WVfishguy
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If there HAD been a .41 Special, S&W would have sold more Model 58's to police departments.
Waste of Skin... Or Actually Waste of N Frame
- Thread starter NE450No2
- Start date
If there HAD been a .41 Special, S&W would have sold more Model 58's to police departments.
Evil One
Member
Well... you CAN buy the brass and load your own .41 special
RugerForum.com :: View topic - Starline .41 special brass F/S
Jim
BUFF
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
The .41 Magnum guns and cartridge WAS NOT what the proponents of it had in mind at the time.
Skeeter Skelton discussed it several times. What he and his cohorts proposed was their vision of the ideal law enforcement gun and cartridge, a .40-.41 caliber cartridge with a 200-ish grain bullet at about .38 Special velocities (850 fps). It would be easy to handle compared to the .357 and .44 Mags, with none of the muzzle blast and racket. They wanted a bigger, heavier bullet than the .38 to give better penetration and a bigger wound.
Keep in mind that in the early 1960's, when this happened, handgun bullets that expanded reliably on people-size targets were practically unknown.
The handgun they wanted was also not what they got. What was proposed was a new frame size, between the K and N frames, to keep grip size and trigger reach and gun weight manageable. I believe the current L frame was the size of revolver they had in mind.
Skelton said that they were somewhat naive about the handgun industry's, particularly S&W who dominated the police gun market, ability and willingness to develop, manufacture and sell a brand new frame that depended on a brand new cartridge.
S&W obviously didn't see the police market there to justify the massive (at the time) financial investment. So, they utilized an exisiting gun (the Model 29, basically) and decided to offer a true 'magnum' loading to broaden the potential appeal of the new gun to sportsmen as a hunting arm.
Without the heavy .41 Mag hunting loading and a lead bullet load 100 fps slower, the M-58 could have been made with a shorter, lighter cylinder and a slender .38-44 profile barrel, while the M-57 could have had the tapered 1950 Target barrel. The guns could have weighed in very managably, then. It may have then been the best cop holster gun and ammo combination available at the time, and the designation of ".41 Special" would have helped in the politically squeemish climate of the time.
I agree, new more suited cartridge loadings for existing rounds would have been as good or better than what happened, and cheaper and easier to boot, as an alternative to the new .41 Magnum. Skelton wanted a commercial loading of his .44 Special, a 250 grain SWC at about 900 fps, or the regular manufacture of double action revolvers chambered in .45 Colt. Handloaders and gun buffs could make their own, but law enforcement needs to be able to buy suitable commercially manufactured ammunition.
I think it was a case of S&W marketing types missing the boat.
As for why keep the .44 Special, if you don't understand, we can't tell you!
Skeeter Skelton discussed it several times. What he and his cohorts proposed was their vision of the ideal law enforcement gun and cartridge, a .40-.41 caliber cartridge with a 200-ish grain bullet at about .38 Special velocities (850 fps). It would be easy to handle compared to the .357 and .44 Mags, with none of the muzzle blast and racket. They wanted a bigger, heavier bullet than the .38 to give better penetration and a bigger wound.
Keep in mind that in the early 1960's, when this happened, handgun bullets that expanded reliably on people-size targets were practically unknown.
The handgun they wanted was also not what they got. What was proposed was a new frame size, between the K and N frames, to keep grip size and trigger reach and gun weight manageable. I believe the current L frame was the size of revolver they had in mind.
Skelton said that they were somewhat naive about the handgun industry's, particularly S&W who dominated the police gun market, ability and willingness to develop, manufacture and sell a brand new frame that depended on a brand new cartridge.
S&W obviously didn't see the police market there to justify the massive (at the time) financial investment. So, they utilized an exisiting gun (the Model 29, basically) and decided to offer a true 'magnum' loading to broaden the potential appeal of the new gun to sportsmen as a hunting arm.
Without the heavy .41 Mag hunting loading and a lead bullet load 100 fps slower, the M-58 could have been made with a shorter, lighter cylinder and a slender .38-44 profile barrel, while the M-57 could have had the tapered 1950 Target barrel. The guns could have weighed in very managably, then. It may have then been the best cop holster gun and ammo combination available at the time, and the designation of ".41 Special" would have helped in the politically squeemish climate of the time.
I agree, new more suited cartridge loadings for existing rounds would have been as good or better than what happened, and cheaper and easier to boot, as an alternative to the new .41 Magnum. Skelton wanted a commercial loading of his .44 Special, a 250 grain SWC at about 900 fps, or the regular manufacture of double action revolvers chambered in .45 Colt. Handloaders and gun buffs could make their own, but law enforcement needs to be able to buy suitable commercially manufactured ammunition.
I think it was a case of S&W marketing types missing the boat.
As for why keep the .44 Special, if you don't understand, we can't tell you!
Without trying to turn this into a 41 vs 44 kind of discussion, I must say, the 41 mag is my sentimental favorite cartridge. I bought one when my wife and I first got married. I have since traded it and a few others off, only to come back to it again. I also have had numerous 44's over the years. Personally, I think the 41 is the perfect fit for the n frame flatform. This is not to say that 44's don't work well in them, they do. The 41 just seems just right for it. I now have a 657-3 41 with a 6" barrel, and I like it a lot. wyatte
Calaveras Slim
US Veteran
Of all the various calibers available, the 44 special is my favorite. I totally hate the 44 mag but feels that it has it's place. I do own a Ruger SBH, but have sold all the M29 I have ever owned. I just have no use for them.
I have 2 Colt SAAs in 45 and several in 44. But I also have a 625 in the same caliber. I shoot and carry both on occasion. Have a M22, a M21, a M57. samo, samo.
My normal carry gun is??????????? suprise, a 44 special.
See I don't think anyone needs a 44mag.
But it is like the feller sez, everyone has one and most of them stink
I have 2 Colt SAAs in 45 and several in 44. But I also have a 625 in the same caliber. I shoot and carry both on occasion. Have a M22, a M21, a M57. samo, samo.
My normal carry gun is??????????? suprise, a 44 special.
See I don't think anyone needs a 44mag.
But it is like the feller sez, everyone has one and most of them stink
clockman999
Member
shooting .44 specials in a .44 mag
I understand that it is not advisable to shoot .44 special cartridges in a .44 magnum as it can cause leading in the cylinder and throat due to the shorter cartridge length. Similarly, to load .44 magnum cartridges with .44 special loads leaves a lot of empty space in the cartridge. Anyway, I am a happy .44 special shooter with a 624.
I understand that it is not advisable to shoot .44 special cartridges in a .44 magnum as it can cause leading in the cylinder and throat due to the shorter cartridge length. Similarly, to load .44 magnum cartridges with .44 special loads leaves a lot of empty space in the cartridge. Anyway, I am a happy .44 special shooter with a 624.
Other than the ability to carry a lighter gun, some people choose the .44 Special because of the data below, courtesy of Chuck Hawks:
Caliber (Bullet Weight / Velocity)
.44 Spec. (240 at 750) ----- 4.5 Ft. lbs. Recoil Energy
.44 Mag. (240 at 1450)----- 22.5 Ft. lbs. Recoil Energy
Caliber (Bullet Weight / Velocity)
.44 Spec. (240 at 750) ----- 4.5 Ft. lbs. Recoil Energy
.44 Mag. (240 at 1450)----- 22.5 Ft. lbs. Recoil Energy
Yeah, that is what this one is all about, but in the spirit of collegiality with fellow stirers-of-the-pot, I add my .02 in defense of both the 1950 Target .44 Special (with it's beautiful, properly tapered barrel) and Model 57 .41 Magnum (one of the nicest, if not actually the nicest shooting machine S&W has ever built).
Anyone who would not like an S&W .44 Special would probably sell his own mother for thirty sausages! And anyone who berates the Model 57, well...
(BTW, .45 ACP cartridges are properly fired in a 1911.
)
Yeah, that is what this one is all about, but in the spirit of collegiality with fellow stirers-of-the-pot, I add my .02 in defense of both the 1950 Target .44 Special (with it's beautiful, properly tapered barrel) and Model 57 .41 Magnum (one of the nicest, if not actually the nicest shooting machine S&W has ever built).
Anyone who would not like an S&W .44 Special would probably sell his own mother for thirty sausages! And anyone who berates the Model 57, well...
(BTW, .45 ACP cartridges are properly fired in a 1911.
hahahahahahaha............,You guys are killin' me.........And AMEN to the .45 ACP comment----All face South, bow, and praise John Moses Browning!!!!
batmann
Member
First in regards to the .44 Spl. Ruger had much the same view for years. Why produce a .44 Spl on a magnum frame. When they introded their mid size frame Blackhawk in 2005 in .357, the next logical step was a .44 Spl, which they brought out this year. NOW the cartridge makes sense, so much, I bought one. Much more packable version than a Super Blackhawk as it is very close to the Colt SA in size.
Second, the .41 Magnum. If it is such a great round, why does it have so much trouble selling? IMHO, the .44M offers much more and while the .41M has a following, it is more cult like than any .44M group I have ever seen.
Second, the .41 Magnum. If it is such a great round, why does it have so much trouble selling? IMHO, the .44M offers much more and while the .41M has a following, it is more cult like than any .44M group I have ever seen.
m657
Member
There are two groups in the gun world: those who want more 41 mags, and those who don't.....yet.....
Those who want more generally don't care what the rest have to say about their favored round.
The concept of personal choice is not difficult to explain. Choice of caliber is analogous to the "mustard or catsup/ketchup on your hot dog" threads that so-often mesmerizes so many.
And that is what marketing is all about.
Those who want more generally don't care what the rest have to say about their favored round.
The concept of personal choice is not difficult to explain. Choice of caliber is analogous to the "mustard or catsup/ketchup on your hot dog" threads that so-often mesmerizes so many.
And that is what marketing is all about.
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better question would seem to be...if the 41 mag.is such a poor seller (as you mentioned) why has S&W been producing and selling them for over 45 years?
shdwlkr
US Veteran
Well if the 44 special was a waste of time then I want all the dollars that smith and wesson made of that caliber.
As to the 44 mag I just don't like it and that is why I don't own one.
I have thought about the 41 mag but just can't figure out what I need it for so most likely will never get one but a 41 special might be interesting.
What must be remembered is there isn't a firearm made that wasn't done so with the idea of making money on said firearm. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. No one makes a given caliber firearm for decades unless the public is willing to buy it and it makes the company money. The company doesn't care what anyone says as long as sales are there to justify the production of a given firearm.
As to the 44 mag I just don't like it and that is why I don't own one.
I have thought about the 41 mag but just can't figure out what I need it for so most likely will never get one but a 41 special might be interesting.
What must be remembered is there isn't a firearm made that wasn't done so with the idea of making money on said firearm. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. No one makes a given caliber firearm for decades unless the public is willing to buy it and it makes the company money. The company doesn't care what anyone says as long as sales are there to justify the production of a given firearm.
I thank everybody for their replies.
And I am also thankful that nobody called for my Tar and Feathering, or worse a Lynching...
I do know that 41 Mag, and 44 Special "users" are very dedicated to their choices.
One of my old time shooting buddies posts here and has been using the 41 Mag since at least the early 1980's..
I tease him all the time... PS he was using the 38 Super "before it was cool"... WAY before the IPSC Champions "discovered it"...
So he ain't totally crazy...
If you analyse all the posts that talk about different loads, there is a common denomonator... A bullet from 200 to 250 grains, depending on calibre, and a velocity from @800 to 900fps for "general purposes", and these same bullets from 900 to 1100 for "serious" purposes...
Either a Lead bullet or a Jacketed HP depending on the purpose in mind.
In truth with the exception of the top Magnum loads in the 41 Mag, and the 44 Mag, the 41 Mag, 44 Special, 44 Mag, 45 ACP/Auto Rim, 45 Colt are all capable of the same thing.
Light accurate loads for target shooting/plinking/practice, medium power loads for urban self defence, and higher powered loads for field use in most circumstances.
Even in BIG bear country, I know a @220/250gr bullet at even 1000fps will penetrate the skull...
So "when" I become President of S&W, I will not stop making your favorites...
I will eleminate the LOCK..., and return some quality control, even if the guns do have to cost $25.00 more...
However for me, the only N frames I "need" are 44 Mags and 45 ACP's.
I will confess... I have thought about getting one of those "44 Special Bodyguards"...
And I am also thankful that nobody called for my Tar and Feathering, or worse a Lynching...
I do know that 41 Mag, and 44 Special "users" are very dedicated to their choices.
One of my old time shooting buddies posts here and has been using the 41 Mag since at least the early 1980's..
I tease him all the time... PS he was using the 38 Super "before it was cool"... WAY before the IPSC Champions "discovered it"...
So he ain't totally crazy...
If you analyse all the posts that talk about different loads, there is a common denomonator... A bullet from 200 to 250 grains, depending on calibre, and a velocity from @800 to 900fps for "general purposes", and these same bullets from 900 to 1100 for "serious" purposes...
Either a Lead bullet or a Jacketed HP depending on the purpose in mind.
In truth with the exception of the top Magnum loads in the 41 Mag, and the 44 Mag, the 41 Mag, 44 Special, 44 Mag, 45 ACP/Auto Rim, 45 Colt are all capable of the same thing.
Light accurate loads for target shooting/plinking/practice, medium power loads for urban self defence, and higher powered loads for field use in most circumstances.
Even in BIG bear country, I know a @220/250gr bullet at even 1000fps will penetrate the skull...
So "when" I become President of S&W, I will not stop making your favorites...
I will eleminate the LOCK..., and return some quality control, even if the guns do have to cost $25.00 more...
However for me, the only N frames I "need" are 44 Mags and 45 ACP's.
I will confess... I have thought about getting one of those "44 Special Bodyguards"...
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Good luck with that! You can't pay people enough money to make them give a care. It takes enough good men on the job to get the message through to the others that slipshod nonsense is not going to be tolerated: "It makes us all look bad, so you can straighten up - or go elsewhere!"
That is hard to arrange. I think it always has been. Now, it is even harder. Everyone has so many "rights," you know.
Allen-frame
Member
Late to the party ,,as usual.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
44 special 'Bodyguard'
Regards , Allen-44-Frame
A picture is worth a thousand words.
44 special 'Bodyguard'
Regards , Allen-44-Frame
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Darreld Walton
Member
Geeze...
If it goes bang, I like it. They're all good.......
If it goes bang, I like it. They're all good.......
I'll chime in and agree with the above...
