Is there anyone who will authenticate a Wells Fargo stamped 1st Model Schofield. Plenty of posts out there but at the end of the day it would be good to have the example that has come into my possession to get a thorough review by an expert. Any contact info appreciated if available.
Wells Fargo Schofield - Authentication
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mmaher94087
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Post a few photos and maybe we can help. I'd recommend Model 3 on this forum.
I would think such a gun would have already been lettered if not approach with skepticism, especially given what one such as this might cost.
Post some clearly focused photos here and send me an EMAIL from the connection link in this forum. Sal Raimondi, Sr. AKA MODEL3SW
I've attached pictures. Have not taken delivery yet but when I do I can post better ones. Understand comment regards letter. I think it's a pretty sure bet the 1st Model Schofield is correct. I am taking the gun from someone I trust and at least this person believes it's authentic. All serial number (2438) and correct inspector marks for 1st Model in right places. I have yet to inspect rear barrel, catch and catch screw which I will when gun arrives. US on the toe of butt. Grips are numbered to gun. Gang stamp of WF & COS EX is in straight line with W and F being marked up into the Schofield patent so a bit hard to see. With all of that my interest is validity of Wells Fargo story and I don't think a letter will help with that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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The museum where I work as a volunteer firearms historian has a similar Schofield that was validated as a Wells Fargo issue based on pictures I posted on this forum. I think you will get valuable input here. I agree a letter will not confirm that it's a Wells Fargo gun although it may provide other good information.
I'd need to see this one, in hand and partially dismantle. I'm not getting all warm and fuzzy about the WF and Cos stamp being so dead on top of the S&W roll marks. While many are a tad off and most a bit slanted, I've never encountered one this bad ... meaning so dead on top of the S&W stamp. I am NOT stating it is a fake nor an authentic WF. Don't have enough data yet. I'd have to check internal parts.
While John Hall was an impeccable collector, he's gone over 20 years. I cannot imagine he'd pass up purchasing one with a bad stamp if he paid a lesser price for it. Even the bad stamped and fake WF marks Schofileds have a value, too. Just not anything near the value of the authentic Wells Fargo.
If it comes down to it, Ed Cornett can offer some valuable input from his records of 80+ yeasr but he's retired and donated his records. Then Col. Chas. Pate (US Army retired and noted author) has more records of Model 3s in all variations inspected than any other collector, ever.
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None of the WF&Co guns letter, they were purchased by Wells Fargo as used guns.
I'll try to get you a picture of mine. There are a lot of fakes. I have records of Schofields that showed up at gun shows later as WF&Co that weren't the first time. I'm sure you're aware of that.
Hopefully it is just as you think, a legitimate model because its so nice on its face, WF and all else is a big plus.
Nice grab.
Nice grab.
Richochet
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Expertise
Charles Pate is THE expert when it comes to the Wells Fargo Models. His book about the American Model is an essential reference work on the subject.
Charles Pate is THE expert when it comes to the Wells Fargo Models. His book about the American Model is an essential reference work on the subject.
Yes, that is absolutely correct. Except my SN 1080 that letters it was sent back to the factory in July 1945 to have the finish changed to nickel. At that time the barrel had already been cut to 5" and stamped with Wells Fargo. (almost exact quote on letter).
That was an outstanding and unique surprise to the letter from Roy Jinks. Wells Fargo stamped fakes didn't start to show up until the 1980s in what seemed to be a large quantity. Before 1980s a "Wells Fargo" marked Schofield was worth LESS than the non-marked 5". In the 1980s the prices evened out, then into the 1990s the Wells Fargo prices far surpassed the non-marked 5" models.
The complete edit on the Schofields and most Model 3 variations in the Blue Book of Gun Values are my edits. There sure ARE more fake Wells Fargo marked Schofields than genuine Wells Fargo guns, some of the fakes are quite impressive.
Even after inspection ... a high quality fake is tough to distinguish from a genuine. It involves opening and inspected the revolvers and years of experience wherein many genuine Wells Fargos were within certain serial number ranges, it seems. Not that an odd one can't be correct, too, those known in the 800s to 1200s SN range (appx) seem to be where the majority (but not all) of the genuine Wells Fargos are found.
Hope that adds some depth to everyone's research.
Sal Raimondi, Sr. (MODEL3SW)
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Hey Sal, your post brings up a question. Is there anyone or any company out there that authenticates vintage revolvers? I am talking about letters of provenience that are used widely in other collecting circles? Never ran across anyone offering this type of service for firearms?
It would be VERY difficult for a company to authenticate revolvers, all makes and models. There are just too many revolvers out there for any one individual to be able to authenticate and be aware of all the variations and model changes. There are individuals who authenticate a subset of certain types of revolvers. I'm sure there are others out there for specific models that I am not aware of, but they might be few and far between.
The one that comes to mind is John Kopec and his authentication service for Colt Cavalry and Artillery Model revolvers only: John A. Kopec
Interestingly in the S&W catalog the three examples of believed authentic guns have markings 1, 3420 and 5549. As Sal states there is a cluster in a set range but others are out there. If ultimate validation comes from Wells Fargo inspector marks or a list of known serial numbers it would be good to have those resources available to the S&W collector community . John Kopec is a good resource in that regard for the Colt collectors as mentioned.
Authentication equals Data plus Provenence
This is a great Historical Subject. I think that Sals gun is standing on rock solid ground with the Factory letter backing it up.
So using Sal's gun as a foundation? My data base has 47 Model 1 Schofields with the exact same barrel "Wells Fargo" stamp as Sals from Serial number 1 to Serial number 1897. See photo 1.
That's the only stamp that in my opinion is "Confirmed" Authentic.
I'm not saying others are not? I'm only saying the stamp is backed up by "Solid Evidence" and Data.
Ed (Opec) also confirmed that via a letter from Robert Chandler( Wells Fargo Historian) to Jim Supica that this barrel marking is Post August 1, 1898.
The Schofield became surplus after 1880 (after only 5 years of service?) but that's not entirely accurate. Some did but many remained in service throughout the Indian Wars and the 1898 Spanish American War. In fact there are unit records that confirm they were still in service after 1900.
So the likelihood of "Batches" being sold as Surplus over a 25 year period is not only high? It's supported historically. This position supporting the likelihood of multiple barrel Well's Fargo Stamps.... I just believe that Early Stamps (PHOTO 2 and 3) should be much scarcer than say Sal's example. But since they are the easiest to fake? That's why so many are seen.
Trying to authenticate them is going to be very difficult without more solid records.
You can see in photo 2 and 3 that the so-called line stamp is not straight. So, often collectors are suspect but for the life of me they look legit. Especially photo 2 with the worn stamp? I mean that looks real to me? but more research is needed. Both of these guns sold for near or a little more than $6,000! So somebody believed them to be legit!
One more comment on "EXPRESS" guns? It's documented that the vast majority (not all but most) were ordered by EXPRESS companies like American, US, Railway, etc......very late in the 1890's to early 1900's. Factory marked examples and orders of over 1200-1500 38 cal topbreaks as an example were not uncommon for various EXPRESS companies. I have several topbreak 38 cal Smith & Wessons of various models that letter as EXPRESS guns and are so marked. My point being that they were ordered late in the 1800's and very large orders placed! This doesn't include large orders of Colt lightnings and Iver Johnsons that are confirmed. 800-1200 units in the separate orders placed. This data just proves that "many" were ordered and are authentic via research confirmation and Factory documents. Add them up and you come up with literally thousands of "Factory Ordered" EXPRESS GUNS! That doesn't include guns ordered directly from Distributors!
So I think that there were many Wells Fargo Schofields. How many? Research in progress. What makes it extremely difficult are these quality fakes that have been out for several decades now. I actually bought a fake Wells Fargo Schofield several years ago...Why? It was $900.... So I figured, it's a Real Schofield, all matching, action perfect, clear markings....It's worth it!! I've shot it too...It's a wonderful Antique Smith!
Murph
This is a great Historical Subject. I think that Sals gun is standing on rock solid ground with the Factory letter backing it up.
So using Sal's gun as a foundation? My data base has 47 Model 1 Schofields with the exact same barrel "Wells Fargo" stamp as Sals from Serial number 1 to Serial number 1897. See photo 1.
That's the only stamp that in my opinion is "Confirmed" Authentic.
I'm not saying others are not? I'm only saying the stamp is backed up by "Solid Evidence" and Data.
Ed (Opec) also confirmed that via a letter from Robert Chandler( Wells Fargo Historian) to Jim Supica that this barrel marking is Post August 1, 1898.
The Schofield became surplus after 1880 (after only 5 years of service?) but that's not entirely accurate. Some did but many remained in service throughout the Indian Wars and the 1898 Spanish American War. In fact there are unit records that confirm they were still in service after 1900.
So the likelihood of "Batches" being sold as Surplus over a 25 year period is not only high? It's supported historically. This position supporting the likelihood of multiple barrel Well's Fargo Stamps.... I just believe that Early Stamps (PHOTO 2 and 3) should be much scarcer than say Sal's example. But since they are the easiest to fake? That's why so many are seen.
Trying to authenticate them is going to be very difficult without more solid records.
You can see in photo 2 and 3 that the so-called line stamp is not straight. So, often collectors are suspect but for the life of me they look legit. Especially photo 2 with the worn stamp? I mean that looks real to me? but more research is needed. Both of these guns sold for near or a little more than $6,000! So somebody believed them to be legit!
One more comment on "EXPRESS" guns? It's documented that the vast majority (not all but most) were ordered by EXPRESS companies like American, US, Railway, etc......very late in the 1890's to early 1900's. Factory marked examples and orders of over 1200-1500 38 cal topbreaks as an example were not uncommon for various EXPRESS companies. I have several topbreak 38 cal Smith & Wessons of various models that letter as EXPRESS guns and are so marked. My point being that they were ordered late in the 1800's and very large orders placed! This doesn't include large orders of Colt lightnings and Iver Johnsons that are confirmed. 800-1200 units in the separate orders placed. This data just proves that "many" were ordered and are authentic via research confirmation and Factory documents. Add them up and you come up with literally thousands of "Factory Ordered" EXPRESS GUNS! That doesn't include guns ordered directly from Distributors!
So I think that there were many Wells Fargo Schofields. How many? Research in progress. What makes it extremely difficult are these quality fakes that have been out for several decades now. I actually bought a fake Wells Fargo Schofield several years ago...Why? It was $900.... So I figured, it's a Real Schofield, all matching, action perfect, clear markings....It's worth it!! I've shot it too...It's a wonderful Antique Smith!
Murph
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Gary, Will answer a few questions in the parameters of this response.
Years back an appraisal or inspection letter was 90%+of the time for insurance purposes. Have I seen inflated appraisals, YES ! Usually these were written by one of the bigger selling antique dealers, e.g. Carlson, Condon. Norm Flayderman was about the most respected letter you could get ... IF he wanted to do it for you. If you purchased it from him, no charge. if not, something rather reasonable cost. For Colt Black Powder, Herb Glass, and a few others, all equally qualified, I feel but some others too, that would mean nothing to me.
On the Model 3 variations, I "believe" Roy Double was either "the" first to dive deeply into the Model 3s. He was an innovator. He was the most researched and honorable and I "think" the first collector to make a serious study of the Model 3 variations.
Col. Charles Pate (US Army Retired) is another, highly qualified expert and author, even more studied than Roy Jinks in certain areas. Col. Pate has been a mentor to me for over 30 years (going back to the dark ages of pre-internet). In the very beginning I though that Col Pate's only interest was in the U.S. Cavalry / 1000 / S&W Americans. A few years later I learned he kept track of ALL U.S. issue revolvers and ALL Model 3 variations.
Ed Cornett has been like a father to me for many decades. I cannot find enough nice words to say about Ed. Ed is a NO BS guy. Ed had Wells Fargo records from "one" of the Wells Fargo armorers facilities which he recently donated I think to the S&WHF.
Personally ... sometimes Ed and Charlie Pate are much more forgiving than I would be as an appraiser and licensed auction house owner, I'm liable if I screw up on an assessment. Thus, there is the quintessential "back door" with words as "appears to be, similar to other known examples", and assessment that because of a variety of items, the author of the letter either feels it to either have more features of a "suspicious" Wells Fargo than known genuine Wells Fargo examples. However, if I don't like it ... you'll know it in no uncertain terms.
A good "gentleman" appraiser would very rarely use the word "FAKE" even though in all likelihood, he may believe it to be an out and out fake. However, even the fakes have a value usually much less a value than an unmarked specimen, after all, it is STILL a real Schofield just NOT a convincing REAL Wells Fargo.
About 15 years ago, I confided in a collector under the promise that he never tell some of my personal secrets. Well, some of those secrets are now in Wikipedia which is like giving instruction manuals to a devious person on how to more successfully make a convincing Wells Fargo Schofield fake (to pass as genuine) from one that was not so previously marked.
Ed puts forth a good point of conjecture being there were more than one Wells Fargo armorer and more than one locations. Likely more than one stamp.
Personally, I don;t like the floating W or F. I like the entire phrase to be on one line stamp, in line, even if stamped at a slight angle. The SN restamped on the side ahead of the WF & cos stamp all seem to be the same or very similar but not identical, again, on one line.
About 25 years ago there was an auction I caught wind of in the State of Washington or Oregon or somewhere up there that included gunsmith tools with a W.F & Cos. stamp. I caught wind later on that a S&W collector-dealer-member purchased that stamp. I will not say who because it is hearsay and not provable but we ALL KNOW of certain guys that make it part of their regular business of enhancing more common S&Ws to magically transform them to "RARE" S&Ws. We mentioned one of them several months back in another post on this same subject of fakes and unscrupulous dealers/sellers.
I know, as a fact and by his own admission (he bragged about it), another member (now deceased) that kept dragging poor Charles Duffy out of retirement to keep doing revolving rifles for him. So good was Charles Duffy's standard refinish it could easily pass for an original. Charles Duffy, himself, would not have ever refinished an old S&W with intent to deceive anyone. It was third parties using Charles's work that was so fine, the person who was the seller had to artificially age the Revolving Rifles because they were TOO nice.
I suspect today there are lesser known gunsmiths that do impeccable quality work and restorations that are invisible. When I did restorative repairs to fine autos, European imports and vintage collector cars, my "buy line" was ... "Restorative Repairs and Refinishing of all fine automobiles", stating that when I was done, if someone could tell where it had been repaired and/or exactly what I repaired ... I'd give them a refund. I once had a Rolls Royce dealer examine a RR I had just repaired for over an hour ... saying OK, I give up ... where was it repaired ?
I surmise there are still true craftsman out there that do the same with collectible firearms as I could do with any high end automobile. It's usually not the craftsman that's trying to pass it off as original but rather, someone who hired him to repair it.
Perhaps I went a little off track here but not much. It makes my blood boil when sellers are less than truthful and makes me irate when they are just out and out scamsters.
I love a good "story" that comes with an old S&W but only if it's true. I can tell you who I purchased any of my oldies from and everything I factually know about it. I'll also tell you what I suspect. e.g. if I think the hammer had been changes or other things added after the factory, refinish etc.
Then don't get me started on shill bidders ... that's where I really lose it.
Please don't hesitate to ask for clarification or something I may have jumped over while on this partial rage of oratory above.
MRCVS (Ian) acquainted me with John Kopec on the Colt SAAs. I'm impressed !! With all the SAA fake US guns out there (anyone remember Tom Haas ?). I knew a collector from my club ... the centerpiece of his display for over 20 years was a US, SAA he had purchased from Tom Haas decades back. Back around 2000 or so, a few collectors got together with micrometers and 40x magnification devices to determine Tom Haas's fakes were so good, they were near impossible to tell except by one or 2 small features, as stated ... so Tom, Himself, could tell if it was one of his or not.
After 20 years of owning it, he found out it was a fake US SAA. He was sick when the private collectors' examination board of Colt collectors proved it to him and I don't think he ever got over it.
All the best, Sal Raimondi
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