What causes this?

I would agree that they were fired out of a rifle with a very ugly chamber.

As for that wide "ring" just above the rim, I once produced some .45 Colt cases that looked just like that. I had a .45 Colt revolver but no .45 Colt dies yet so I loaded a few rounds by running the brass into a .45 ACP carbide sizing die. It worked, but the cases looked like the one in the photo.

Dave Sinko
 
Mornin' David;

Fun topic!

Would you mind working a small pick up and down the lower interior of the case and reporting your findings?

Hey Skip;

I was thinking the the areas of interest were from minor exterior damage to the case. In some cases it appears to be old and has been there through sizing and firing. The long center spot you have marked appears to be a simple scratch to me. You may be right though.

Examining the case would be much more telling than examining the photo. It's a worn case for certain and needs to go to that big scrap brass bin in the sky.
 
These cases were not fired by me, they were in a box of stuff that I picked up marked .44 rifle.

Whatever the finer points of the cause of the "ring," I would relegate them to the trash. I never reload fired cases if I do not know their history. Brass is cheap compared to the problems that can be caused by case failure.
 
Originally posted by smith crazy:
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To me it would seem we are missing some information. I for one would like to see the head of the case. Were these marks on the cases before you fired them Dave?


The areas in the circles are exactly the ones I have been pointing out in my other posts.

I agree that the case was probably fired in a weak/springy action, but I still believe the line to the left of the circle on the left, was caused by a undersized die, with a sharp edge.
 
bmc,
Thanks. I agree with the future destination of this case.

As for not reloading cases unless they were mine in the first place, well...................................
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Seeing as and beings how, we are all sharing our opinions, here is mine:

This case was shot in an oversize chamber at higher than normal pressures. If I could see the primer I might back down on that a might but all of the signs are there. Then someone attempted to resize the case with the settings incorrect, hence the line at the bottom. I have had some 40S&W cases look very similar to that when fired from a Glock or other semi-supported chamber auto. Mind you, I corrected the setting and went on to load those cases again and again and again and (are you getting the point here?).........

David, could you do me a favor? Measure the case on both sides of the line in question and let us know the results. I am going to guess that the side closer to the rim is bigger than the side away from the rim. Just a guess though and I can be wrong.

The dimple on the right side of the case would seem to be from a dirty chamber or something. Like the case has an indent there.

At any rate, you are our eyes on this one David. Can you stand the case on it's nose and get us a picture of the primer? If you have a macro mode on your camera, it would be best to use it for close ups of the head of the case.

Are there any other marks on the face of the head? Bolt face marks or anything?

FWIW
 
Chamber issue.
Also as BMC said earlier, the only case head separations I've experienced are with rimmed cartridge's sometimes due to chambers of dubious quality. .303 Brit and .32 Winchester Specials made out of formed .30/30 stuff, were my most common ones. The SMLE far more often due to chamber spec's. The .32 Special because of a billion reloading cycles.
 
I still don't see a ridge around the bullet at the ring. It's not a very clear picture but it looks like a ring with some discoloration that makes it look like shadowing. If that is a hole in the case at the ring it could be from powder coming out of the hole.

In my experience a die defect that scratches the case wall half way down on a fired case will make the same scratch all the way down to that point. I would say too that the other damaged areas came from the gun it was fired in, except for the dark spot. Without seeing the case it is very hard to tell. A three dimensional object in two dimensions isn't very reliable.
 
Originally posted by smith crazy:
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You are all trying to read much more into this than there is. Let's address the three circled areas in order.

First, the one at the front of the sizing ring. Between the expanded case body and the groove is a soft transition. If this was a heavy load there would be a very sharp line instead of the soft radiius. The circle is around a small nick in the case also, which could have been there before it was loaded the first time and caused from handling.

Second circle, the fine bright line. This is not where a head separation would occur. This is nothing more than what it appears, a bright fine scratch around the case. This could be a result of a small circumferential scratch in the chamber of the gun the case was fired in before its last loading. A scratch/groove in the chamber can result in a slight raised ring on the outside of the case which is polished bright in sizing. More later.

Third circle. This is simply a minor dent in the case caused by an un-burned powder grain that was still in the chamber from the last round which impressed itself into the surface of the case. This is so common as to occur several times in firing a single box of ammunition in any type of gun. We generally don't nit pick every case to death before reloading it and most go un-noticed.

Regarding the defective die scenario. Dies cannot place circumferential marks on a case at any point except where the die mouth stops when sizing, and on the case mouth while crimping. Any other marks from a damaged die will be longitudinal.

There are no marks which would indicate this case was fired in anything other than a revolver. On the 1/3 or so of the rim that is visible there are no extractor or ejector marks as there would be if it had been fired in a Marlin or Winchester lever action rifle. There are also no marks on the case that would indicate there is any problem with the chamber.

All that can definitely be said about this case is that it was fired, re-sized at least once in a carbide die, re-loaded and fired at least once after sizing. Other than that it doesn't appear the case has been polished based on the general tarnish on it.

If there were several of these it is likely that they have been fired several times. The logic behind this is the prior owner was, obviously, a re-loader. Reloaders do not dispose of brass without a good reason, and in this case it was probably because it had reached his self-imposed limit for number of times loaded.

Use it or not, it's your call. Think about it, there is significant gas leakage from a revolver on every shot. Even if you have a head separation, so what, in a revolver it isn't a safety issue. Head separations are extremely rare in straight-walled revolver cartridges of any caliber. The absolutely worst thing that could happen is the head would pull off next time the case was sized leaving the case body in the sizing die. Even this isn't a significant problem as it would be if it happened with a bottle-neck rifle case in a steel die, just a minor inconvenience.

How did this thread get off on such a tangent? All David asked is what caused the groove! Case was over-sized in a carbide die and then loaded and fired again, that is the long and short of it.
 
I don't suppose you've noticed the head of a case is rarely sized and for good reason. If the case head expands an appreciable amount, as measured by Ken Waters and etc., the pressure is way too high for .44 Mag or other normal handgun rounds. Dies are not designed to size what should never be expanded, unless you're using small base dies. I don't guess I've ever seen a small base die for a handgun, so it probably would be a rather unusual item.

My calibrated eye says the portion from the ridge/ring is smaller toward the rim than it is toward the case mouth.

As far as "Head separations are extremely rare in straight-walled revolver cartridges of any caliber", I think I either have some real rarities or it isn't so rare. Here's some .360 DWs (the only gun ever chambered in it was a Dan Wesson revolver) that are certainly separated.

aar.jpg


I also have some .357 Max brass that is in the same condition.

Cracks are usually concave, since there isn't anything to support the edges. The crack in the bright spot on the original picture is just like the one on the left hand side, just not as extreme.

BTW, the left hand case also has that ring closer to the rim and it certainly isn't separating there. I think I was just partially sizing to be a little easier on the cases, which obviously didn't help matters at all.
 
+1
I agree with Paul5388 100% here. This is what I have been saying, and he demonstrated it with his own photos.

The ring David asked about wouldn't be the area a seperation would occur. It would be in the small circle on the left in smith crazy's picture, and that is what I posted, as well as the fact that is in the same location in Paul's picture.

As far as a die not leaving a circle around a case anywhere but at the base, as in the middle circle in smith crazy's photo... not true. If the case is fired in a chamber that has a burr mark in it, left either by the reamer, or during final polishing, the case will expand into the shallow ring left by the reamer/polishing. When it is passed into the die and over the carbide ring, it'll darn sure leave that ring with a burnished look just like that in the picture. I have had it happen on my own cases before.
 
I took a small pick and ran it into the case a few times, and I cannot feel any lines or ridges, its smooth all the way up. The ridge appears to be only on the outside.
 
I'm not too successful with bent paper clips and etc. I normally use the same light I use to look in the bore and look down in the case.

You can also shine a light on the outside of the "crack" in the left hand circle in Skip's picture. Look inside the case and see if there's any light showing through.
 
I do concede the ring is a little further down than where I'd think a head seperation would be. I have looked at every piece of brass I have, in the house, and can't find one that has a ring like that on it. I use a whole bunch of Lee Carbide dies manufactured over a long period of time, plus a couple other brands. While I can see areas where the die stopped or is different where the die went over the head, nothing looks like that. I guess I've been lucky.

By the way, using a pick or etc. would be a little touchy since that should be right at the bottom of the inside.

And I still don't trust 2D pictures.
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Most of my .357 brass that has been loaded and sized in excess of 5 times has a visible area down near the case head that appears to be slightly bulged but I can't feel it. It's nowhere near as extreme as the case in the picture. I have reloaded them like that (light loads) with no problems as of yet. Once again my cases aren't as extreme as the ones in the picture, I can't feel anything on the outside with my fingernail or the inside with a paper clip and couldn't really see anything with a light. So is the consensus of this thread that this is a common occurrence and the cases can still be used?

I think I get now what most have been saying (I'm kind of slow), what I'm seeing with my cases is the point at which the Lee FCD stops the sizing operation and is nothing to be concerned about.
 

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