Were polymer frames the death of the 3rd Gen?

[Bourne3198]

Are the 4006's that Calif Highway Patrol has new guns, or are they 10 yrs old pistols that S&W is just supplying parts for? I heard that if an agency orders enough of them, they'll pull the old 3rd Gen machines out of the mothballs and crank out a few.

As mentioned above, the RCMP has about 15,000 5946's, but I think they're just refurbishing the old ones until they disintegrate. I can't imagine the cost for them to supply new guns, holsters, and a transition course to that many officers.

 

[Bourne3198]

I agree that what the police/military buy, the public will follow. Glock was to the modern police what the M-16 was to the Army in 1966. Light, cheap, and carries lots of bullets.

Glock convinced a few major agencies to buy and the flood gates opened. Good bye big steel guns.

 

[Fastbolt]

Are the 4006's that Calif Highway Patrol has new guns, or are they 10 yrs old pistols that S&W is just supplying parts for? I heard that if an agency orders enough of them, they'll pull the old 3rd Gen machines out of the mothballs and crank out a few.

The CHP reviewed their aging inventory of original 4006's, including the increasing numbers of required repairs as the guns were reaching and exceeding 20 years of service, and issued a memo outlining the need for new guns back in '06. (I came across a .pdf copy of that memo a few years ago.)

The replacement gun chosen was the current model of the 4006TSW. Initial (exhaustive) testing of the TSW version apparently made them expect the improved TSW models would provide even longer service than the original standard 3rd gen version.

S&W can make new versions of older models (which they've done, and can do for existing LE agency customers), but I've been told more than a few times that it's not done on old equipment.

I've been told that much of the older equipment on which the original 3rd gen guns were made has not only been taken out-of-service, but they got rid of it (not just put it out back).

That was one of the reasons there was continual improvement in the manufacturing of the 3rd gen guns, they were periodically introducing new methods and equipment. I was told just a few years ago that they had just opened a new barrel forging/manufacturing dept at the main plant. Then, later on when they moved production of the 3rd gen's to Houlton, it involved installing new equipment (and software) at the other plant.

I remember talking to one of the repair guys on the phone when I was calling to ask a couple questions a few years ago, before the new CHP contract was settled. He told me that the factory had run out of 4006 barrels (which are different than TSW barrels in more ways than just the loaded chamber inspection port).

He said that replacing a barrel for one of the old style CHP 4006's involved taking a TSW barrel and laboriously hand-filing the thicker barrel hood so it would fit & function in any specific old style 4006 slide. He said the last one he'd done had been a rather time consuming process.

 

[Outrider]

Lost skills at S&W

One of the things that concerns me about any potential "new runs" of 3rd Gen guns in the future is this...

What would the quality of these guns be -- compared to the "heyday" of the best 3rd Gens -- because Smith craftsmen lost their peak skills during the "hiatus"?

When Smith was making these guns everyday, they had a stable of highly skilled gunsmiths and techs atuned with the extreme fine points and nuances of these guns...Where did those 'smiths go -- and what's become of their abilities in the meantime?

Skills get rusty and lost with disuse -- and the best craftsmen would likely either die off or lose their touch over time when these guns aren't being produced daily...

Sure, many might have moved to the Performance Center. But I suspect a lot of the skill pool has been drained...

Has the 3rd Gen "talent" moved on or died off?

As much I as hate to say it, I can see where 3rd Gens would be "problematic" in the future for S&W...partly because the skill set is very likely much thinner there now...

Maybe it's not a valid concern -- or maybe it is...Maybe the training and skills there move freely between and among all production guns. But who can say with certainty?

 

[4506517]

Believe me, they still know what they're doing. I recently purchased a WVSP 4566TSW. It was made recently. It is by far the highest quality 3rd gennie in the stable. Dont worry, the talent is still there.

 

[M29since14]

Believe me, they still know what they're doing. I recently purchased a WVSP 4566TSW. It was made recently. It is by far the highest quality 3rd gennie in the stable. Dont worry, the talent is still there.

That's good to know. I wish I could get my hands on one of those!

I don't consider S&W's 3rd-Generation guns dead by a long shot but, yes, the impact of the foreign-made polymer-frame gun cannot be denied. I also find it curious that our government agencies have been so flippant about turning their backs on U.S. manufacturers instead of working with them to get what the government wants. It "offends me" to see so many Glocks in the holsters of public servants that in the huge majority of cases have probably been paid for with taxpayers' funds. The politics of the New World Order, I guess. National pride means nothing these days and if you even mention it you are an old fuddy-duddy - or worse.

 

[Fastbolt]

No need to worry about the current TSW's being made. The constant innovation and manufacturing improvements are making these excellent quality guns.

The closer tolerances are certainly helping. Even fitting extractors & sear release levers are becoming quicker and easier (with the right tools and experience, of course).

They finally started using coil pins for the extractors, too, although they weren't listed in the last online parts list to be provided. I was told I'd have to call back and request the right pin for the model I needed. About time. Those old solid pins could require a BIG hammer and the right starter punch in order to remove them at times. You could wear out or even break some starter punches after a while.

Modern manufacturing, design improvements & materials have made these guns that don't require "gunsmiths" to hand-fit everything so they work.