Weaver vs Isoceles

[Kanewpadle]

You and the other poster seem to be reading things in my posts that simply aren't there, and in his case, missing some things that are. I own more revolvers than pistols and shoot them a lot more. But that doesn't change the fact younger shooters absolutely hate the revolver and laugh at older shooters like me who still prefer them. I also still use the Weaver method every day, but it's dying out. Your statement about S&Ws best selling REVOLVER is neither here nor there. How do revolvers compare to pistols in sales numbers? That would be more to the point. I'm guessing there are still enough older shooters who like revolvers that sales aren't that bad. But I'm also guessing (because I never checked into it, after all, I really don't care) that pistols are on the rise and revolvers are losing interest and sales. You can buy two plastic pistols for what one Smith revolver costs. To a young shooter price is going to matter a lot. Then there's capacity and weight.

As far as what I know, you don't have to be a pro shooter to see what's been going on in recent decades and the changes that have come to the shooting world, especially in law enforcement and training, not to mention competition. I certainly never earned my living as a competitor, but I've been shooting since 1961. I reread my posts and cannot find where I claimed to be an expert or know any more than anyone else. This stuff gets boring fast and it's why I don't post much on these forums.

Wrong. I simply pointed out what YOU put in writing. Nothing more. Like I said, blanket statements don't work if they are simply your opinion. Since you don't seem to understand that, we'll just call it good and move on.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Problem with the Isoceles stance is that it leaves your testeclese vulnerable to that nasty crotch double tap spoke of earlier.

 

[Whitwabit]

I expect that during a self defense situation my size 8 sneakers are going to be beat feeting as fast as possible to get behind cover out of the line of fire .. so my feet placement in those first shots will in no way resemble either the Weaver or Isosceles Stances ..

I may well be lying on my back if I am rushed by someone with a knife or other weapon and my only avenue to avoid being stabbed or clubbed is to fall on to my back as I draw and fire to get space between me and an attacker !!

Though I do practice both or variations of them ..

I am of the mind that it really doesn't matter where your feet are other then they are behind cover and not in the line of fire or in the way to trip on them as your moving ..

As long as you are able to shoot the object you are shooting at as you are moving ..

 

[Darkenfast]

I wear bifocals. The most likely stance I'm going to use in a hurry or under stress is the old FBI one-handed draw, point and pull, as seen on that old training film from the fifties and now on Youtube. As long as I can see the slide peripherally, my horizontal dispersion is quite good at close ranges and my vertical isn't bad. Only if I have time to hunt for the front sight in the lower left lens of my glasses will I then use a modified Weaver, because it's very natural for me.

 

[indigo22]

Did some competitive shooting a while back. Learned the Weaver method and have stuck with it as to me it seems the most stable. I taught this method to my wife and four kids all of them took to it easily.

 

[WR Moore]

Some folks here have been rightly criticized for being too rigid.

The gent who mentioned an article about stress has a great point. Decades ago OPOTA (Ohio Peace Officers Training Academy) taught only Weaver. They had/have a very elaborate shoot house and the students were video taped when the ran it. Someone did a study after thousands of students and discovered that despite being trained exclusively Weaver/2 hand, when under stress the students fired isosceles over 4 yards and one handed under 4 yards. After the study, they changed their training to reflect reality.

The tendency under stress is to square off to the target and slightly crouch to improve mobility. This is way many have gone to a modified version of isosceles in training. Yes, the armpit is a very weak spot even if wearing armor. This has also driven departments to move away from Weaver-unless you have cover. Feet can be staggered for better support and arms can be flexed for better recoil control and/or to accommodate rigid armor.

I will agree that classic isosceles (feet squared, body rigidly erect over feet, arms fully extended) is a lousy shooting stance with virtually anything.

 

[Rastoff]

I think Jack Weaver would find this discussion funny. He didn't use that stance because it was the best, he used it because it was what worked for him. He won a bunch of shooting matches. As is common, people thought that if they copied him, they would shoot as well as he did.

The truth is, not everything works the same for everybody. Find what works for you and practice it a lot.

 

[powrguy]

Stance ?

Hate to sound stupid and do not want to offend but I just learned to shoot off hand by doing it. I have tried to study the various stances and find my body likes the way I have been shooting. Daily practice one hand, right and left, both hands, at varied distances from 50 to over 100 yards, off hand thumb over my shooting hand supporting my wrist.

Shoot standing, sitting, prone - what ever I feel like.

I honestly do not remember the different textbook stances.

I tried textbook stances, but found I can shoot best with a comfortable position(s) I went to starting with a modified "textbook stance" as a baseline. The other miracle with shooting for me was when I discovered to "focus on the front sight". I'm too old for "run and gun" events, or "tactical scenarios", and just want to put rounds on target where I'm aiming.

 

[RSanch111]

Isosceles. That's the way I was trained and that's the way I shoot best. Weaver came along after I'd been on the job for a while and was suddenly the new "thing". Then I went to another combat shooting class where the instructor was again pushing isosceles. He said the research showed that in a stressful shooting situation, people tend to "square up" to the threat and face it head-on, which would dovetail into a isosceles stance. Also, it stands to reason that as a cop, in a Weaver stance, you're presenting more of your unprotected side to the bad guy if you're wearing a vest.

We also learned a nifty way to combat reload an 870 in that class that I still used today. Used to be, we were instructed to hold the shotgun in our right hand, in firing position, still facing the threat, cup a fresh round in the left hand, go under the receiver and dump it into the chamber.

New method was to hold the shotgun sideways with the open chamber facing up, hold a round in your left hand, palm down, slap the round into the chamber, and in the same motion, shotgun still sideways, close the action and then return to "regular" firing position or a low ready and load 4 more in the magazine. If you fumble the round a little, you're more likely to still get it into the chamber this way than the old way, where it's more likely to wind up on the ground.

 

[Protected One]

Isosceles. That's the way I was trained and that's the way I shoot best. Weaver came along after I'd been on the job for a while and was suddenly the new "thing". Then I went to another combat shooting class where the instructor was again pushing isosceles. He said the research showed that in a stressful shooting situation, people tend to "square up" to the threat and face it head-on, which would dovetail into a isosceles stance. Also, it stands to reason that as a cop, in a Weaver stance, you're presenting more of your unprotected side to the bad guy if you're wearing a vest.

We also learned a nifty way to combat reload an 870 in that class that I still used today. Used to be, we were instructed to hold the shotgun in our right hand, in firing position, still facing the threat, cup a fresh round in the left hand, go under the receiver and dump it into the chamber.

New method was to hold the shotgun sideways with the open chamber facing up, hold a round in your left hand, palm down, slap the round into the chamber, and in the same motion, shotgun still sideways, close the action and then return to "regular" firing position or a low ready and load 4 more in the magazine. If you fumble the round a little, you're more likely to still get it into the chamber this way than the old way, where it's more likely to wind up on the ground.

I will have to give that a try. Thanks for sharing!

 

[RSanch111]

I will have to give that a try. Thanks for sharing!

No prob. The beneficial part is to get the round in and action closed in one fluid and fast motion. Also, if you have to fire that single round in the chamber as soon as you get the action closed, to have your left hand grip firmly over the barrel/foregrip, palm down, so you don't lose control of the shotgun. That's always fun!

 

[RSanch111]

One thing I noticed a lot of shooters doing when I was a firearms instructor was this: Not only do they get hunched over too much, but they unconsciously bring their heads/eyes down to the gun instead of bringing the gun up to their eye level. Almost as if they were using their gun for "cover or concealment"! I notice myself doing the same thing sometimes and consciously try to remember, in my isoceles stance, to stand up reasonably straight and bring the sights up to my eyes instead of bringing my head down to the sights. Especially when "shooting for score" instead of just putting some rounds on target in a hurry. When shooting for score, like in qualification, the range officers would say: "You have plenty of time, use all your time." When "training", as opposed to trying to win a bet with my buddy, I would generally have all of my rounds on target, albeit not in a pretty little group, in less than half the time.

 

[Fastbolt]

I'll use Weaver, Chapman, Isoceles, or some "stance" or flow of martial arts positioning and balance, depending on the situation and circumstances involved.

I don't limit myself to always using the same single, static posture or stance for my martial arts practice, and I don't intentionally limit my options when using a handgun or long gun, either.

I like to think of my options regarding shooting techniques (including "stances") as tactical options, if necessary.

 

[SWIll]

When at the range I use an isosceles stance. I figure if I ever have to use my gun to defend myself, all stances go out the window, though


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[Whitwabit]

Much depends on the goal.

No offense to all the Miculek fans out there, as I think he's great, but as talented and phenomenal as Jerry Miculek happens to be at what he does, it should not be overlooked that he is a competitive shooter and has developed skills specifically geared toward excelling at that particular sport.

I've never seen him address the type of skills and techniques you would likely need in the most probable defense encounters, considering the vast majority of all civilian self-defense scenarios occur at contact distances out to a few yards(if you believe the published statistics are correct). The type of sport shooting skills I've seen him demonstrate, while no doubt are extremely impressive, just aren't all that applicable in actual defense situations. There is still an elemental degree of crossover in certain circumstances, it's just not very substantial IMO. That's not to say he doesn't have other skills or knowledge, I've just never seen him discuss them in depth or demonstrate them. If the goal is to exhibit proficiency at sport shooting skills or be successful as a competitor, it would be logical to look to the best competitive shooters for tips and guidance, but defensive shooting in realistic conditions requires different methods.

Context is everything and your training methods, preferred shooting posture, stance, grip etc. should be specifically suited for whatever your goal is and for you as an individual. There is no one right answer for every person and every category.

He is the one person that I think could out shoot someone who is holding a gun on him and win .. I wouldn't bet against him !!

You must not have watched many different video of him shooting .. not just his many records where he is the fast person with a pistol .. and a revolver at that !!

 

[Devildogcpl]

Modified Weaver

I shoot modified weaver. It is natural with good forward/backward and lateral movement. Shooting and moving in the modified weaver privides the most stable shooting platform.

 

[Protected One]

He is the one person that I think could out shoot someone who is holding a gun on him and win .. I wouldn't bet against him !!

You must not have watched many different video of him shooting .. not just his many records where he is the fast person with a pistol .. and a revolver at that !!

Nobody has a gun pointed at him when he's doing that shooting.
That changes everything!
Jerry is the best at what he does, but what he does is not "defensive shooting".

 

[Mister X]

He is the one person that I think could out shoot someone who is holding a gun on him and win .. I wouldn't bet against him !!

You must not have watched many different video of him shooting .. not just his many records where he is the fast person with a pistol .. and a revolver at that !!

Because unavoidable gunfights at distance are relatively uncommon in the context of cases of civilian self-defense, most sport-shooting and traditional range skills are not often applicable or of much advantage. And in the rare event that it does occur, I would still assert that the dynamic between sport and actual defensive shooting is still very different.

And it isn't always(if not usually) gun vs gun, but rather gun vs knife, vs bludgeon, vs physical assault by one or more unarmed assailants. In that context, an integrated approach is key and it is usually advantageous for there to be as much commonality and compatibility between skill-sets(and postures/stances) as possible.

An analogy from Rob Pincus...

"Fighting is not a sport.. that is kinda the point...

Shooting can be a Sport... but defensive shooting during a dynamic critical incident?? No.

For my students, I use the analogy of an Indy racer Vs. car owner in a big city.... The urbanite MUST develop the skill to parallel park if he wants to own and operate a car in the city.. The indy driver doesn't need to have EVER done that, but must have other skills developed to a high degree (shifting, cornering at high speeds, etc)... They both use the same tool (a car), but they are doing very different things.

I hope that makes sense... too many people confuse mechanical target shooting skills with defensive skills.

What you "can" do in a controlled environment like a range might have very little to do with what you NEED to do during a dynamic critical incident.

It's not the degree of skill... its the skill itself. The Indy driver is NOT more skilled than the urbanite when it comes to Parellel Parking, just because he can corner at 180... two different things."

 

[sigp220.45]

I shoot in a Weaver stance at qualifications, and I can attest that all the youngsters shoot from an Isosceles. They also do odd and mysterious things like pointing their pistols from side to side then bringing the gun to the center of the chest and oh so slowly reholstering.

When we do one handed shooting, they hold their other arm across their chest, fist clenched. I get it - it must be better to get shot though the arm and chest than just the chest alone. But if I could hold my arm there, I'd just go ahead and use it.

I've also heard the "side not covered by the vest" argument against the Weaver. Two things - if your side is facing forward, you aren't doing it right, and I've been issued at least 8 vests over the years and all of them overlapped at the sides. Some really fat guys had gaps, but they just needed bigger vests or smaller meals.

Times change, and I'm fine with that. I'll be out of the game soon. I think the Weaver will die away, then years from now someone will rename and reintroduce it as the newest thing.

 

[eb07]

I shoot more of a combat or fighting stance: https://www.policeone.com/police-pr...-3-shooting-stances-Which-ones-right-for-you/

It is just what I learned lately and am comfortable with. I am always open to new developments and improvements