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To me, it's anything with adjustable sights and a 6" or longer barrel.
So..
No
Maybe
Maybe
We all know a M10 is not a target gun…But
- Thread starter SS336
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To me, it's anything with adjustable sights and a 6" or longer barrel.
So..
No
Maybe
Maybe
My first service revolver was a Model 10-5. Bright shiny deep blue with gorgeous walnut stocks. I was in love instantly. I still have that revolver, although it isn't as shiny and the stocks are worn with a few nicks and scratches, but then so do I. I fall in love again each time I take it on a range date.
StakeOut
US Veteran
So my 5" 625-2 would not qualify to be called a Target Gun?
Most folks definition would include adjustable sights. That's about the only difference in a Model 15 and a heavy barrel Model 10.
Years ago I shot squirrels with mine(just like yours) with a light charge pushing a 150 gr cast semi wadcutter. Didn't tear them up any worse than a .22 LR.
Any gun can be a "target gun" has nothing to do with the type of sights. It has everything to do with the guns accuracy, and the shooters ability to wring out every bit of said accuracy.
This is a quote from Doug Wesson, published in his book, "Burning Powder".
"It might be well to say at this point that the same barrels, cylinders, chambering, rifling and reaming that are used in our target arms are found in our service arms, and the accuracy of the two types of arms is identical".
The chapter is "Hand-Arm Accuracy".
Keep in mind, Doug Wesson is speaking of mechanical accuracy, as you find when shooting from a bench or machine rest. Intrinsic shootability is a different (and subjective) matter.
With that being said, once you start shooting matches at regulation distances with regulation targets, the necessity of target sights is readily apparent. (I'm talking about real Bullseye match shooting.) You need to have your groups centered on the target for your preferred sight picture/hold.
If you're shooting outdoor Bullseye, where the slowfire part is done at 50 yds, you also have to contend with changing light and sometimes wind. I have personally experienced a shift in groups just from having light conditions change on the target. Similarly, if you are not under cover, the sun will change your perception of the front sight if it is rounded or even a Baughmann profile. This is where a Patridge or undercut King front sight pays dividends in your match scores.
Also, you have to think about the trigger and hammer style on your revolver. For the timed and rapid fire stages, you have to cock the hammer with your shooting hand thumb, all while trying to recover your sights back on target during each five shot string. The target hammer is designed to make that a bit easier. Something like the King "Cockeyed" hammer takes the concept even further. (This is worth using the forum "search" function if you are unfamiliar with King target revolver conversions.)
Wide, grooved target triggers are intended to spread the pressure needed to release a single action aimed shot across the pad of your index finger, thus giving a sense of less trigger weight. Once the trigger releases, the grooved trigger and a properly fitted trigger stop helps maintain good follow-through. This is essential for avoiding "pulled" shots to the right or left.
Anyhow, that's the idea behind how S&W set up their target revolvers.
"It might be well to say at this point that the same barrels, cylinders, chambering, rifling and reaming that are used in our target arms are found in our service arms, and the accuracy of the two types of arms is identical".
The chapter is "Hand-Arm Accuracy".
Keep in mind, Doug Wesson is speaking of mechanical accuracy, as you find when shooting from a bench or machine rest. Intrinsic shootability is a different (and subjective) matter.
With that being said, once you start shooting matches at regulation distances with regulation targets, the necessity of target sights is readily apparent. (I'm talking about real Bullseye match shooting.) You need to have your groups centered on the target for your preferred sight picture/hold.
If you're shooting outdoor Bullseye, where the slowfire part is done at 50 yds, you also have to contend with changing light and sometimes wind. I have personally experienced a shift in groups just from having light conditions change on the target. Similarly, if you are not under cover, the sun will change your perception of the front sight if it is rounded or even a Baughmann profile. This is where a Patridge or undercut King front sight pays dividends in your match scores.
Also, you have to think about the trigger and hammer style on your revolver. For the timed and rapid fire stages, you have to cock the hammer with your shooting hand thumb, all while trying to recover your sights back on target during each five shot string. The target hammer is designed to make that a bit easier. Something like the King "Cockeyed" hammer takes the concept even further. (This is worth using the forum "search" function if you are unfamiliar with King target revolver conversions.)
Wide, grooved target triggers are intended to spread the pressure needed to release a single action aimed shot across the pad of your index finger, thus giving a sense of less trigger weight. Once the trigger releases, the grooved trigger and a properly fitted trigger stop helps maintain good follow-through. This is essential for avoiding "pulled" shots to the right or left.
Anyhow, that's the idea behind how S&W set up their target revolvers.
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At a point in time, S&W deemed revolvers with adjustable sights to be "target guns". This point in time was the mid 1920's---can't say when it started----can't say when it stopped (if it stopped). The perhaps most obvious difference besides the sights was (S.A.) trigger pull---3-4 lbs. for target guns, 5-7 lbs. for fixed sight guns. They didn't come right out and say their fixed sight guns were getting a bad rap, but they did make a BIG point the adjustable sight guns were different---but not necessarily better. Some of their lingo: "Exactly the same difference exists between a hunting rifle and one made especially for target shooting, they are of equal quality but each is best for the kind of work it is designed to do." That said, on May 1, 1929, the order to "Change pull on all H.E. to 3 1/2-5 1/2 lbs. per V.E. Wesson." came along. That's when the order was issued. As an aside, I checked the S.A. pull on the 14 M&P Targets hailing from 1910 to 1936 in my collection of S&W target guns, and each of them was 3 1/2 lbs. During the period they were openly treating target guns to different but not better treatment, that went like this: "For these reasons a special type of trigger pull is desirable-----not by any means simply a very light pull, but one having the peculiar quality termed "short and crisp" by shooters. This not only requires a special type of notch and trigger point, but requires a different adjustment of the working parts of the action."
The quotations herein are from the S&W catalog circa 1925. The bottom line of all this is there was a time when there were considerable differences between fixed sight and target guns. As it stands now, and without considerably more investigation and research, we can say when some of that time was-------but not when it wasn't.
Ralph Tremaine
The quotations herein are from the S&W catalog circa 1925. The bottom line of all this is there was a time when there were considerable differences between fixed sight and target guns. As it stands now, and without considerably more investigation and research, we can say when some of that time was-------but not when it wasn't.
Ralph Tremaine
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I'll disagree. While it's possible to wring equal results out of a service revolver and a target gun, it's not easy. Look to those that shoot organized target events such as NRA Bullseye/Precision Pistol or any of the International/Olympic disciplines. You won't see any fixed-sight, short barreled, guns on the line. Not one.
You are absolutely correct!
For proof, compare the guns allowed, and the resultant scores, under NRA Bullseye rules and CMP Service pistol rules. The course of fire is very similar. However, under NRA rules guns can have optical sights, orthopedic grips, very light trigger jobs, etc. The CMP rules are very restricted. Sights must be "as issued" iron sights. No external modifications are allowed, etc.
CMP publishes a list of allowed pistols for their service pistol matches. Some are more akin to a "target" pistols, others not so much. In keeping with the topic of this thread, the S&W model 10 is allowed. So is the model 15, with it's adjustable sights. Lots of guys choose the 15. I've never heard of anyone choosing the 10, despite it's accuracy and other attributes.
Up until a couple decades ago, there was a Service Pistol match held in the UK in which the rules stated the only allowed guns were unmodified, as-issued bonafide service arms made on or before Armistice Day, Nov. 11, 1918. It was a difficult match, one hand firing using the ISU precision pistol target at 25 meters.
In this particular case, yes, a period-correct, fixed sight revolver as made by S&W or Colt made a fine "target" pistol.
But, going back to the OP, he does make a good point. The S&W 10, and other 38 service revolvers such as the Colt Official Police are very accurate, with close tolerances and excellent build quality. They're a pleasure to own and enjoyable to shoot.
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The simplest way to look at this is that "target" guns fit a loose description. 6" barrel, adjustable sights etc……. No different than the loose definition of what qualifies as an "Assault Rifle" or a Race Car.
Although the term assault rifles bothers me. By their intended purpose all rifles (guns ) are assault weapons.
Although the term assault rifles bothers me. By their intended purpose all rifles (guns ) are assault weapons.
This is a very uninformed statement. Have you shot any of these matches?
Look up the rules for any of the aforementioned matches. They're all available online.
There is nothing "loose" about the criteria for allowable guns under specific match rules. It is all very specific to a very fine level of detail.
And, the notion that all guns are "assault" weapons is ludicrous.
Ask anyone who lives in a country where firearm ownership is strictly regulated.
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Excuse me MR six string. I wasn't referring to match guns. I was referring to guns designed towards target shooting and greater accuracy with ability to adjust point of impact. As opposed to guns designed for self defense. Example mod 14 vs mod 10 etc……. That seemed to be the question many posed.
Also the firearm in and of itself is made to kill. If that's not an assault weapon I don't know what is. My point was the hypocrisy of defining one gun as an assault weapon because of certain features. I'm sorry 6string if these concepts are to deep for u to understand
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Where the myth came from that fixed sight guns are any less accurate than adjustable sight guns is beyond me! Think about it - fixed sight guns are not movable at all - adjustable sights can get banged around, moved by accident, break etc. The ONLY thing adjustable sight guns are better at is adjusting for the individual shooter's eyes and for ammunition type and lot differences.
I have my standard pet loads for target shooting and when I dial in the sights on an adj. sight gun, they really never get moved unless I change bullet types, load, powder, or bang them. That is a rare occurrence but does on occasion.
I have my standard pet loads for target shooting and when I dial in the sights on an adj. sight gun, they really never get moved unless I change bullet types, load, powder, or bang them. That is a rare occurrence but does on occasion.
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This is so sad!
Better to not know something and keep quiet than open your mouth and prove it.
By the way, the model 14 was explicitly designed as a "match" gun, in this case the CF stage of the 2700 Bullseye match.
This is so sad!
Better to not know something and keep quiet than open your mouth and prove it.
By the way, the model 14 was explicitly designed as a "match" gun, in this case the CF stage of the 2700 Bullseye match.
Well it's clear u know everything. The problem is we're not talking about the same thing. But in your haste to prove your incredible wisdom u don't seem to realize this. ……. So I'll just leave it there and not respond further.
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