Is there anyone who will authenticate a Wells Fargo stamped 1st Model Schofield. Plenty of posts out there but at the end of the day it would be good to have the example that has come into my possession to get a thorough review by an expert. Any contact info appreciated if available.
Wells Fargo Schofield - Authentication
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mmaher94087
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Post a few photos and maybe we can help. I'd recommend Model 3 on this forum.
I would think such a gun would have already been lettered if not approach with skepticism, especially given what one such as this might cost.
Post some clearly focused photos here and send me an EMAIL from the connection link in this forum. Sal Raimondi, Sr. AKA MODEL3SW
I've attached pictures. Have not taken delivery yet but when I do I can post better ones. Understand comment regards letter. I think it's a pretty sure bet the 1st Model Schofield is correct. I am taking the gun from someone I trust and at least this person believes it's authentic. All serial number (2438) and correct inspector marks for 1st Model in right places. I have yet to inspect rear barrel, catch and catch screw which I will when gun arrives. US on the toe of butt. Grips are numbered to gun. Gang stamp of WF & COS EX is in straight line with W and F being marked up into the Schofield patent so a bit hard to see. With all of that my interest is validity of Wells Fargo story and I don't think a letter will help with that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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The museum where I work as a volunteer firearms historian has a similar Schofield that was validated as a Wells Fargo issue based on pictures I posted on this forum. I think you will get valuable input here. I agree a letter will not confirm that it's a Wells Fargo gun although it may provide other good information.
I'd need to see this one, in hand and partially dismantle. I'm not getting all warm and fuzzy about the WF and Cos stamp being so dead on top of the S&W roll marks. While many are a tad off and most a bit slanted, I've never encountered one this bad ... meaning so dead on top of the S&W stamp. I am NOT stating it is a fake nor an authentic WF. Don't have enough data yet. I'd have to check internal parts.
While John Hall was an impeccable collector, he's gone over 20 years. I cannot imagine he'd pass up purchasing one with a bad stamp if he paid a lesser price for it. Even the bad stamped and fake WF marks Schofileds have a value, too. Just not anything near the value of the authentic Wells Fargo.
If it comes down to it, Ed Cornett can offer some valuable input from his records of 80+ yeasr but he's retired and donated his records. Then Col. Chas. Pate (US Army retired and noted author) has more records of Model 3s in all variations inspected than any other collector, ever.
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None of the WF&Co guns letter, they were purchased by Wells Fargo as used guns.
I'll try to get you a picture of mine. There are a lot of fakes. I have records of Schofields that showed up at gun shows later as WF&Co that weren't the first time. I'm sure you're aware of that.
Hopefully it is just as you think, a legitimate model because its so nice on its face, WF and all else is a big plus.
Nice grab.
Nice grab.
Richochet
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Expertise
Charles Pate is THE expert when it comes to the Wells Fargo Models. His book about the American Model is an essential reference work on the subject.
Charles Pate is THE expert when it comes to the Wells Fargo Models. His book about the American Model is an essential reference work on the subject.
Yes, that is absolutely correct. Except my SN 1080 that letters it was sent back to the factory in July 1945 to have the finish changed to nickel. At that time the barrel had already been cut to 5" and stamped with Wells Fargo. (almost exact quote on letter).
That was an outstanding and unique surprise to the letter from Roy Jinks. Wells Fargo stamped fakes didn't start to show up until the 1980s in what seemed to be a large quantity. Before 1980s a "Wells Fargo" marked Schofield was worth LESS than the non-marked 5". In the 1980s the prices evened out, then into the 1990s the Wells Fargo prices far surpassed the non-marked 5" models.
The complete edit on the Schofields and most Model 3 variations in the Blue Book of Gun Values are my edits. There sure ARE more fake Wells Fargo marked Schofields than genuine Wells Fargo guns, some of the fakes are quite impressive.
Even after inspection ... a high quality fake is tough to distinguish from a genuine. It involves opening and inspected the revolvers and years of experience wherein many genuine Wells Fargos were within certain serial number ranges, it seems. Not that an odd one can't be correct, too, those known in the 800s to 1200s SN range (appx) seem to be where the majority (but not all) of the genuine Wells Fargos are found.
Hope that adds some depth to everyone's research.
Sal Raimondi, Sr. (MODEL3SW)
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Hey Sal, your post brings up a question. Is there anyone or any company out there that authenticates vintage revolvers? I am talking about letters of provenience that are used widely in other collecting circles? Never ran across anyone offering this type of service for firearms?
It would be VERY difficult for a company to authenticate revolvers, all makes and models. There are just too many revolvers out there for any one individual to be able to authenticate and be aware of all the variations and model changes. There are individuals who authenticate a subset of certain types of revolvers. I'm sure there are others out there for specific models that I am not aware of, but they might be few and far between.
The one that comes to mind is John Kopec and his authentication service for Colt Cavalry and Artillery Model revolvers only: John A. Kopec
Interestingly in the S&W catalog the three examples of believed authentic guns have markings 1, 3420 and 5549. As Sal states there is a cluster in a set range but others are out there. If ultimate validation comes from Wells Fargo inspector marks or a list of known serial numbers it would be good to have those resources available to the S&W collector community . John Kopec is a good resource in that regard for the Colt collectors as mentioned.
Authentication equals Data plus Provenence
This is a great Historical Subject. I think that Sals gun is standing on rock solid ground with the Factory letter backing it up.
So using Sal's gun as a foundation? My data base has 47 Model 1 Schofields with the exact same barrel "Wells Fargo" stamp as Sals from Serial number 1 to Serial number 1897. See photo 1.
That's the only stamp that in my opinion is "Confirmed" Authentic.
I'm not saying others are not? I'm only saying the stamp is backed up by "Solid Evidence" and Data.
Ed (Opec) also confirmed that via a letter from Robert Chandler( Wells Fargo Historian) to Jim Supica that this barrel marking is Post August 1, 1898.
The Schofield became surplus after 1880 (after only 5 years of service?) but that's not entirely accurate. Some did but many remained in service throughout the Indian Wars and the 1898 Spanish American War. In fact there are unit records that confirm they were still in service after 1900.
So the likelihood of "Batches" being sold as Surplus over a 25 year period is not only high? It's supported historically. This position supporting the likelihood of multiple barrel Well's Fargo Stamps.... I just believe that Early Stamps (PHOTO 2 and 3) should be much scarcer than say Sal's example. But since they are the easiest to fake? That's why so many are seen.
Trying to authenticate them is going to be very difficult without more solid records.
You can see in photo 2 and 3 that the so-called line stamp is not straight. So, often collectors are suspect but for the life of me they look legit. Especially photo 2 with the worn stamp? I mean that looks real to me? but more research is needed. Both of these guns sold for near or a little more than $6,000! So somebody believed them to be legit!
One more comment on "EXPRESS" guns? It's documented that the vast majority (not all but most) were ordered by EXPRESS companies like American, US, Railway, etc......very late in the 1890's to early 1900's. Factory marked examples and orders of over 1200-1500 38 cal topbreaks as an example were not uncommon for various EXPRESS companies. I have several topbreak 38 cal Smith & Wessons of various models that letter as EXPRESS guns and are so marked. My point being that they were ordered late in the 1800's and very large orders placed! This doesn't include large orders of Colt lightnings and Iver Johnsons that are confirmed. 800-1200 units in the separate orders placed. This data just proves that "many" were ordered and are authentic via research confirmation and Factory documents. Add them up and you come up with literally thousands of "Factory Ordered" EXPRESS GUNS! That doesn't include guns ordered directly from Distributors!
So I think that there were many Wells Fargo Schofields. How many? Research in progress. What makes it extremely difficult are these quality fakes that have been out for several decades now. I actually bought a fake Wells Fargo Schofield several years ago...Why? It was $900.... So I figured, it's a Real Schofield, all matching, action perfect, clear markings....It's worth it!! I've shot it too...It's a wonderful Antique Smith!
Murph
This is a great Historical Subject. I think that Sals gun is standing on rock solid ground with the Factory letter backing it up.
So using Sal's gun as a foundation? My data base has 47 Model 1 Schofields with the exact same barrel "Wells Fargo" stamp as Sals from Serial number 1 to Serial number 1897. See photo 1.
That's the only stamp that in my opinion is "Confirmed" Authentic.
I'm not saying others are not? I'm only saying the stamp is backed up by "Solid Evidence" and Data.
Ed (Opec) also confirmed that via a letter from Robert Chandler( Wells Fargo Historian) to Jim Supica that this barrel marking is Post August 1, 1898.
The Schofield became surplus after 1880 (after only 5 years of service?) but that's not entirely accurate. Some did but many remained in service throughout the Indian Wars and the 1898 Spanish American War. In fact there are unit records that confirm they were still in service after 1900.
So the likelihood of "Batches" being sold as Surplus over a 25 year period is not only high? It's supported historically. This position supporting the likelihood of multiple barrel Well's Fargo Stamps.... I just believe that Early Stamps (PHOTO 2 and 3) should be much scarcer than say Sal's example. But since they are the easiest to fake? That's why so many are seen.
Trying to authenticate them is going to be very difficult without more solid records.
You can see in photo 2 and 3 that the so-called line stamp is not straight. So, often collectors are suspect but for the life of me they look legit. Especially photo 2 with the worn stamp? I mean that looks real to me? but more research is needed. Both of these guns sold for near or a little more than $6,000! So somebody believed them to be legit!
One more comment on "EXPRESS" guns? It's documented that the vast majority (not all but most) were ordered by EXPRESS companies like American, US, Railway, etc......very late in the 1890's to early 1900's. Factory marked examples and orders of over 1200-1500 38 cal topbreaks as an example were not uncommon for various EXPRESS companies. I have several topbreak 38 cal Smith & Wessons of various models that letter as EXPRESS guns and are so marked. My point being that they were ordered late in the 1800's and very large orders placed! This doesn't include large orders of Colt lightnings and Iver Johnsons that are confirmed. 800-1200 units in the separate orders placed. This data just proves that "many" were ordered and are authentic via research confirmation and Factory documents. Add them up and you come up with literally thousands of "Factory Ordered" EXPRESS GUNS! That doesn't include guns ordered directly from Distributors!
So I think that there were many Wells Fargo Schofields. How many? Research in progress. What makes it extremely difficult are these quality fakes that have been out for several decades now. I actually bought a fake Wells Fargo Schofield several years ago...Why? It was $900.... So I figured, it's a Real Schofield, all matching, action perfect, clear markings....It's worth it!! I've shot it too...It's a wonderful Antique Smith!
Murph
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Gary, Will answer a few questions in the parameters of this response.
Years back an appraisal or inspection letter was 90%+of the time for insurance purposes. Have I seen inflated appraisals, YES ! Usually these were written by one of the bigger selling antique dealers, e.g. Carlson, Condon. Norm Flayderman was about the most respected letter you could get ... IF he wanted to do it for you. If you purchased it from him, no charge. if not, something rather reasonable cost. For Colt Black Powder, Herb Glass, and a few others, all equally qualified, I feel but some others too, that would mean nothing to me.
On the Model 3 variations, I "believe" Roy Double was either "the" first to dive deeply into the Model 3s. He was an innovator. He was the most researched and honorable and I "think" the first collector to make a serious study of the Model 3 variations.
Col. Charles Pate (US Army Retired) is another, highly qualified expert and author, even more studied than Roy Jinks in certain areas. Col. Pate has been a mentor to me for over 30 years (going back to the dark ages of pre-internet). In the very beginning I though that Col Pate's only interest was in the U.S. Cavalry / 1000 / S&W Americans. A few years later I learned he kept track of ALL U.S. issue revolvers and ALL Model 3 variations.
Ed Cornett has been like a father to me for many decades. I cannot find enough nice words to say about Ed. Ed is a NO BS guy. Ed had Wells Fargo records from "one" of the Wells Fargo armorers facilities which he recently donated I think to the S&WHF.
Personally ... sometimes Ed and Charlie Pate are much more forgiving than I would be as an appraiser and licensed auction house owner, I'm liable if I screw up on an assessment. Thus, there is the quintessential "back door" with words as "appears to be, similar to other known examples", and assessment that because of a variety of items, the author of the letter either feels it to either have more features of a "suspicious" Wells Fargo than known genuine Wells Fargo examples. However, if I don't like it ... you'll know it in no uncertain terms.
A good "gentleman" appraiser would very rarely use the word "FAKE" even though in all likelihood, he may believe it to be an out and out fake. However, even the fakes have a value usually much less a value than an unmarked specimen, after all, it is STILL a real Schofield just NOT a convincing REAL Wells Fargo.
About 15 years ago, I confided in a collector under the promise that he never tell some of my personal secrets. Well, some of those secrets are now in Wikipedia which is like giving instruction manuals to a devious person on how to more successfully make a convincing Wells Fargo Schofield fake (to pass as genuine) from one that was not so previously marked.
Ed puts forth a good point of conjecture being there were more than one Wells Fargo armorer and more than one locations. Likely more than one stamp.
Personally, I don;t like the floating W or F. I like the entire phrase to be on one line stamp, in line, even if stamped at a slight angle. The SN restamped on the side ahead of the WF & cos stamp all seem to be the same or very similar but not identical, again, on one line.
About 25 years ago there was an auction I caught wind of in the State of Washington or Oregon or somewhere up there that included gunsmith tools with a W.F & Cos. stamp. I caught wind later on that a S&W collector-dealer-member purchased that stamp. I will not say who because it is hearsay and not provable but we ALL KNOW of certain guys that make it part of their regular business of enhancing more common S&Ws to magically transform them to "RARE" S&Ws. We mentioned one of them several months back in another post on this same subject of fakes and unscrupulous dealers/sellers.
I know, as a fact and by his own admission (he bragged about it), another member (now deceased) that kept dragging poor Charles Duffy out of retirement to keep doing revolving rifles for him. So good was Charles Duffy's standard refinish it could easily pass for an original. Charles Duffy, himself, would not have ever refinished an old S&W with intent to deceive anyone. It was third parties using Charles's work that was so fine, the person who was the seller had to artificially age the Revolving Rifles because they were TOO nice.
I suspect today there are lesser known gunsmiths that do impeccable quality work and restorations that are invisible. When I did restorative repairs to fine autos, European imports and vintage collector cars, my "buy line" was ... "Restorative Repairs and Refinishing of all fine automobiles", stating that when I was done, if someone could tell where it had been repaired and/or exactly what I repaired ... I'd give them a refund. I once had a Rolls Royce dealer examine a RR I had just repaired for over an hour ... saying OK, I give up ... where was it repaired ?
I surmise there are still true craftsman out there that do the same with collectible firearms as I could do with any high end automobile. It's usually not the craftsman that's trying to pass it off as original but rather, someone who hired him to repair it.
Perhaps I went a little off track here but not much. It makes my blood boil when sellers are less than truthful and makes me irate when they are just out and out scamsters.
I love a good "story" that comes with an old S&W but only if it's true. I can tell you who I purchased any of my oldies from and everything I factually know about it. I'll also tell you what I suspect. e.g. if I think the hammer had been changes or other things added after the factory, refinish etc.
Then don't get me started on shill bidders ... that's where I really lose it.
Please don't hesitate to ask for clarification or something I may have jumped over while on this partial rage of oratory above.
MRCVS (Ian) acquainted me with John Kopec on the Colt SAAs. I'm impressed !! With all the SAA fake US guns out there (anyone remember Tom Haas ?). I knew a collector from my club ... the centerpiece of his display for over 20 years was a US, SAA he had purchased from Tom Haas decades back. Back around 2000 or so, a few collectors got together with micrometers and 40x magnification devices to determine Tom Haas's fakes were so good, they were near impossible to tell except by one or 2 small features, as stated ... so Tom, Himself, could tell if it was one of his or not.
After 20 years of owning it, he found out it was a fake US SAA. He was sick when the private collectors' examination board of Colt collectors proved it to him and I don't think he ever got over it.
All the best, Sal Raimondi
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You pay your money, you takes your ride!
Excellent
The ones I have in my data base that are supported have the 5 1/16" to 5 1/8" barrel with a clear muzzle crown like yours.
Please also post any markings under the grips on the grip frame, under the barrel and anything out of the ordinary inspector marks for a more thorough evaluation from the senior members.
Thanks Mark and Congrats on receiving your Smith & Wesson Wells Fargo collectable. Thanks also for providing the forum with this information for records and authentication purposes.
Murph
The ones I have in my data base that are supported have the 5 1/16" to 5 1/8" barrel with a clear muzzle crown like yours.
Please also post any markings under the grips on the grip frame, under the barrel and anything out of the ordinary inspector marks for a more thorough evaluation from the senior members.
Thanks Mark and Congrats on receiving your Smith & Wesson Wells Fargo collectable. Thanks also for providing the forum with this information for records and authentication purposes.
Murph
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Thanks Murph. Once I finish stripping it down I will post some additional info. What I ask is that if anyone can comment on the serial number 2438 and whether it is on or not on any known list it would be appreciated. That's not something I will be able to surmise from inspecting this gun.
Wells Fargo Schofield Research
Mark,
I'm surprised no one has chimed in on the list?
I'm not aware that one exists. My research is ongoing. It's possible that a partial list exists with The Railway Express Agency that purchased the bulk of Wells Fargo guns in 1918 with their acquisition of the Wells Fargo Express Company and property that is well documented.
There are several auction letters out there that contain information about guns that they bought from Wells Fargo and had detailed records for many years. I've seen letters from the 1960's that authenticate guns obtained in 1918 from Wells Fargo.
Problem being that they would not contain dates that Wells Fargo obtained the guns.
I learn something new every day it seems. Adding more to my data base. Also finding many more sources of information that seem promising.
Especially on the "EXPRESS" guns from factory ledgers(factory letter) research. I believe that the documented information contained in the Colt and Smith & Wesson archives regarding shipping information, factory markings, persons of interest, who received the guns, who ordered the guns, how many were shipped, a definite pattern of ordering, and where they ended up is critical to evaluating the Schofields. Even though there are no factory records on the Schofields other than issued to Springfield Armory in the mid 1870's? This pattern can not be ignored. There would be no reason to deviate from this pattern "JUST for the Schofields".
We can most definitely cross reference very distinct patterns followed by American Express and Wells Fargo Agents when ordering guns from the factory after 1892. Before this time the vast majority were ordered directly from the Major Distributor.
Even Mr. Jinks clearly mentions that in several factory letters that I have read on Smith & Wesson 38's ordered in the early 1890's from the factory by Agents representing the Express Companies.
That part is proven and also throws another wrench into the Schofield Wells Fargo 45's.... Suggesting that a large portion were purchased prior to 1892. I firmly believe this to be true.
The more information I confirm from factory letters the more odd' the Schofields are. They actually make little sense from a timeline perspective. I've extended the late W.F. & CO. EX. barrel stamp to serial number 3500 in the model 1. Also, if you follow the methods used by Company Purchasers/Agents?
They consistently ordered specific amounts of guns "Monthly" that "NEVER" exceeded 50 guns per order over a 25 year documented period!!!! So a bulk order of Schofields of over 50 guns per order at any time is "extremely unlikely". This information follows a long term "fill as needed" pattern to "ALL" Express guns from the late 1880's until about 1917.
A very distinct pattern is developing in my data that supports a very steady "HUGE" order of EXPRESS guns over very long periods of time. In some cases 1700 guns and 1900 guns over a 20 year period. That only accounts for a small percentage! It's documented!
Obviously the Surplus Schofields would be no exception to this rule. What seems extremely difficult is dating them. I'm working on it though. Given the fact that they were considered Surplus after 1880 one can suggest strongly that a steady supply was available for both the Major Distributor and EXPRESS agents assigned to supply the demand over a very long period of time. I'm a believer in that theory.
I'm also going to stick my neck out here but I honestly don't believe that a "Huge" stock of them became suddenly available after the Spanish American War. That position does not fit in the data that I have collected.
I personally feel that the biggest oddity regarding the Schofield Wells Fargo variation is the unorthodox barrel stamps. I mean honestly....They make ZERO sense. Even the early 1890 Distributor Stamps on EXPRESS guns of 38 caliber and 45 Colt caliber have very large letters stamped on the back strap or butt of the gun.....These barrel stamps are off the hook odd!
Murph
Mark,
I'm surprised no one has chimed in on the list?
I'm not aware that one exists. My research is ongoing. It's possible that a partial list exists with The Railway Express Agency that purchased the bulk of Wells Fargo guns in 1918 with their acquisition of the Wells Fargo Express Company and property that is well documented.
There are several auction letters out there that contain information about guns that they bought from Wells Fargo and had detailed records for many years. I've seen letters from the 1960's that authenticate guns obtained in 1918 from Wells Fargo.
Problem being that they would not contain dates that Wells Fargo obtained the guns.
I learn something new every day it seems. Adding more to my data base. Also finding many more sources of information that seem promising.
Especially on the "EXPRESS" guns from factory ledgers(factory letter) research. I believe that the documented information contained in the Colt and Smith & Wesson archives regarding shipping information, factory markings, persons of interest, who received the guns, who ordered the guns, how many were shipped, a definite pattern of ordering, and where they ended up is critical to evaluating the Schofields. Even though there are no factory records on the Schofields other than issued to Springfield Armory in the mid 1870's? This pattern can not be ignored. There would be no reason to deviate from this pattern "JUST for the Schofields".
We can most definitely cross reference very distinct patterns followed by American Express and Wells Fargo Agents when ordering guns from the factory after 1892. Before this time the vast majority were ordered directly from the Major Distributor.
Even Mr. Jinks clearly mentions that in several factory letters that I have read on Smith & Wesson 38's ordered in the early 1890's from the factory by Agents representing the Express Companies.
That part is proven and also throws another wrench into the Schofield Wells Fargo 45's.... Suggesting that a large portion were purchased prior to 1892. I firmly believe this to be true.
The more information I confirm from factory letters the more odd' the Schofields are. They actually make little sense from a timeline perspective. I've extended the late W.F. & CO. EX. barrel stamp to serial number 3500 in the model 1. Also, if you follow the methods used by Company Purchasers/Agents?
They consistently ordered specific amounts of guns "Monthly" that "NEVER" exceeded 50 guns per order over a 25 year documented period!!!! So a bulk order of Schofields of over 50 guns per order at any time is "extremely unlikely". This information follows a long term "fill as needed" pattern to "ALL" Express guns from the late 1880's until about 1917.
A very distinct pattern is developing in my data that supports a very steady "HUGE" order of EXPRESS guns over very long periods of time. In some cases 1700 guns and 1900 guns over a 20 year period. That only accounts for a small percentage! It's documented!
Obviously the Surplus Schofields would be no exception to this rule. What seems extremely difficult is dating them. I'm working on it though. Given the fact that they were considered Surplus after 1880 one can suggest strongly that a steady supply was available for both the Major Distributor and EXPRESS agents assigned to supply the demand over a very long period of time. I'm a believer in that theory.
I'm also going to stick my neck out here but I honestly don't believe that a "Huge" stock of them became suddenly available after the Spanish American War. That position does not fit in the data that I have collected.
I personally feel that the biggest oddity regarding the Schofield Wells Fargo variation is the unorthodox barrel stamps. I mean honestly....They make ZERO sense. Even the early 1890 Distributor Stamps on EXPRESS guns of 38 caliber and 45 Colt caliber have very large letters stamped on the back strap or butt of the gun.....These barrel stamps are off the hook odd!
Murph
Dating by Stamp
I've found a ton more information on Wells Fargo Express Co. Also many other Express companies that purchased Cartridge revolvers from the Late 1870's up to the 1930's.
One thing regarding the Schofields that is a totally unsupported concept? Dating them by barrel Stamp? There is zero proof that you can date them by CO'S vs CO on the Wells Fargo Barrel stamp.
When we look at the origin of Wells Fargo Express Co. It began in San Francisco in 1852 as " Wells Fargo & Co." not CO's.
I've found dozens of period photos that clearly show Wells Fargo and Company Express on office signs, Stage coaches, strong boxes, letters, checks, shot guns, leather satchels, money orders, bank receipts, and most importantly early Distributor purchased Colt Lightning's that date to the late 1870's and early 1880's. Even one as late as 1892 having a very small stamp like is seen on the Schofield barrel. The stamp depicts : WELLS FARGO & CO. NOT CO's!
So basically I'm finding only strong evidence that these Wells Fargo Surplus Schofields were purchased by Agents representing Wells Fargo & Co. Express Primarily " Prior" to 1890!
I've even found Colts that are backed by Factory Letters having a factory stamped: W.F.& Co. ( Not CO's) on the backstrap initially, then post 1895 on the butt.
I've always believed these were early Cartridge guns for Wells Fargo. Post 1898 makes Zero sense for the Surplus Schofields.
Murph
I've found a ton more information on Wells Fargo Express Co. Also many other Express companies that purchased Cartridge revolvers from the Late 1870's up to the 1930's.
One thing regarding the Schofields that is a totally unsupported concept? Dating them by barrel Stamp? There is zero proof that you can date them by CO'S vs CO on the Wells Fargo Barrel stamp.
When we look at the origin of Wells Fargo Express Co. It began in San Francisco in 1852 as " Wells Fargo & Co." not CO's.
I've found dozens of period photos that clearly show Wells Fargo and Company Express on office signs, Stage coaches, strong boxes, letters, checks, shot guns, leather satchels, money orders, bank receipts, and most importantly early Distributor purchased Colt Lightning's that date to the late 1870's and early 1880's. Even one as late as 1892 having a very small stamp like is seen on the Schofield barrel. The stamp depicts : WELLS FARGO & CO. NOT CO's!
So basically I'm finding only strong evidence that these Wells Fargo Surplus Schofields were purchased by Agents representing Wells Fargo & Co. Express Primarily " Prior" to 1890!
I've even found Colts that are backed by Factory Letters having a factory stamped: W.F.& Co. ( Not CO's) on the backstrap initially, then post 1895 on the butt.
I've always believed these were early Cartridge guns for Wells Fargo. Post 1898 makes Zero sense for the Surplus Schofields.
Murph
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Murph,
Thank you for the research into this and for sharing your information.
Petter
Thank you for the research into this and for sharing your information.
Petter
More to follow
Thanks Peter,
This subject is a lot of fun to research. I've got more information to post but I'm waiting on correspondence from a few Wells Fargo Historians first.
Unfortunately Dr. Robert Chandler The Wells Fargo Historian that communicated with members has Passed away. He died last year unfortunately. So I'm going through 3 other Wells Fargo Historians to see if any records exist.
Murph
Thanks Peter,
This subject is a lot of fun to research. I've got more information to post but I'm waiting on correspondence from a few Wells Fargo Historians first.
Unfortunately Dr. Robert Chandler The Wells Fargo Historian that communicated with members has Passed away. He died last year unfortunately. So I'm going through 3 other Wells Fargo Historians to see if any records exist.
Murph
Historical Department got it right
I'd like to input the information that I have researched but it's a ton so I'll just punch it in gradually over the next few days.
I'd just like to start by saying that the Smith & Wesson Historical Department got it right. It seems when we get ourselves into trouble is when we input information from General Historians that do not specialize in firearms research. I'm not trying to discount any information from Wells Fargo? but they most definitely do not specialize in firearms research and the information that they provide is honestly focused on the Company's culture and Policies over the years.
So basically All the information that I've found backs up the Historical Department from Smith and Wesson and the 60 plus years that they have been at it.
So, one final input on the Co's vs Co on the Wells Fargo Schofield stamp? Prior to 1898 when the Company implemented a Streamline "Wells Fargo & Company Express"....there was no set company Standard...It was ALL over the place based on what part of the country and what office you happened to be referring to. Thousands of them after 1870!
So we need to put that to rest. You most definitely can not date a Wells Fargo Schofield based only on the Stamp on the barrel having a Co's vs Co.
See very early photo's of Wells Fargo & Co pre 1880!
Also, notice in the last photo of the Company broadsheet? Wells Fargo & Co Express from 1870 was worth( total capitol) 10 Million dollars! An enormous company by 1870!! Just as a comparison? The Bacon Arms company and their neighbors The Hood firearms Company of Norwich Ct. were listed as having a total Capitol of $25,000 and $26,000 in 1875!
Murph
I'd like to input the information that I have researched but it's a ton so I'll just punch it in gradually over the next few days.
I'd just like to start by saying that the Smith & Wesson Historical Department got it right. It seems when we get ourselves into trouble is when we input information from General Historians that do not specialize in firearms research. I'm not trying to discount any information from Wells Fargo? but they most definitely do not specialize in firearms research and the information that they provide is honestly focused on the Company's culture and Policies over the years.
So basically All the information that I've found backs up the Historical Department from Smith and Wesson and the 60 plus years that they have been at it.
So, one final input on the Co's vs Co on the Wells Fargo Schofield stamp? Prior to 1898 when the Company implemented a Streamline "Wells Fargo & Company Express"....there was no set company Standard...It was ALL over the place based on what part of the country and what office you happened to be referring to. Thousands of them after 1870!
So we need to put that to rest. You most definitely can not date a Wells Fargo Schofield based only on the Stamp on the barrel having a Co's vs Co.
See very early photo's of Wells Fargo & Co pre 1880!
Also, notice in the last photo of the Company broadsheet? Wells Fargo & Co Express from 1870 was worth( total capitol) 10 Million dollars! An enormous company by 1870!! Just as a comparison? The Bacon Arms company and their neighbors The Hood firearms Company of Norwich Ct. were listed as having a total Capitol of $25,000 and $26,000 in 1875!
Murph
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Accurate Timeline
Mr. Jinks lists the Schofield revolver being sold as surplus beginning in 1880. The model 1 manufactured for only one year in 1875 and the Model 2 until approx. 1878.
So the product line was basically terminated in 1878. When Wells Fargo purchased the Surplus Schofields in bulk they were still relatively new.
However, when we follow an accurate timeline using the Major Distributors as a guide we see the Schofields becoming quickly obsolete approximately 10 years later. This is the Standard for any firearm manufactured throughout history that has been discontinued. Parts become scarce to none available approximately 10 years after termination of the product line.
This also supports that the bulk of the Schofields were purchased early in the 1880's by not only Wells Fargo but American Express as well. I found a lot of evidence that they also purchased Surplus Schofields.
So again the Real problem with the position that the Schofields remained in the Express Service into the 1890s is that "Parts" were no longer available on the open market since the product line had being terminated 15 years prior.
As an example: In the 1892 "Major" Distributor catalog for Schovering, Daly & Gales we see "NO PARTS" listed for the 45 Schofield. All other Smith & Wessons show a complete parts list for all revolvers manufactured at that time.
Also, the cartridges became extremely expensive in the late 1880's and by the early 1890's the 45 S&W round is no longer listed available in my Distributor Catalogs.
So the Schofield revolver was basically an obsolete revolver by 1890 having no factory replacement parts or ammunition readily available and therefore would not be a viable Agent field service revolver by that time. It's as simple as that!
Wells Fargo would have used the guns in the field during a period in the Old West that was still quite rough( the early 1880's) and the guns would have suffered from very hard conditions for approximately a 10 year period. At which point they were basically worn out and obsolete. The market data supports this position. In fact "all" the data that I have found supports this position.
So basically the information and data collected supports that Wells Fargo & Co Express and also American Express Co. basically unloaded the bulk of the Schofields prior to 1890 as no longer serviceable revolvers and replaced them in a very short period of time with .38 caliber revolvers of various makes and models. Also clearly documented by 1890 with consistent and detailed factory letters that I have collected.
These letters also depict a very clear and distinct pattern used by agents representing the Express Companies that streamlined purchases from initially the Major Distributors and finally directly from the gun manufacturers in the early to mid 1890's. All proven from factory recorded data.
Murph
Mr. Jinks lists the Schofield revolver being sold as surplus beginning in 1880. The model 1 manufactured for only one year in 1875 and the Model 2 until approx. 1878.
So the product line was basically terminated in 1878. When Wells Fargo purchased the Surplus Schofields in bulk they were still relatively new.
However, when we follow an accurate timeline using the Major Distributors as a guide we see the Schofields becoming quickly obsolete approximately 10 years later. This is the Standard for any firearm manufactured throughout history that has been discontinued. Parts become scarce to none available approximately 10 years after termination of the product line.
This also supports that the bulk of the Schofields were purchased early in the 1880's by not only Wells Fargo but American Express as well. I found a lot of evidence that they also purchased Surplus Schofields.
So again the Real problem with the position that the Schofields remained in the Express Service into the 1890s is that "Parts" were no longer available on the open market since the product line had being terminated 15 years prior.
As an example: In the 1892 "Major" Distributor catalog for Schovering, Daly & Gales we see "NO PARTS" listed for the 45 Schofield. All other Smith & Wessons show a complete parts list for all revolvers manufactured at that time.
Also, the cartridges became extremely expensive in the late 1880's and by the early 1890's the 45 S&W round is no longer listed available in my Distributor Catalogs.
So the Schofield revolver was basically an obsolete revolver by 1890 having no factory replacement parts or ammunition readily available and therefore would not be a viable Agent field service revolver by that time. It's as simple as that!
Wells Fargo would have used the guns in the field during a period in the Old West that was still quite rough( the early 1880's) and the guns would have suffered from very hard conditions for approximately a 10 year period. At which point they were basically worn out and obsolete. The market data supports this position. In fact "all" the data that I have found supports this position.
So basically the information and data collected supports that Wells Fargo & Co Express and also American Express Co. basically unloaded the bulk of the Schofields prior to 1890 as no longer serviceable revolvers and replaced them in a very short period of time with .38 caliber revolvers of various makes and models. Also clearly documented by 1890 with consistent and detailed factory letters that I have collected.
These letters also depict a very clear and distinct pattern used by agents representing the Express Companies that streamlined purchases from initially the Major Distributors and finally directly from the gun manufacturers in the early to mid 1890's. All proven from factory recorded data.
Murph
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