Were polymer frames the death of the 3rd Gen?

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Bourne3198

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So I've just bought my second all steel S&W (4506 and 4586 now). I've never seen the official line from S&W about why they stopped making them. Parts and holsters are getting hard to find.

Considering the interest and price of them on auction sites (and here on this site, but we may be biased), and some major agencies like Cal Highway Patrol and the RCMP issuing them, what's the deal? Was it the popularity of the plastic gun?
 
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Glock changed the game and a made a product that was better than it should have been. Lower cost materials combined with lower labor costs in a package that is decently made, accurate, reliable, and relatively inexpensive to the consumer created a juggernaut that the competition had to meet, or die. I'm not a fan of plastic guns, but they're here to stay.
 
I wonder what the MSRP would be on 3rd Gen. Smiths if they were still produced? I bet that has a lot to do with it.
 
I agree with all the above points. Also, in the last 10-15 years, leaps and bounds have been made in CCW laws. A smaller, lighter polymer handgun is easier for most people to carry than a 3rd gen. Smith.
 
Corporate profits and greed killed the 3rd Gens.

I'm impressed with Sig Sauers determination to stay away from plastic and polymer frames just for the sake of profit in their pistols.
 
kcode said:
Corporate profits and greed killed the 3rd Gens.

I'm impressed with Sig Sauers determination to stay away from plastic and polymer frames just for the sake of profit in their pistols.
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^This

Plus an easily influenced and ignorant public.

Note though the brisk sales of all manner of metal 1911's and Hi-Powers; as well as the metal SIGS and Beretta's, and you realize S&W is just doubling down on the polymer/striker guns in the Smith vs. Glock wars.
 
They need to make them in limited numbers as part of their Classic Line, a la Model 10 revolvers. I'll be they could charge a ton for them. I'd pay a premium for a brand new 4586, rather than my 12 year old police trade-in.
 
I own an M&P and carry a Glock because my agency tells me that I have to, so I'm not ignorant to their strengths. But look at a 10 yr old police trade-in Glock, and a trade-in S&W 4566 and tell me which one stood the abuse and test of time better.
 
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VTHokiesDuckHunter said:
^This

Plus an easily influenced and ignorant public.

Note though the brisk sales of all manner of metal 1911's and Hi-Powers; as well as the metal SIGS and Beretta's, and you realize S&W is just doubling down on the polymer/striker guns in the Smith vs. Glock wars.
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FWIW,

When the banners had all the media going in the early part of the year most of the LGS and box stores around me always had pretty basic 1911s and Sigs in stock. But they sold out of polyguns. Kind of surprised me, but after reading some of the posts above, it makes sense- low cost poly guns are lighter and functional. Not to mention poly guns are much less expensive than either a Sig or a 1911. I know there were a lot of first time buyers during that time and I guess the polyguns were more attractive.
 
So since none of us were in the S&W boardroom the day the decision was made, we can just assume, to answer my first question, someone decided that the sales of the steel guns were flat and they were loosing the company money. So they retrained all their staff to pour plastic into a mould and make M&Ps to try and steal some of the Glock market.

I'm not sure it worked. There aren't too many LEO organizations using M&Ps. A few, but they didn't wrestle the market away. I'll bet between the CHP, LAPD, and RCMP, by numbers, more officers are carrying a 3rd Gen in the US and Canada than there are carrying M&Ps.
 
they can mass produce them and make a lot more than metal plus they do hold up quite well. I am not a poly hater per se and own a XDM. They serve their purpose parts are cheaper since there is more of them and they work just as good as a 1-2 grand gun.

This is why they are so popular.

Plus if you fly somewhere and ship a gun to your destination or if you carry a lot and god forbid you have to use your weapon then it will be police impounded and then you are only losing a 300-500 dollar piece instead of a high dollar rare metal framed gun.
 
Bourne3198 said:
So I've just bought my second all steel S&W (4506 and 4586 now). I've never seen the official line from S&W about why they stopped making them. Parts and holsters are getting hard to find.

Considering the interest and price of them on auction sites (and here on this site, but we may be biased), and some major agencies like Cal Highway Patrol and the RCMP issuing them, what's the deal? Was it the popularity of the plastic gun?
Click to expand...

Problem #1 :By the 1990's ,S&W had been continuously making their legacy semi autos for over 40 years.Worse,it showed.The ergonomics of the old school 3rd Gens are why I don't carry one anymore.The old guns are fabulous pieces ,but theyre definitely a product of the fifties and sixties in terms of ergonomics.

Problem #2:The legal environment changed.Tort law in the mid 8os popped up establishing precedent for injured scumbags suing police agencies for damages.A big,mean metal handgun looks deadlier in court then a blocky,black anonymous cube.Since the Glock doesn't have a hammer,no lawyer can say the single action trigger caused "negligence".When a large agency might be sued several times in a year ,that influences what the bosses will approve.And what the cops carry,so will Joe Gunbuyer.

Problem 3 and 4.:Raw materials and labor costs to make metal frame guns have gone up over the years,to the point where S&W just cannot compete against Glock for contracts on a dollar for dollar basis.Because the cost to build a polymer gun is so low,no firm with a metal frame offering can undercut a plastic competitor and still keep a profit.Smith isn't alone in that problem:Sig Sauer brought the SP2022 into production because they kept gettting undercut by the Austrians .That's a problem when many of your public agency customers are legally required to pick the lowest quality bidder.

To a lesser extent,double action to single action guns have fallen victim to time and trends.The in guns nowadays aren't high capacity hammer fired 9mms,but polymer frame bricks named after engine oil weights.Today,the trendy gun is the striker fired 10wTactical.

All is not lost though -some of us do keep the fire burning ,even if we do so off the beaten path.Feel free the chuckle when the 10WTacticals malfunction -I do .
 
Silversmok3, excellent answer. I finally found someone who sounds like they were in that S&W boardroom the day the hammer fell on my favorite piece.
 
i realise plastic compared to all metal is cheaper but i wouldnt call glocks prices cheap by any means.
 
Interesting you should mention "abuse".
It would seem somewhere the learning curve went 90 degrees and the new poly pieces don't require as much maintenance as the older steel or steel/ alloy pieces did. Plus the new wonder finishes that shrug off moisture and all the nasty corrosion causing elements no longer require a daily or at least weekly wipe down.
So yeah the new poly pieces survive better in a world of lazy owners who tend to just shoot and put it away.
Price point be damned, I'd buy new 3rd Gens despite the higher price!
As to the ethos being from the 50s, gee I don't know Silversmok3 but it sure seems a lot of folks find the gentle curve of the ancient 39 very pleasing to their hands. Plus the 3rd Gen did give you the option of either a curved or straight backstrap, not to mention the gobs of aftermarket grips with various grains and textures. Not something capable with the poly pieces. Dale
 
Have you looked at a policeman's utility belt lately? They're carrying a tremendous amount of "stuff" that has to be a real pain to the lower back.

Couple that with the fact that most are not "gun guys" (horror!) and they'll take the weight reduction over the beauty of a 3rd Gen any day.

M&P's and Glocks are both fine hand guns. They're reliable and easy to use. I have a 5906 I will not trade for anything but it's a range gun.
 
I work for a security related company which has over 5000 employees in the US carrying guns. We were slow to move away from revolvers to autos. When we did, we started using the 4006. We switched to the M&P 40 when the price of the stainless steel guns became prohibitive.
 
Price point does matter to large purchasers. We were able to buy everyone new M&P40s and web gear for less money that buying those of us (about 1/2) new 4006s because we couldn't get ammo for our 1006s.

Secondly, the improved egronomics, the abililty to tailor the pistol to the user (grip inserts), lower bore line and same trigger pull all the time improved everyones scores.

I'm gonna throw the BS flag on corporate greed. I expect the profit margin per unit is about the same, taking the lower price and production costs of the poly guns into account. The thing is, if you only sell high buck guns to afficinados, you don't cover expenses and go broke.
 
No to ergonomics, grips can be customized for metal or plastic.

Yes to economics. Greedy corporations. Sign of the times.

Weight no.1, when I arrived in Vietnam, marines were packing the very reliable m14 and hated the jammin plastic m16. The navy followed suit. Wasn't long that fire fighting (1% of the time) took a back seat to packing the extra weight (99% of the time).
 
Badkarma 1 said:
Price point be damned, I'd buy new 3rd Gens despite the higher price!
As to the ethos being from the 50s, gee I don't know Silversmok3 but it sure seems a lot of folks find the gentle curve of the ancient 39 very pleasing to their hands. Plus the 3rd Gen did give you the option of either a curved or straight backstrap, not to mention the gobs of aftermarket grips with various grains and textures. Not something capable with the poly pieces. Dale
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Aftermarket grips can only do so much.The Model 39s grip is darn near perfect-but it's single stack.The double stack Model 59s feel like bricks.

Hold an M&P after a 5906 ,and you'll see right away why the ergos matter.I shot one back to back with a 5903 ,and as much as it guts me to admit it the M&Ps easier to hit with. The more hands that can hold a gun well,the more people Smith can sell them to.

As to a re-issue,that's unlikely for a couple of reasons.One,few shooters are dedicated enough to master the DA pull.Two,it costs more to make a metal handgun.
 
blujax01 said:
Have you looked at a policeman's utility belt lately? They're carrying a tremendous amount of "stuff" that has to be a real pain to the lower back.

Couple that with the fact that most are not "gun guys" (horror!) and they'll take the weight reduction over the beauty of a 3rd Gen any day.

M&P's and Glocks are both fine hand guns. They're reliable and easy to use. I have a 5906 I will not trade for anything but it's a range gun.
Click to expand...

I do several different exercises to keep the strength in my back for just this reason ( and I carry a Sig P229 at work because the bossman says so).

I would carry a 5903 or 4563 at work in a heartbeat if they would let me, though.

Having said that, I'd also carry my Glock 22 and be perfectly happy.

I'm not a one manufacturer only guy. I equally love my Smiths (8 3rd gens and counting) and my Glocks.
 
I well remember when the Glock 17 was gaining a foothold in the Police world. And they were much cheaper than the all metal guns. They were being purchased by under paid cops and underfunded departments.
I think of the first gen magazines that were so scored by the metal catch that they became useless. Every owner talked about torture tests, but you could still squeeze them and they flexed. Their generation had grown up with most everything in their lives having been metal or wood, in the olden days. For them plastic was a natural progression. For older guys striker fired guns were the definition of cheap guns used on Saturday nights. The youngsters did not even notice the missing hammer. These were the days when an officer with a revolver was old fashioned. The days when even I succumbed and bought an auto-loader. (4506) I remember opining that these plastic wonder weapons would improve, as the plastics improved and they would be the overall winner in the Police market. After a few full days and an extra job, the 39 oz alloy Smith did become an anchor. But I trusted it like no gun before it and never bought into the plastic. I believe the plastic frame while never as strong as metal is every bit as good. But it won't be good for near as long. But each generation has less and less trouble parting with what works in trade for what's new. A disposable side arm is no different to them, than an I-Phone. Only collectors care for longevity today.
 
MSRP????

kwselke said:
I wonder what the MSRP would be on 3rd Gen. Smiths if they were still produced? I bet that has a lot to do with it.
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Sadly, it would probably be $900-$1,200...

The Smith regional sales manager told me, plainly, S&W was moving toward cheaper to produce pistols about the time they started phasing out the 3rd Gens and trying to ramp up Sigmas...

Funny thing, though...

I liked the Sigma -- until I shot it. Then I intensely disliked it -- and have never picked up another. But, at the same time, the S&W manager had loaned me his personal 1086 -- for me to shoot against the Sigma and a couple of otherwise acquired Glocks.

I expected to hate the 1086 too -- as DAO autos seemed -- bluntly -- just stupid.

But I shot it -- and tore the target up! I shot that 1086 better than just about anything else I'd ever fired. It was unreal!

Shooting with me was a diehard Hard Glock Cafe armorer. He liked the Sigma ("They're going to clean Glock's clock with this...") -- and found the 1086 fantastic.

After shooting the 1086, in fact, we just stood there gaping at each other in disbelief. I still can't believe how well both of us shot with that pistol...

It was then that the DAO 3rd Gen Smiths became one of my favorite pistols...

(By the way, the Smith rep said Smith would likely produce special runs from time to time. In my opinion, that's the best bet for keeping the 3rd Gen alive. We need to press -- and press hard -- for Smith to do that...)
 
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losingle said:
Weight no.1, when I arrived in Vietnam, marines were packing the very reliable m14 and hated the jammin plastic m16. The navy followed suit. Wasn't long that fire fighting (1% of the time) took a back seat to packing the extra weight (99% of the time).
Click to expand...

Actually, 90% of the people I work with aren't "gun guys" and would do exactly the above. To some, the issued Glock is just an arm rest on their duty belt. If I was Chief and gave the option to carry a 4006, 4586 or a Glock 22, I'm sure they'd pick the lighter gun.
 
Silversmok3 said:
Aftermarket grips can only do so much.The Model 39s grip is darn near perfect-but it's single stack.The double stack Model 59s feel like bricks.

Hold an M&P after a 5906 ,and you'll see right away why the ergos matter.I shot one back to back with a 5903 ,and as much as it guts me to admit it the M&Ps easier to hit with. The more hands that can hold a gun well,the more people Smith can sell them to.

As to a re-issue,that's unlikely for a couple of reasons.One,few shooters are dedicated enough to master the DA pull.Two,it costs more to make a metal handgun.
Click to expand...

I've done just that, M&P9 and my ancient 5946 same trigger pull for each (although the M&P was lighter yet stagey) accuracy was commendable for the new kid (just released M&P9 at the time) and yet the old timer gave me one ragged hole at 15 yards.
As for the single stack thing, you full well that single stack nines are all the rage amongst CCW folk. And it's not so much the length of the pistol but its girth that's the problem to hide. You can hide a flat gun and handle better than a fat one.

And yes I've noticed the over burdened police officer, holster, sidearm, two-three sets of cuffs, up too three cel phones, a portable, three spare mags, a baton, two to three pair of blue safety gloves for pat downs as well as suspenders to keep everything up.
Yet I have to ask, is the polymer pistol that much lighter than an alloy framed one? Well for me, they're about the same. I've replaced my G19 with a Smith 457, its about the same weight loaded compared with the 19, but a lot thinner. Sure I gave up 15 rounds of 9mm, but I have 7 of .45 plus two reloads instead of one.
Also reading some if the past posts on this and other forums, it seems a lot of shooters and carriers are rediscovering these older pieces and liking them! Plus the problems surfacing with the new pieces is out there too.
Dale
 
Badkarma 1 said:
I've done just that, M&P9 and my ancient 5946 same trigger pull for each (although the M&P was lighter yet stagey) accuracy was commendable for the new kid (just released M&P9 at the time) and yet the old timer gave me one ragged hole at 15 yards.
As for the single stack thing, you full well that single stack nines are all the rage amongst CCW folk. And it's not so much the length of the pistol but its girth that's the problem to hide. You can hide a flat gun and handle better than a fat one.

And yes I've noticed the over burdened police officer, holster, sidearm, two-three sets of cuffs, up too three cel phones, a portable, three spare mags, a baton, two to three pair of blue safety gloves for pat downs as well as suspenders to keep everything up.
Yet I have to ask, is the polymer pistol that much lighter than an alloy framed one? Well for me, they're about the same. I've replaced my G19 with a Smith 457, its about the same weight loaded compared with the 19, but a lot thinner. Sure I gave up 15 rounds of 9mm, but I have 7 of .45 plus two reloads instead of one.
Also reading some if the past posts on this and other forums, it seems a lot of shooters and carriers are rediscovering these older pieces and liking them! Plus the problems surfacing with the new pieces is out there too.
Dale
Click to expand...

Dale,you and I are NOT representatitve of the typical police officer and gun owner.

While we would love to say that every person who walks onto a LE qualifying range is a gun person,that's simply not the case.Many police department brass-like the NYPD- are more concerned about liability suits from dead suspects' relatives then their officers making it home at night.If the department in question barely trains their officers due to money or politics, I know which gun they'll do better with-and it won't be the old girl,I'm pained to say.Qualification scores among uninterested officers improve with striker fired weapons for a reason-they don't take as many rounds to learn.
 
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