Wells Fargo Schofield - Authentication

[Schof45]

Murph,
Again thank you for researching this and for sharing your findings.
In addition to the Co's vs Co, it's also the three different sizes in the serial number markings. The small size being about the same size as the company name abbreviations and the most common. The medium size is supposedly from the Chicago office and the large size is rare. In your research have you leaned anything more about number sizing?

 

[Borderboss]

I have nothing to contribute to this thread. I just wanted to thank everyone, especially Murph, for all the outstanding information that's being shared. As someone who loves history, the Old West, and the use of firearms in the Old West, this particular subject is really fascinating.

Now I'm afraid that I'm going to be driven to go out and get an old Schofield! Oh-no!!

 

[texmex]

It is a neat old revolver whether it is a real Wells Fargo or not. I know that makes a lot of difference in the value, but if you never intend to sell it, does it really matter. If I could afford it, I would be happy to have it no matter what.
I was just wondering, would serial number one be worth more or less if it wasn't stamped Wells Fargo? I guess it doesn't matter since it is probably priceless anyway.
While I am day dreaming about what if, what if the army stuck with the Model Three revolvers they purchased before the Colt SAA? What if the army had adopted the Russian Model with its inside lubricated cartridge instead of the Colt 45? Would that have made a difference for the troops at the Little Bighorn? Would it have influenced the later decision to transition to a semi-auto pistol? We know the cavalry was not anxious to adopt the 1911. The 1909 and 1917 revolvers didn't give up much to the 1911. Since the military usually insisted the 1911 be carried with an empty chamber, it only carried 7 rounds compared to 6 in the revolver. It was slower to get into action, plus it required both hands one of which was supposed to be controlling the horse. The 1917 was just about as fast to reload as the 1911 especially if they had figured out how to make a full moon clips instead of the half moon. What if they had figured out how to make the 1917 work with rimmed 45 ammo (Colt or S&W) as well as moon clips like the Governor does today?

 

[BMur]

Property Stamp and Property Number

Hey Boarderboss, now would be a good time to buy I'd say since the market is down...Might find one cheap!

Peter,
The subject of Company stamps is in no way a small one. I'm trying to consolidate the subject but it's difficult.
Lets begin by recognizing the correct term that has been given to the various Express Stamps from the Historical Department and Mr. Jinks.
In several letters that I have read Mr. Jinks calls the stamps "PROPERTY STAMPS" and the numbers "PROPERTY NUMBERS" so I'd like to follow that lead.

Wells Fargo and American Express both purchased the Schofields. I've also cross referenced the early 38 Colt lightning Property stamps from both companies...See photo 1 and 2...Notice also the Wells Fargo & Co stamp on the backstrap....NOT Co's! The 38 Colt lightning in photo 1 is lettered from the Railway Express Agency( successor to Wells Fargo & Co Express) that confirms it was a Wells Fargo owned Express gun. It also has a Colt factory letter that proves it was shipped through the correct and known Chicago agency "Hibbard, Spencer & Bartlett" in 1878! They were a "HUGE" Express agency gun relay point in history. Documented in several factory letters! The 38 Colt lightning is also an excellent reference gun since it is documented from the advent of production in 1877 to the end in 1909 as being an Express gun for several outfits!

The earliest Property Stamps were stamped by the relevant Express Agency. Photo's 1&2. With NO property number stamp. Just the Express Company Property stamp. Those date to the late 1870's to very early 1880's. I've done no research before cartridge firearms. Only because the records are basically non existent. Not much to go on.
After about 1880 they began stamping a property number next to the property stamp. Also in small letters and numbers "Hand stamped".

So based on that information alone the earliest Schofields that have Wells Fargo property stamps and small property numbers are the earliest guns. Likely from late 1880-1882. See photo 3. These property numbers as you know match the serial number.

The next sequence I documented is the medium size Property number. Unfortunately, I have not been able to cross reference date that variation. I've seen and documented medium sized property numbers from the mid 1880's (based on serial number dating) on the colt lightning backstraps but I have no factory historical reference on those as yet.

It's possible that what we are seeing on the Schofields is just a different office from another location that used a larger stamp at the same or around the same time. The early to mid 1880's.

I've found also that the Property name Wells Fargo & Co's Express was more often used in the Mid-West States...You can find it most anywhere but per capita? The Mid-West predominantly used that Company title with the Co's. The far West used Co. So most of the earliest Schofields likely went to the front lines in California, Nevada, etc. Where all the Express robberies were taking place. Makes perfect sense!

So the large Property number would also fall in the same timeframe. Likely the latest Property number stamp but we are only talking a few years. All taking place way before 1890 and at various locations, stations, etc throughout the WEST...

Remember again that the vast majority of the robberies and unlawful activity is documented as taking place in "The Wild West"....So West of the Santa Fe trail after being shipped through the Chicago office...This represents the "Bulk" of the guns...Not all but the Bulk of them. There are always exceptions.

I've found some Express guns that were shipped directly to San Francisco via Colt factory letter. All consistently stamped with the Property Stamp: WELLS FARGO & Co. EXPRESS or just Wells Fargo & Co, in some instances just W.F. & Co. in small to medium sized letters. With all these guns shipped in the 1880's. This is just further Rock Solid proof that you can't date the Schofields by Co vs Co's.

All of the Company Property Stamps and Property number research is very consistent and well documented beginning in the early 1890's. I'll post that next and you will "Clearly" see the pattern that is undeniable and has absolutely nothing in common with the Early Schofield Wells Fargo guns of the 1880's.

Murph

 

[BMur]

The 1890's a New ERA!

Lets begin again with the Smith & Wesson Historical Department where Mr. Jinks states: "Hartley & Graham purchased large quantities of the 38cal Top break revolvers and supplied American Express Co in the early 1890's prior to the Express Company ordering them directly from the factory".
My research supports that these large quantities of 38 caliber top break Smith & Wesson revolvers "REPLACED" the now aged and obsolete Schofield Revolvers of the 1880's.
This also gives us an idea of how many Schofields were in the field for Wells Fargo and American Express Co. The initial volume of new 38's suggests well over a thousand at least.

See photo 1 where initially the Agents representing the Express Company's purchased very large quantities of 38's and had the Major Distributor Engrave the backstrap with Their Property Name and Property number. This marks the end of Wells Fargo and American Express stamping the guns. US Express and Pacific Express would continue stamping their guns into the mid 1890's. However, those stamps would also be much larger in font. "HUGE" in some cases!

This represents the beginning of the modern streamline purchasing process. Initially purchasing from the Distributor, having them mark the guns. Then a change to Purchasing directly from the factory and having the factory stamp/engrave the guns in the early 1890's. This process is followed by my research until the 1930's. At no time did the Express Company's go back to stamping their guns once they started purchasing large volumes of new guns from the Major Distributor beginning in approximately 1887.

So again, once this procedure started, there is no evidence that they ever went back. Photo two shows a "Factory" marked Smith and Wesson 38 topbreak. This contract lasted from 1892-1905 totaling approximately 1700 guns in 38 caliber.
The Wells Fargo Express guns now show a very distinct stamp on initially the backstrap and eventually moved to the butt: W.F.& Co. Notice also the elimination of Express in the property name?
American Express guns were stamped Am. EX. Co. followed by a property number until approximately 1909.

So we can clearly see that the Schofields had no place in the 1890's. They were not only obsolete weapons but the stamps do not in any way resemble the 1890's Property and Property number stamps. Had they made it to the 1890's? The property and property number stamps would have changed!! They would have been moved to the back strap and/or butt. Without question! Just like the Colt lightning Property stamp changed over the years of service in the Express division. From small letters to medium letters and numbers. Then large cursive letters and numbers. We saw none of this occurring with the Early Schofields! The property stamps remained very small and the property numbers remained individually "hand stamped". They never saw Distributors stamping the guns in a clean, engraved, large cursive manor! Lets also input the Express Company's obvious preference in ordering the 38 caliber small framed weapons by a "HUGE" margin.

There were some 44 WCF DA Colt Frontiers that letter and 45 Colt SAA that also letter but they represented a very small number. Huge volumes by Huge I mean "MANY THOUSANDS" of 38 caliber revolvers over the next 40 years covered in my research were purchased.

My last input on the Express guns will be on "Records"

Murph

 

[DesmoEd]

Very interesting thread with a lot of good info.

To the OP, it looks like a very nice pistol regardless of the WF markings.

There was a pretty interesting discussion about 2 yrs ago regarding these surplus pistols.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-an...-revolver.html?highlight=schofield+refinished

Scroll down to post #38 and #39.

To me the OP's pistol looks like its wearing its original blue finish and this would refute the statement that all surplus pistols were refinished prior to sale to the public.

Its a shame there are so many dubious examples floating around and its for this reason that when I was looking to buy a Schofield I stayed away from the WF pistols.

 

[Schof45]

Murph,

I have one of the S&W DA 38 in my collection, it's a 4th model and marked Am. Ex. Co. 1629. From what I understand, is that it is a relatively high property number. It was shipped from the S&W factory on May 11, 1905.
I thought you might find this factory letter interesting. It verifies the shipment to American Express Co., Springfield MA, and illuminates the fact that it was American Express policy at that time to have their revolvers shipped to the local office in Springfield MA, who would then handle distribution of the handguns to their various agencies and widespread locations.

Petter

 

[BMur]

4th model contract

Petter,
Thanks very kindly for sharing with the forum. I hope you don't mind I added that information to my data. I have several on this model recorded.
Other factory letters and recorded data confirm a person of interest by the name of C.E. Seaton. He was a purchasing agent for American Express Co from the late 1880's until my last recorded data about 1909. This specific 38 Smith & Wesson topbreak contract beginning in about 1892 and ending in 1905 with very close to 1700 guns shipped from the factory....Yours would be one of the last shipped in that contract.
Anyway, the shipping address is often not listed in the factory ledger. Often the buyers address in Springfield is listed as the shipping address. That is actually the location of the American Express office. Which is correct but my research proves that they were actually authorized to be shipped to WM Read & Sons of Boston, Mass by the Agent representing the Express company. They were a significant Distributor of American Express guns. From there many but not all would be shipped to Chicago as a "HUGE" relay point for Express guns moving further West to supply Agents in "The Wild West".

All of this is documented. I also confirmed an "Identical" contract of 38cal "Colt Lightnings" under the exact same conditions. Data proves the purchaser was the agent C.E. Seaton representing American Express Co. He is also listed as a buyer and head of Supply Department.
However, the exact same source claims that he was only the buyer. He might have changed titles throughout his tenure. He authorized the guns to be Shipped to the exact same distributor in Boston. W.M. Read & Sons and in turn using them to ship at least some of the large order of 38's to Chicago for Distribution. This was the process used in the 1890's. A very modernized and efficient method of moving guns safely and securely about the country. They used a similar process in the 1870's and 1880's but it was in no way as efficient. Too much info to post.

That same large contract of Lightnings almost mimics the Smith & Wesson 38 top break contract. Beginning in 1892 and ended with the termination of the lighting model manufacture in 1909. Almost 2000 guns were in that contract.

I actually have a ton more information on other contracts that amount to many thousands of guns but its too lengthy....I'm putting folks to sleep I'm sure but this information is very important to evaluating the Schofields. It proves "Methods Used" in that timeframe. Those Methods are very important to evaluating what was going on at that time in the industry. It clears the air when no records are available for the subject of interest and paints a very readable picture of how Agents representing the Express Company's operated.
When we plug the Schofields into these early 1890's contracts they simply don't fit. They only fit like a glove in the early 1880's. I don't claim to be any sort of an expert. I'm only a student that "Does his Homework".

Murph

 

[BMur]

Revolver in Agents Holster?

I wonder if that's a Schofield in that agents holster? Early Photo.
Definitely too big for a Small frame 38 so???


Murph

 

[BMur]

Records "Part 1"

I have enough information now to input Part 1 of "Records".
A quick History of the End of Wells Fargo & Co. Express occurred in 1918 by order of the President of the United States. Woodrow Wilson ordered that the Private sector of the Express business, that primarily by that time involved the Railroad to ship goods Express, to be consolidated for the good of the country during time of war.
The result was the total elimination of the Private sector and the consolidation of all Express Companies into a Public Express Company controlled by the Government. This included the immediate elimination of the following private Express Companies;

Adams & Co.
American Express Co.
Southern Express Co.
Wells Fargo & Co. Express

This marked the end of those companies involvement in the Express business and the creation of:

The American Railway Express Company.( Government controlled) check out extremely rare photo WWI Era of The American Railway Express with WWI Military in uniform next to Railway office!

It is documented that those companies that were basically dissolved by the U.S. Government were required to "turn over property and guns" to the newly created Public Express Company.
This is documented.

After the war an association of Railroads was created and eventually bought out American Railway Express Co. in 1929 and formed the new Company: Railway Express Agency.(REA)

This company lasted until 1975 at which point they went bankrupt for various reasons.

Now to the records....What apparently happened is in 1918 the guns that were surrendered by the various Express companies were recorded by the Government controlled American Railway Express Co. They were inventoried and recorded. Those were NOT Wells Fargo Records! I found no evidence that Wells Fargo turned over their records.
New records were established in 1918 that simply recorded which company surrendered what guns, specific model, and serial number.
For many years The REA would letter guns for collectors up until about 1969 was the latest letter I could find. See photo 1.

When REA went bankrupt their records went to the Smithsonian. Those records in part are available. I looked through them. I also contacted an archivist and found that the firearms records were destroyed. Not surprising since they went bankrupt right at the end of the Vietnam war. Not much interest in firearms after that War by the various "Left".

I'm applying my researched opinion at this point. I don't believe those records would have helped us anyway. All of my research points at the Schofields no longer being viable revolvers after 1890. So in my researched opinion the "Bulk" of them were sold as once again, Surplus weapons, to the general public,etc. So when the guns were turned over in 1918, none of them were Schofields so no records were generated.

What also backs this position up is that I could find NO authentication letters from REA on Schofields. "If" they exist they would be extremely rare. If anyone has one? I'd like to see it but I honestly believe they do not exist.

So, what's left? I have my feelers out still with the Senior Historian with Wells Fargo and one other..Waiting for their response.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Railway Express Question?

I received an email that I wanted to share with the forum.

A question was brought up regarding REA authentication letters.

Question: How did REA have records on an 1878 Colt lightning Wells Fargo Express gun that you mentioned in one of your posts but not have information on the 1880's Schofields?

The Colt lightning revolver differs from the Schofield in that it was manufactured until 1909. The Schofield product line was terminated in 1878.

This actually follows my evaluation of the research data. The Schofield was obsolete primarily due to NO parts being available after about 1890.

Where as the Colt lightning remained a viable Field revolver due to factory original internal "PARTS" still being manufactured likely until about 1919....So at least some Colt lightnings definitely were surrendered to the American Railway Express Co in 1918.

Had the Schofield been manufactured beyond 1900? The results would have been much different and records would most definitely be available from several sources including the Smith & Wesson factory I'm sure! I honestly don't know why the Schofield line was terminated so early. There was definitely public interest in the shorter barrel version. Makes little sense to me personally. I think it would have sold to the public and would have been a viable competitor to the Colt SAA. It probably had something to do with the royalty going to Schofield per gun sold?

Murph

 

[BMur]

Records Part 2

Well,
It seems Wells Fargo Historical Department isn't interested in Smith & Wesson Schofield History.
I'll update the forum if they ever answer one on one. So far I'm only getting automated responses. Been trying for almost 3 weeks. I do honestly suspect that there are fragmental records that do exist. Likely they are in collections and small town museums and would take a lifetime to find and document.
One thing is certain. The old documents are valuable. Any surviving document that has Wells Fargo or American Express on the top of the document is worth money.

Anyway, since the information is now trickling in I'm moving on to more productive research. Overall very productive stuff though. I learned a lot and documented a ton.

I just wanted to input a few final comments regarding the survey results;

I firmly believe based on the information found that there were a lot more Schofield Surplus revolvers purchased by both Wells Fargo and American Express than we might have believed.

If we look at the multiple contracts from the early 1890's to early 1900's we can verify over 5000 revolvers purchased by American Express alone!

So I firmly believe that at least a couple thousand Schofields were purchased split between Wells Fargo and American Express Co in the early 1880's. They followed the same pattern of purchasing for decades! Same exact guns!

Also, if we have an open mind and consider that when these Wells Fargo Schofields went to Surplus from the Express Agencys? Many of the Property markings were removed. I documented several in my survey. It makes perfect sense. Whether removed prior to sale by the Express company or by the Civilian buyer who didn't want that property stamp on "their" firearm to avoid accusation of theft!

Then we plug in a collector 140 years later who can't help but attempt to re-apply the property stamp to increase the value of their antique revolver? You have yourself a huge mess of guns that were likely Express Guns originally but have seen the file and die stamp more than once.


Murph

 

[BMur]

Final Comment

When I look at all my research notes and talley the numbers?

I have almost 100 Schofields/American Express examples documented without much effort.

However, the known contracts of 1700 and 2000 guns of the 1890's? I have less than 30 documented of each known and proven contract!


That alone should tell us something about how many Early Schofields were Wells Fargo guns and American Express guns.

Several Thousand!!!! They are definitely NOT Rare! but very historic.


Murph

 

[model3sw]

Very disappointing !

Murph,

While I admire how voraciously you've been researching, I sit here with my head in my hands shaking my head in disbelief. I have so much to say about this entire thread, I wouldn't finish until tomorrow morning so I'll just touch on some of the stuff that seems a little "over enthusiastic".

Remember, we should not take more hearsay, embellish it, add to it and pass it on ... that is the job of the Texans who smile when they say "it you can't make a story better, you have no business telling it."

I would like to believe some of this "research" is factual. It's a strict matter of where, when, whom and what evidence you have to back up this research before it is factual (not true, but factual). A "truth" is only that which someone believes is "true". Like " I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" ... the truth being the teller's belief, far amputated from "fact".

You wrote: (START QUOTE) When I look at all my research notes and talley the numbers?

I have almost 100 Schofields/American Express examples documented without much effort.

However, the known contracts of 1700 and 2000 guns of the 1890's? I have less than 30 documented of each known and proven contract!


That alone should tell us something about how many Early Schofields were Wells Fargo guns and American Express guns.

Several Thousand!!!! They are definitely NOT Rare! but very historic.

Murph (end QUOTE)

WHERE did you get the data to back up the above statements. Seems here you're making an awful lot of "assumptions" here.

SEVERAL THOUSAND Schofields were Wells Fargo and American Express guns" ?????? S&W only produced "several thousand".

Up until the mid 1990s, Schofields with any added marking or stamping, whenever you can find them were few and far between. This is a FACT from attending Nationwide gun shows, like Tulsa, Las Vegas, Texas, Baltimore and many more cities on a regular basis for over 15 years when I actively did the show circuit but 40+ years in total, with the help and comparative records of many serious old time Model 3 and Schofield collectors. The Schofield was a nothing gun before Clint Eastwood made "Unforgiven". The Schofield collectors had a few or several but that was it. It wasn't a "gotta have" S&W gun. The "gotta have" gun was the U.S. Cavalry Model 3, 1st issue. That is when I first made contact with Col. Charles Pate to report to him any new discoveries of U.S. Americans that I found. I remember calling him with a serial number from the Tulsa show (appx year 2000) where Col Pate informed me (IIRC) this new number I gave him was #53 of 1000 accounted for on the survivors list .. and it had a hack-sawed off barrel and in just horrible shape.

When I write a crash homicide report for my clients, which will almost always end up as evidence in a court of law, I have ALL my evidence well documented and attached.

Dad used to say, believe HALF of what you see, and a quarter of what you hear. Chop that in half and somewhere in there you'll have a story that will begin to make some sort of sense (minimally) or it's a complete crock.

I believe NOBODY ! Or more like I'm from Missouri .... SHOW ME !!! If I cannot prove it out for myself, I consider it all hearsay (nice way of saying baloney).

Add SPECIFIC, VERY SPECIFIC, sources to your statements, finding and research. If you cannot produce a document (or other hard evidence) that will pass muster ... you cannot report it as factual research.

SEVERAL THOUSAND ??? Come on now Muph ? Hit the brakes and consolidate the hard work and research you've claimed to perform and give it to us ... STRAIGHT !

And what do you do if you cannot put up ?? That's correct !!

Sal Raimondi

PS: You know I like you, but it seems this one got away from you and ran wild. Edit out the hearsay, conjecture, and everything that cannot be SOLIDLY backed up with evidence and give us the raw essence of your hard work, but only that which is from the provable fact.

Remember, almost everything that is printed is not always true and even less often "factual". Excluding, fine research works like Roy Jinks, Robert Neal, Charles Pate, Roy Double, Ed Cornett, C.B. Wilson, Jim Supica, Richard Nahas, Walter Roper, A.L.A. Himmelwright, and a handful of the rest of the old timers (James Redfield and the bunch I usually banter with) that were in this when there was no money to be made in it but rather just for the love of it.

 

[BMur]

Accurate Research

Thanks Sal,
I appreciate All of your input.

I think we might not be excepting The Historical Departments clear statement : "The Model 3 Schofield was sold as government Surplus Arms in Early 1880".

Total production listed as 8969. That's a lot of surplus!

The data that I have collected supports that the Bulk of this number was sold as surplus in Early 1880. In other words, I support the Historical Departments conclusion.

The Enormous need for Firearms from the various Express Companies is documented. Not estimated. It's not a guess or hearsay. Numbers don't lie. They are what they are backed up by other researched data involving cross referencing that I firmly support as accurate.

Unless we are questioning factory records? I certainly am not. I am only adding to that information based on data collected from multiple sources.

This is not my first project in 30 plus years Sal. I do have quite a bit of experience in detailed firearms research. I try to make an honest effort to eliminate opinion from data posted and when I do include opinion? I clearly state that "in my opinion". Otherwise I am simply recording and posting data found. It's up to the forum as individuals regarding what they in fact believe.

I've also done the rounds of gun shows over the last several decades ( that means over 3 to me). Several to me means over the number 3. However if you look up the definition? Several means over 2. That's not my opinion or hearsay. It's the dictionary that I'm quoting.

So several thousand to me means over 3000 in reference to the Wells Fargo/American Express Schofields. That's actually very likely a low estimate.

If we are trying to plug in "Altered" guns into the legitimate mix? I don't think that there is anyone actually qualified to make that determination. Since there are ZERO records to go on "everything" about the Property stamps on the Schofields is a guess. I don't like going there. That "IS" hearsay!

The only actual data that I am aware of is your Wells Fargo Schofield that is factory documented as returned to the factory in 1945 already having "Wells Fargo markings on the barrel".....That is huge. It's not hearsay. That firmly supports that specific stamp. The stamp is unique. We have discussed that before. However the several other stamps????? Pure hearsay....I don't like going there.

So to me they are simply "not proven" I would never call them FAKE or altered simply because I have ZERO data to back that statement up. That's why I did not mention them except for a comparison in Property stamp transitions that I recorded. I stand behind that data that I recorded also.
However, I have ZERO data on authenticating the Property Stamps.

Honestly, I have thought about this subject for many hours. I also like the subject of dies and stamps and have studied them in depth over the years. Unless we can obtain recorded material from a factory returned gun like yours only having another type stamp? I honestly don't know how we will ever authenticate them. I actually have seen them...There is one on auction right now that shows a factory return star on the butt and has another type Property Stamp. I believe it's Property stamp number 1185.....Also matches serial number....that one needs a letter but I'm not going to spend the $6000 for the gun....

Maybe one of the advanced members can ask Mr. Jinks about that one and see if there is information about the return in the factory records? It's on auction on gunbroker now if anyone wants to take a look at it.



Murph

 

[BMur]

Comprehending Data posted

I think I understand where you are coming from now Sal.

You are not comprehending my data?

Ok, I'm trying to streamline without generating a 10 page post. That's the concept.

The Contracts of 1700 guns and 2000 guns are easily interpreted if you understand the data.

The Schofields had property numbers on the barrel that matched the serial number. That was an 1880's method used by the Express companies that ended about 1891.That was the last one I recorded from American Express Co. Other Express Companies used that early method into the early 1890's like USX/USEX etc. So it's not possible to determine the total number of guns in those early contracts without direct access to factory records. However, with the amount that I found? Those contracts were large also.

HOWEVER!!!

The Smith & Wesson 38 Topbreaks in the Model 3&4 as an example(1700 gun contract)?

This was the 1890's method of property stamps and numbers that began on the back strap with Am.EX.Co. 1 The 1 represents the 1st gun of that contract..... The last gun in the contract had Am. Ex. Co. 1700 (approximately)…

How do we come to this conclusion? Well.....Am. Ex. Co. 1 is lettered to the year 1892...….add several factory letters and increasing property numbers in between to continue the increasing number sequence until the end of the contract.
Example

Am. Ex. Co 150 Year 1894
Am. Ex. Co 229 Year 1895
Am. Ex. Co 317 Year 1896
Am. Ex. Co 402 Year 1897

All backed by factory letters dating the shipment in the listed years and you can see the clear property number sequence increasing as we progress through the years until the end of the contract in 1905 with a total of approximately 1700 guns. The property number represents the number manufactured in order starting in the year 1892 and ending in 1905. Totaling 1700 guns. If you look in reference books? They claim approximately 1000 but my data clarifies the number total to be 1700 +/- 100. I can't make it more clear than that. I have copies of all the factory letters backing this up.

The exact same sequence was used for the Colt lighting contract that began in about 1892 and ended in 1909 with 2000 guns total in that contract. Starting with Property number 1 on the backstrap and continuing sequentially backed by factory letters showing dates and numbers of guns shipped etc until number 2000 in the year 1908 representing the end of the contract. Once again, I have all the factory letters backing this up. With the lightnings however I also have serial number reference where I don't have a letter that confirms year of manufacture. Also proving a sequence to the Property numbers on the backstrap just ahead of the Property stamp.

The Smith & Wesson 38's also show increasing serial numbers associated with the increasing Property number stamped on the backstrap. ALL very consistent Data and takes us in one direction only.

That's about as clear as I can make it without writing a several page article that includes photo's of factory letters, dates, who received the guns, who ordered the guns etc. I'm not going to do that> I'm sharing information and data. My book writing days are likely over.

Murph

 

[model3sw]

Murph, put the .38s aside for now and let's get back to the OPs topic of "authenticating" a Wells Fargo Schofield. STOP right there, WELLS FARGO SCHOFIELD. No others.

How did you get from the original question of:
BEGIN QUOTE: "Is there anyone who will authenticate a Wells Fargo stamped 1st Model Schofield. Plenty of posts out there but at the end of the day it would be good to have the example that has come into my possession to get a thorough review by an expert. Any contact info appreciated if available." END QUOTE

to hijack the OPs thread, yet not respond with a valid response.

Is there truly anyone that is a Schofield and / or Schofield Wells Fargo "expert". I think not as "expert" would infer infallibility in addition to 140+ years of time, in between. Time in which ANYTHING could have happened or been done or modified ... or ... faked.

Those who study certain models seriously, constantly compare notes and findings as Ed Cornett and Charles Pate have done for me and what pittance of a help I could be to them by supplying a fraction of what could be deemed valid input or findings, to them.

The best possible response, in letter format, backed by a knowledgeable collector / historian or aspiring historian can write is a comparative to other known issues that have been proven to "likely" be correct.

Plain common sense mandates that there could not have been just "one" authentic, period, W.F & Co or Cos. stamp. Further, God knows how many fake stamps are out there ? Most fake stamps seem to be "questionable" while other fake stamps can be quite impressive. It all depends on how much the maker and / or seller of the fake invests his time and efforts to disguise or modify a non WF to appear as a genuine WF.

This entire thread is just too grandiose for me to sit down to try to comprehend. Perhaps I could better comprehend it all your research data and connections were notated or footnoted.

Where you give reference it seems you do so in the broadest sense of the word.

Please identify (and give credit to identify) the exact source of your data ? You say S&W Historical Foundation ... how many letters have you in your possession (either in tangible or digital format) from S&WHF on this specific topic ?

Now ... the 38s. You wrote:

QUOTE BEGINS: >>> How do we come to this conclusion? Well.....Am. Ex. Co. 1 is lettered to the year 1892...….add several factory letters and increasing property numbers in between to continue the increasing number sequence until the end of the contract.
Example

Am. Ex. Co 150 Year 1894
Am. Ex. Co 229 Year 1895
Am. Ex. Co 317 Year 1896
Am. Ex. Co 402 Year 1897

***** All backed by factory letters dating the shipment in the listed years and you can see the clear property number sequence increasing as we progress through the years until the end of the contract in 1905 with a total of approximately 1700 guns. ****** The property number represents the number manufactured in order starting in the year 1892 and ending in 1905. Totaling 1700 guns. If you look in reference books? They claim approximately 1000 but my data clarifies the number total to be 1700 +/- 100. I can't make it more clear than that. I have copies of all the factory letters backing this up.

>>>> END QUOTE

You have 1700 letters in either tangible or digital format ?

Forgive me ... It is extremely difficult to even TRY to believe that even bonafide historians and authors have even seen anything near 1700 letters.

I think you're taking an immense amount of artistic license here. The liberty of your thoughts and surmises may be with the truest intention but it is just not believable. Historians write only facts with hard evidence to back their findings.

Please exhibit and / or specifically reference these 1700 letters you have and whatever other reference material you've used, condensed, combined, expanded or write that they exist.

Again, nothing personal. I think your ambition is commendable, however, without referencing each and every source of research data ... it is just too fantastic to believe.

Further, it is NOT for "you" to interpret. It is the duty of any historian or aspiring historian to present only the facts and hard evidence, without any trace of sentiment or opinion.

Opinions are like (a word I cannot type here but it refers to a certain part of the human anatomy). EVERYBODY has one and none of them ever smell good.

For an "opinion" to be taken seriously it has to be backed by good hard evidence and fact ... not merely the mention that this evidence exists but to provide that evidence in unredacted format for the reader to formulate his/her own thoughts on the subject(s).

When first I saw your posts going a bit wild ... I figured I'd shut up until the rant was over. But it kept going and going and going with little input from anyone else. Do you realize that posts 38 to 43 are only YOURS, with no questions or input from anyone else.

It seems when no one replied to your long posts of assumptions and beliefs, the story grew with every next post of yours.

I am not an "expert", just a fairly experienced, well studied and knowledgeable collector. And you, my friend, are NOT an expert either. You cannot make statements like ... "How do we come to this conclusion?" (the only we is you).

AND ... yes, ALL the entries in the Blue Book of Gun Values under Schofield and many other models are completely of my authorship. Some other models I had modified and / or amended what was there in 1993 but the Schofield and several other model S&Ws are all mine, as is the majority of the entries on the pre-39, 39, 39-2 (when I started in 1994 there was only 39-2 listed), the 52A is all of my authorship. The New Model 3 Target .44 entry is also mine.

or: The Enormous need for Firearms from the various Express Companies is documented. Not estimated. It's not a guess or hearsay. Numbers don't lie. They are what they are backed up by other researched data involving cross referencing that I firmly support as accurate.

or: Also, if we have an open mind and consider that when these Wells Fargo Schofields went to Surplus from the Express Agencys? Many of the Property markings were removed. I documented several in my survey. It makes perfect sense. Whether removed prior to sale by the Express company or by the Civilian buyer who didn't want that property stamp on "their" firearm to avoid accusation of theft!

NOTE: I have NEVER noticed or seen evidence of removed property stamp(s) on a Schofield. And, a bill of sale (surplus sale) or just that fact that it was near or over 20 years old at the time, (likely deemed antiquated at the advent of the hand ejectors) would eliminate any thoughts of gun being stolen. The first theoretic issue an owner would may have needed to overcome is the U.S. markings on the gun. Stealing from the U.S. Govt is no small issue but surely not a worry 20 years+ after put out of service.

 

[BMur]

Checking out

I'll let you handle it From here Sal. 1700 factory letters required? That's just ridiculous!

Murph

 

[model3sw]

I'll let you handle it From here Sal. 1700 factory letters required? That's just ridiculous!

Murph

YOU stated there were 1700 letters of which I am in disbelief, thus, I am asking you to "put up".

You know that old phrase, either put up or ...

 

[BMur]

Re-read my post

I made no mention of having 1700 factory letters in my possession. I'm sure you know of many collectors that do? Again an exaggeration of the term several? Now several equals 1700???

That's ridiculous Sal. Come on now!

How about instead of name dropping and trash talking, and wrench throwing?
You present some actual data that you have collected for the benefit of the forum. No yarns allowed!!

Your turn Sal
I'm atta here!

Murph

 

[model3sw]

I made no mention of having 1700 factory letters in my possession. I'm sure you know of many collectors that do?

That's ridiculous Sal. Come on now!

How about instead of name dropping and trash talking?
You present some actual data that you have collected for the benefit of the forum. No yarns allowed!!

Murph

You wrote you HAD 1700 letters:

QUOTE >>> All backed by factory letters dating the shipment in the listed years and you can see the clear property number sequence increasing as we progress through the years until the end of the contract in 1905 with a total of approximately 1700 guns. The property number represents the number manufactured in order starting in the year 1892 and ending in 1905. Totaling 1700 guns. If you look in reference books? They claim approximately 1000 but my data clarifies the number total to be 1700 +/- 100. I can't make it more clear than that. >>>>>>> I have copies of all the factory letters backing this up. >>> END QUOTE


This isn't my show. You made statements and incremental reports of your findings, so, providing the origin and evidence is all your responsibility.

Giving specific reference is a matter of proving that reference by stating fact in place of fiction, nothing else.

PEACE, OUT !

 

[BMur]

Read my post without editing

Sal,
Take a deep breath and re-read my post. Sectional editing is a form of concealing.
I said I have "several" factory letters.
Then I followed up with 4 examples that are All backed up with factory letters.
You really know how to twist a post into a sensational edit.

I actually have more than 4 letters. The 4 examples were just that. "Examples"

It's your turn to post some data Sal. Do I get to edit your posts?

Murph

 

[model3sw]

Sal,
Take a deep breath and re-read my post. Sectional editing is a form of concealing.
I said I have "several" factory letters.
Then I followed up with 4 examples that are All backed up with factory letters.
You really know how to twist a post into a sensational edit.

I actually have more than 4 letters. The 4 examples were just that. "Examples"

It's your turn to post some data Sal. Do I get to edit your posts?

Murph

When in doubt, trust Snoopy.

 

[BMur]

Fakes, Forgeries, Restorations?

I've been thinking about this subject and initially wanted to dodge it but since we are collectors and might run into a Wells Fargo Schofield that we might be interested in purchasing to add to our collection? Especially if the price is way low? I suppose we should really touch bases on this very "Sensitive" subject.

This will be my last post on the Wells Fargo/American Express Schofield. Unless more data/ information comes in that is proven.

Some say that the Wells Fargo Schofield is one of the most "Faked" Antiques out there. I'm not sure that I agree. My data strongly suggests that Several thousand of them were altered to 5" barrels and poorly hand stamped very quickly and with very "little care" given to placing the markings uniformly on the barrel. This position also backs up that many went to Surplus "Quickly", in bulk, and in the early 1880's.

I've documented markings where the Property Stamp is in the front, back, over, under, in the Schofield patent stamp, in the groove of the barrel, etc. and they all look legit to me. Backed up by a machined and beat up muzzle crown and barrel length that measures the correct length in my survey!

See photo's of just two examples where the stamp has been "IN MY OPINION" removed and restored. Notice the "CLEAR" grind marks in the exact location of where the stamp is normally found? Also the existing stamp that looks "real" and authentic to me! But "MAY HAVE" been re-applied at some point.

We have to be very careful with our use of the terms "FAKE" or "Forgery" when we trash talk antiques without any data to back it up. This is absolutely the case with the Wells Fargo/ American Express Schofields. You might actually be trash talking an original Wells Fargo Schofield that has significant value on the open market.

Restorations are the "FINE LINE" that we often walk when any form of restoration is involved. Refinish? Non original parts installed? Newer or non matching grips? Or perhaps a weld or two?

Often it's all about perception. If you can't tell? It's orginal! That is often the position of many collectors and often market value "backs this up"!

With the data that I have collected I do believe that many of the Well's Fargo and American Express Schofields original "Property Stamps" were "PURPOSELY" removed and at some point "RE-APPLIED"...(The removal of Property Stamps is documented during that period by various agencies that directly involves the elimination of liability and accusation if the gun is used in a crime) It's up to you as a collector what you want to title it? Restoration? Fake? Forgery? One thing is certain though.....It's very possible that what you may see as non original? is still an authentic Wells Fargo or American Express Schofield. As is the case with both of the photo'd Schofields in this post. My data supports that they "ARE" original. The Property stamps? No DATA available!


Murph

 

[gmborkovic]

I have been reading this Thread with great interest. In my youth I had two that were stamped and nickel plated. I sold them both at the old Balto show at the 5th Reg. Armory. I think Ogan or Chernoff bought them. Were they correct, no idea. I just needed cash for a Corvette engine rebuild. It was more than enough for the engine work and a few cases of beer. Mike

 

[Schof45]

A lot of very interesting information in this thread and I have enjoyed every word of it.
Murph here is a picture of one of my WFs where the property marking has been removed leaving ground marks. Please use it in your research if you wish.

 

[BMur]

Most common found method

Hey Petter,
Thanks for posting that photo. I recorded it in my data. *** Could you also please post a photo of the muzzle crown and also convey the exact barrel length? Thank you.
This is exactly the most common type that I recorded. The Property stamp is wiped out but the number remains. Most often the Schofield patent stamp suffers also from the intentional removal by the Express Company. It does make perfect sense when we have an open mind to the data.

You know over the years of watching auctions at large auction houses? Often you will notice an antique is listed as "Partially restored" or serial number "re-applied" or markings refreshed? etc..... What amazes me is that this "Honest" appraisal seems to generate a much higher appreciation for the antique in question. The sale price and ultimate value jumps up significantly! Almost as though the "restoration" is now excepted. Often I have been amazed at the price realized! We should start considering this position with the Schofields!

This is also true of Property stamps being removed. My primary "researched" example is the Baltimore Police Baby Russian. Where most have had the Property Stamp purposely removed by the Police Department. Yet the value is still very high on the open Market. As it should be!

I'm guilty of using the F' word many times (Fake, Forgery) but I pride myself as having an "OPEN MIND" to data and education. I will Henceforth avoid using the F' word in the future regarding the Schofield Wells Fargo and also just as important is the American Express Schofield Examples...They are legit! and hard to find.
I have documented several in this study and they fit perfectly both in Property stamp type, period of use, and matching barrel length/muzzle crown with the Wells Fargo examples.
When rarely found by collectors? I believe that they also often suffer from poor evaluations. I believe the reason they are rare today is also due to the Property Stamps purposely removed from the backstrap by the Express Company prior to sale as Surplus. So when found with the markings removed? It basically is evaluated as a "cut barrel" Schofield! When we should be taking a "VERY CLOSE" look at that backstrap!
We need to document those just as much as the Wells Fargo examples so we can establish an authenticating pattern to the stamps!

I also was very skeptical of those over the years. I actually have a Colt lightning with the early type Am.Ex.Co. stamp. I got it cheap but never took the time to research the stamp. This study helped clear the air about that antique and I'm now convinced the stamp is original, based on the data collected in this survey, the type and size of the die stamps, and the year the gun was manufactured. Just happens to be the mid 1880's which is right on the money for the early type stamps.

That really is what it's all about. Collecting and compiling information. So in my opinion, We need to stop using the F' word since it's destroying honest value on often legitimate examples.


Murph

 

[model3sw]

Removed by Railway Company or someone other ?

A lot of very interesting information in this thread and I have enjoyed every word of it.
Murph here is a picture of one of my WFs where the property marking has been removed leaving ground marks. Please use it in your research if you wish.

Petter, Here is a Schofield with number stamped on barrel similar to Wells Fargo Style, and yet "something" was milled / machined off, in the area before that number, likely the "W.F & Ex Co".

THIS IS THE FIRST ONE with removed markings (apparently intentionally removed marking), I have ever seen.

Also, the finish or refinish "appears" clean enough to also have been done more recently than 1890-1900-ish.

A valid point of conjecture here: There is no way to determine "when" the grinding was performed, however, the removal and the grinding of that area "appears" as if the grind out is fresher, cleaner and more recently
worked" than the 120+ years as attested to earlier in this thread that Railway Cos removed the property marks when out of service.

Likely it is a 5", Correct ? Any markings under the stocks. I'd like to examine the your full photo shoot on this one for legitimate input and intelligent discussion of just about "when" the grinding/machine work was performed and / or if refinished again after surplus sale and appx "when".

Reasoning presented prior is that the Express companies removed the markings (stating that many or all property markings were removed by Express Cos).

This may have also, and probably more likely, been a WF & Co floating around between 1950s to 1980s when non-WF marked Schofields were worth MORE than the Wells Fargo marked.

The most unsettling observation is the haphazard manner the imprint was ground off. Machine marks hint the grinding was likely not done by a master machinist.

Although it is only one sectional photo, it is good quality. Let's see the rest to determine if it may prove more realistically reasonable that the imprint was removed sometime way, way after the Express Companies, possibly by an unscrupulous seller to suggest that perhaps it was NOT a Wells Fargo gun, while explaining away why the SN ( 1611 ) was stamped on the outside of the barrel.

Not much historical and / or research in print 40 to 70 years ago. Few, if any, really knew what an "authentic" Wells Fargo contained or did not contain as compared to the U.S. (when issued new) model. Now, (current times), it is known that front SN, stamped on the gun barrel (the one in line with a W.F. marking) but seems logical he could not grind out the front number as it is so deep. Seems any attempt at grinding out the front SN would further and more completely ruined the gun. Also, is there logical reasoning one could suggest as to "why" there would be a huge ground out gouge where the SN ( 1611 ) number is (or would have been).

Sal Raimondi

 

[BMur]

Removed Property Stamps

Revisiting one of several that I recorded. See photo pointing at area where Property Stamp is normally found now has deep grind cavity. Also you will notice that it was clearly re-nickeled at some point "after"the marking was removed. No way to prove when this was done but that grind " Cavity" certainly looks "very old" to me.

WellsFargo was an enormous company that covered multiple countries by 1890. These Schofields would have been issued everywhere they were needed. Assuming that the markings found were in many cases removed by order of the company prior to being sold and replaced with newer weapons? There would likely be no uniformity to the removal since the coverage area was World wide! Many would have escaped the grind off order which is exactly what we are seeing. More data collecting is needed. But honestly, even today there is no uniformity to operations from one office to the next. There are NO absolutes in this study! But enough data has been gathered to support that at least " Some" of the Property Stamps were purposely removed after end of use.

** I do plan on pursuing information from many Wells Fargo Historical offices throughout the country but the offices are closed now so the research is at a stand still until this virus issue blows over.

Murph

 

[gmborkovic]

A fascinating Thread. If and when Gun Shows are allowed down here in Fl., Im going to keep an eye out for old grounded up Schofields.