminum was anodized, carbon steel given a quick pass through the bluing tanks.

It saved S&W money and they passed the savings on to customers, but the pistols looked cheap and were still heavier than a similar size Glock. Given that the Glock was still cheaper, still lighter in weight, and was not a DA/SA trigger design, S&W still lost market share to Glock.

 

[hoytx10]

Can't agree with the value series being the apogee of anything.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

They gave us value. Good guns that worked for people who were not Navy Seals or Green Berets, who wanted a reasonable basic firearm to defend their homes and learn marksmanship and firearm maintenance with. My first firearm was a S&W Model 915. I still have it, and bought another one. It was doorway to a new hobby leading to many handguns including S&W revolvers,
numerous rifles, shotguns and related activities and most importantly friends. A good investment of $250 at the Berea Ohio gun show all those years back. Thanks OPD Sharpshooter who talked me into the show and buying the Model 915.

 

[CH4]

For me the zenith of Smith autos were the 3rd gen pre black hammer/trigger, silly billboards and rails. My favorites are 10XX, 45XX and those with with frame mounted decockers.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I wouldn't call the "Value Series" the zenith of anything. Any of them I have owned were replaced with their "proper" siblings at a later date.

 

[DUSTYDOGDAN]

Not the top of the of the series but as a young guy in his 20's I was able to afford a 457 and a 915 in one year.
I love them both and still have the pistols.

 

[kmk008]

I'll join in here as well. I actually really like the frame lines on the 411 and 915. I'm a righty so the ambi-safety doesn't make a big difference to me. My 411 is far more pleasant to carry than my 4006 and 4004's are nearly nonexistent.

 

[4T5GUY]

While I've never sought out any of the various "Value Lines" I have accumulated a few. There are things I like about them and things I don't. I like the lines of the frames with the angled dust cover, (not unlike the 3913/14 LS and NL's,) but dislike the blocky slides. I don't like the pressed on spring backed magazine release buttons and plastic sights, (on most.) At least the sights can be replaced/upgraded and release buttons and springs are available.

Even though the Chief Specials are "Value Lines" they are great little pistols. Like many here my first one was a gateway for more.

Thanks to JohnHL I found out with a complete CS40 upper and magazine, (s,) my CS45 can be a convertible. A CS40 barrel can be converted to 10mm so conceivably one lower can be a three caliber convertible. How cool is that ?

Jim

 

[murphydog]

A functionally identical gun to the higher priced versions in the lineup. That, and plastic guide rods.

 

[Sevens]

Is it possible that the Value Line pistols are the Magnavox, Quasar or possibly the Curtis Mathis of the S&W metal framed pistols?

(yes, I had to visit a wikipedia page of old school television brands to populate my post.)

 

[Frank Black]

Love my Value Line M411. Great shooter!

 

[JohnHL]

All very good and thoughtful answers, gentlemen.

But Jim (4T5GUY) came the closest to my thinking. (Sorry, Jim ).

What the "Value Series" design team brought us that no one at S&W had brought us before was...

(Drum roll)

Sub Compacts!!!

(Compact sized pistols were the smallest metal frame, center fire, semi autos that S&W had released, up to that time.)

The "Chiefs Special" Series!

These pistols are "Value Series" down to their "pea-pickin'" little plastic rear sights and snap on mag release button hearts.

Somebody said, "Let's chop a 457" and the CS40/45 was born.

Somebody else said, "Let's chop a 908" and the CS9 was born.

And they work!

Luckily, they chose to delete the weird plastic front sight and go with the sight from the "higher line" models.

Of course the "Value Series" design team had their off days, too.

Somebody said, "S&W hasn't been able to sell any appreciable quantities of full size, single stack 9mm pistols (especially in blue) since the model 59 was introduced, so let's build the model 909!"

Yeah, I've never seen one in real life either.

So again, my answer is the Sub Compact CS pistols.

S&W has many great designs, but no one there made a sub compact that ran reliably enough to bring to market until the Value Series team did.

Anxiously awaiting your slings and arrows.

John

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Even though the Chief Specials are "Value Lines" they are great little pistols. Like many here my first one was a gateway for more.

While there's no doubting the CS's were a Value Series product, in price & appearance, I've tended to look past that because of their uniqueness.

Their guide rod's plastic plunger tip can be swapped with a metal plunger cannibalized from a spare sibling's all metal guide rod, if needed.

Additonally their plastic sights can be swapped out for nice metal Trijicon Night Sights & their magazine's larger, & a tad harder to conceal, finger base plate can be swapped for Kahr's flat metal ones.

And while the single stack sub-compact CS9 was the smallest 3rd Gen it's hard for it to match the dual-stack micro-compact CSX (5th Gen? ) in utility, though not in nostalgia, IMO.

I have room in my safe for both.

.



.

 

[hoytx10]

And the zenith subcompact is the 945.

 

[LVSteve]

The Value range got people into S&Ws who couldn't afford the full Gucci pieces. Maybe that does not make them as the zenith of the steel guns, but it is definitely a good thing.

 

[GaryS]

The 909 was a baffling decision as the 3904/06 didn't sell particularly well. The double stack 9mm guns killed the market for full size single stacks. The 3913/14 were smaller versions of the 3904/06 for all intents and purposes. That made a lot of sense.

Along with the 457, the CS guns were the great products of the Value Line guns. Who and why they came up with those will likely never be known, but it was a great decision.

All very good and thoughtful answers, gentlemen.

But Jim (4T5GUY) came the closest to my thinking. (Sorry, Jim ).

What the "Value Series" design team brought us that no one at S&W had brought us before was...

(Drum roll)

Sub Compacts!!!

(Compact sized pistols were the smallest metal frame, center fire, semi autos that S&W had released, up to that time.)

The "Chiefs Special" Series!

These pistols are "Value Series" down to their "pea-pickin'" little plastic rear sights and snap on mag release button hearts.

Somebody said, "Let's chop a 457" and the CS40/45 was born.

Somebody else said, "Let's chop a 908" and the CS9 was born.

And they work!

Luckily, they chose to delete the weird plastic front sight and go with the sight from the "higher line" models.

Of course the "Value Series" design team had their off days, too.

Somebody said, "S&W hasn't been able to sell any appreciable quantities of full size, single stack 9mm pistols (especially in blue) since the model 59 was introduced, so let's build the model 909!"

Yeah, I've never seen one in real life either.

So again, my answer is the Sub Compact CS pistols.

S&W has many great designs, but no one there made a sub compact that ran reliably enough to bring to market until the Value Series team did.

Anxiously awaiting your slings and arrows.

John

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Cheap, plain looking pistols.

Some with plastic sights..........YUK!

 

[Sevens]

But but but!!!!! BLUEDOT37 cheated!!!

He's got some kind of a TercGen style grip on his CS-9. The big gooey black marshmallow they shipped on these was universally abhorred. And the excellent grip that he shows on the photo was not an option. It had to be created.

I owned a CS-9 for a short time. I did not like it, I do not miss it.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I owned a CS-9 for a short time. I did not like it, I do not miss it.

Yup-Me too. The CS-9 grip frame and the two available magazine base plates did not produce a combo that I could hold successfully. My pinky was either partially falling off the frame with plain baseplate or smashed with the rest baseplate. A variant of the 391X with the 3" barrel would have been outstanding- it's grip length with the finger rest mag fits my hand like a glove.

 

[GerSan69]

Hmmm.... IMO the Value Series has the handling, operation and accuracy of the 3rd Gen pistols at a lower cost. Getting a 457 and later a 908 when I did (well after the years when I was buying pistols for work) has allowed me the luxury of comparing them head to head and I gotta tell ya, even with some plastic (Delrin?) parts, I don't feel like the Values are any less of a gun. All of them regardless of caliber are just a hoot and a half to put a few magazines through.

 

[4T5GUY]

Cheap, plain looking pistols.

Well like they say, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

I like hearing that so many don't like the CS's. Maybe that's why most of the ones I've found were so inexpensive.

Years ago a new vehicle that came with cheap factory rims/tires was serviceable but custom rims/tires could improve looks and handling. There was value in a base model. You could use that savings to improve that vehicle or not.

Jim

 

[Yendor357]

We've all seen businesses that made us think: "Man that place is going down hill."
And a month or 2 later they're out of business. That was the value series.

And with that something great died. Never to return.

 

[Brian Parrish]

Love my Value Line M411. Great shooter!

I make a distinction in my mind between the "American Pride Series", the 411 and the 915, and the "Value Series", the 410 and the 910 etc. If you own a 4006 don't bother getting the 411 or 410. If you own the 411, don't bother with the others. If you own the 410. get a couple of 11 round mags and be happy.

What makes one gun better than another is YOU. Your skill and fight are what counts. A gunfight is more fight than gun.

Kind Regards!
BrianD

 

[Landric]

My favorite S&W pistol is the 3913, so much to offer, so well made, so easy to carry. I recently acquired this nice NL example for under $500 all in. Great price now, but I remember when these guns couldn't be given away used at $300.

 

[Frank Black]

Should've included an obligatory pic of my M411 in my earlier post (#14).

Stumbled into it at the LGS in late 2019 before all the Pandem-panic b.s. It came with the original box, papers, and 3 mags. Finish was worn a bit on the frame near the muzzle, but the internals and the barrel were pristine. This gun was likely carried way more than it was ever shot. Pricing was fire-sale cheap as a "discontinued" gun.

 

[Michaelp57]

Berea gun show

They gave us value. Good guns that worked for people who were not Navy Seals or Green Berets, who wanted a reasonable basic firearm to defend their homes and learn marksmanship and firearm maintenance with. My first firearm was a S&W Model 915. I still have it, and bought another one. It was doorway to a new hobby leading to many handguns including S&W revolvers,
numerous rifles, shotguns and related activities and most importantly friends. A good investment of $250 at the Berea Ohio gun show all those years back. Thanks OPD Sharpshooter who talked me into the show and buying the Model 915.

I have spotted many 3rd gens at the berea gun show. Never for $250 though or I would have a lot more of them.

I know the OP has found the line of thinking he was looking for, but I would also include accessible, quality firearms in that. Something that smith and wesson still does well with the m&p series today.

 

[armorer951]

What did the "value" series provide that the "1st, 2nd, and 3rd gen base, TSW, and even the vaunted Performance Center models never achieved?"

A horrible external finish, and some plastic internal parts.



Carter