Were polymer frames the death of the 3rd Gen?

[Bourne3198]

So I've just bought my second all steel S&W (4506 and 4586 now). I've never seen the official line from S&W about why they stopped making them. Parts and holsters are getting hard to find.

Considering the interest and price of them on auction sites (and here on this site, but we may be biased), and some major agencies like Cal Highway Patrol and the RCMP issuing them, what's the deal? Was it the popularity of the plastic gun?

 

[TAROMAN]

And the cheapness of the plastic gun to produce.
And the marketing of plastic guns.
And the profit from the above.

 

[sodacan]

Glock changed the game and a made a product that was better than it should have been. Lower cost materials combined with lower labor costs in a package that is decently made, accurate, reliable, and relatively inexpensive to the consumer created a juggernaut that the competition had to meet, or die. I'm not a fan of plastic guns, but they're here to stay.

 

[kwselke]

I wonder what the MSRP would be on 3rd Gen. Smiths if they were still produced? I bet that has a lot to do with it.

 

[at10]

I agree with all the above points. Also, in the last 10-15 years, leaps and bounds have been made in CCW laws. A smaller, lighter polymer handgun is easier for most people to carry than a 3rd gen. Smith.

 

[vigil617]

Reports of the death of Third Gen Smiths have been greatly exaggerated.

One look at this part of the Forum should provide the proof you need.

Long live the King!

 

[kcode]

Corporate profits and greed killed the 3rd Gens.

I'm impressed with Sig Sauers determination to stay away from plastic and polymer frames just for the sake of profit in their pistols.

 

[VTHokiesDuckHunter]

Corporate profits and greed killed the 3rd Gens.

I'm impressed with Sig Sauers determination to stay away from plastic and polymer frames just for the sake of profit in their pistols.

^This

Plus an easily influenced and ignorant public.

Note though the brisk sales of all manner of metal 1911's and Hi-Powers; as well as the metal SIGS and Beretta's, and you realize S&W is just doubling down on the polymer/striker guns in the Smith vs. Glock wars.

 

[SMSgt]

For more than just the 3rd Gens...

 

[Bourne3198]

They need to make them in limited numbers as part of their Classic Line, a la Model 10 revolvers. I'll be they could charge a ton for them. I'd pay a premium for a brand new 4586, rather than my 12 year old police trade-in.

 

[Bourne3198]

I own an M&P and carry a Glock because my agency tells me that I have to, so I'm not ignorant to their strengths. But look at a 10 yr old police trade-in Glock, and a trade-in S&W 4566 and tell me which one stood the abuse and test of time better.

 

[spad124]

^This

Plus an easily influenced and ignorant public.

Note though the brisk sales of all manner of metal 1911's and Hi-Powers; as well as the metal SIGS and Beretta's, and you realize S&W is just doubling down on the polymer/striker guns in the Smith vs. Glock wars.

FWIW,

When the banners had all the media going in the early part of the year most of the LGS and box stores around me always had pretty basic 1911s and Sigs in stock. But they sold out of polyguns. Kind of surprised me, but after reading some of the posts above, it makes sense- low cost poly guns are lighter and functional. Not to mention poly guns are much less expensive than either a Sig or a 1911. I know there were a lot of first time buyers during that time and I guess the polyguns were more attractive.

 

[Bourne3198]

So since none of us were in the S&W boardroom the day the decision was made, we can just assume, to answer my first question, someone decided that the sales of the steel guns were flat and they were loosing the company money. So they retrained all their staff to pour plastic into a mould and make M&Ps to try and steal some of the Glock market.

I'm not sure it worked. There aren't too many LEO organizations using M&Ps. A few, but they didn't wrestle the market away. I'll bet between the CHP, LAPD, and RCMP, by numbers, more officers are carrying a 3rd Gen in the US and Canada than there are carrying M&Ps.

 

[James&theGiant1911]

they can mass produce them and make a lot more than metal plus they do hold up quite well. I am not a poly hater per se and own a XDM. They serve their purpose parts are cheaper since there is more of them and they work just as good as a 1-2 grand gun.

This is why they are so popular.

Plus if you fly somewhere and ship a gun to your destination or if you carry a lot and god forbid you have to use your weapon then it will be police impounded and then you are only losing a 300-500 dollar piece instead of a high dollar rare metal framed gun.

 

[Silversmok3]

So I've just bought my second all steel S&W (4506 and 4586 now). I've never seen the official line from S&W about why they stopped making them. Parts and holsters are getting hard to find.

Considering the interest and price of them on auction sites (and here on this site, but we may be biased), and some major agencies like Cal Highway Patrol and the RCMP issuing them, what's the deal? Was it the popularity of the plastic gun?

Problem #1 :By the 1990's ,S&W had been continuously making their legacy semi autos for over 40 years.Worse,it showed.The ergonomics of the old school 3rd Gens are why I don't carry one anymore.The old guns are fabulous pieces ,but theyre definitely a product of the fifties and sixties in terms of ergonomics.

Problem #2:The legal environment changed.Tort law in the mid 8os popped up establishing precedent for injured scumbags suing police agencies for damages.A big,mean metal handgun looks deadlier in court then a blocky,black anonymous cube.Since the Glock doesn't have a hammer,no lawyer can say the single action trigger caused "negligence".When a large agency might be sued several times in a year ,that influences what the bosses will approve.And what the cops carry,so will Joe Gunbuyer.

Problem 3 and 4.:Raw materials and labor costs to make metal frame guns have gone up over the years,to the point where S&W just cannot compete against Glock for contracts on a dollar for dollar basis.Because the cost to build a polymer gun is so low,no firm with a metal frame offering can undercut a plastic competitor and still keep a profit.Smith isn't alone in that problem:Sig Sauer brought the SP2022 into production because they kept gettting undercut by the Austrians .That's a problem when many of your public agency customers are legally required to pick the lowest quality bidder.

To a lesser extent,double action to single action guns have fallen victim to time and trends.The in guns nowadays aren't high capacity hammer fired 9mms,but polymer frame bricks named after engine oil weights.Today,the trendy gun is the striker fired 10wTactical.

All is not lost though -some of us do keep the fire burning ,even if we do so off the beaten path.Feel free the chuckle when the 10WTacticals malfunction -I do .

 

[Bourne3198]

Silversmok3, excellent answer. I finally found someone who sounds like they were in that S&W boardroom the day the hammer fell on my favorite piece.

 

[ericlw]

i realise plastic compared to all metal is cheaper but i wouldnt call glocks prices cheap by any means.

 

[Badkarma 1]

Interesting you should mention "abuse".
It would seem somewhere the learning curve went 90 degrees and the new poly pieces don't require as much maintenance as the older steel or steel/ alloy pieces did. Plus the new wonder finishes that shrug off moisture and all the nasty corrosion causing elements no longer require a daily or at least weekly wipe down.
So yeah the new poly pieces survive better in a world of lazy owners who tend to just shoot and put it away.
Price point be damned, I'd buy new 3rd Gens despite the higher price!
As to the ethos being from the 50s, gee I don't know Silversmok3 but it sure seems a lot of folks find the gentle curve of the ancient 39 very pleasing to their hands. Plus the 3rd Gen did give you the option of either a curved or straight backstrap, not to mention the gobs of aftermarket grips with various grains and textures. Not something capable with the poly pieces. Dale

 

[blujax01]

Have you looked at a policeman's utility belt lately? They're carrying a tremendous amount of "stuff" that has to be a real pain to the lower back.

Couple that with the fact that most are not "gun guys" (horror!) and they'll take the weight reduction over the beauty of a 3rd Gen any day.

M&P's and Glocks are both fine hand guns. They're reliable and easy to use. I have a 5906 I will not trade for anything but it's a range gun.

 

[xfarfuldog]

I work for a security related company which has over 5000 employees in the US carrying guns. We were slow to move away from revolvers to autos. When we did, we started using the 4006. We switched to the M&P 40 when the price of the stainless steel guns became prohibitive.