What do I have here?

Great news, thanks for the update! It may an early .44 Magnum if it has a screw in the forward base of the trigger guard, but if not it is from after about 1962.
 
Last edited:
Another interesting thing about that number and the vigilantes. That number is on the shield and patches of the MHP as a tribute to the vigilantes.

montana-highway-patrol-patch-9.jpg


...Frederick Allen, in his book A Decent Orderly Lynching, says the number meant the person had to buy a $3 ticket on the next 7:00 a.m. stagecoach to take the 77-mile trip from Helena to Butte...

...The number set may have something to do with the date March 7, 1877; the numbers were first used in that decade and first appeared in print later in that decade of the 19th century. The first Masonic meeting in Bannack, Montana took place March 7, 1877. Many members of this lodge were also the original Vigilantes...

3-7-77 - Wikipedia
 
Last edited:
Well, my local LEO returned the gun to me today. It's been cleared by my home state police, state and local police in Montana where it originated, and it was inspected and returned by BATFE. I will be obtaining a copy of the police report by submitting a FOIA form to my LEO, which contains details of all contacts and clearance by ATF which I plan to keep with the gun.

ATF seems to think it was likely one of the first year .44 mag model 29s which was produced before the model number and letter designation was used by S&W, but may have had some parts changed later on.

Either way, I did the right thing and will be allowed to keep the family heirloom.

Now I just wish I knew the facts behind the 3777, given its origins in Montana.

Thanks for all of your advice and assistance!

DrGunner

Thank you for the update. Very instructive and mildly surprising that ATF didn't just knee jerk confiscate the gun.
 
DrGunner,

That's great news! Thx for closing the loop with us, We seldom find out how these things turn out and it's educational to hear how LE and BATF handled this and great to hear a good ending.

Now that you have it back, if you could look for the original serial # on the back side of the extractor star with a flashlight and magnifying glass. Pushed out like when extracting empty cases and look there.

I'm curious to know if whoever removed the markings on the gun missed that one. If so, we can also get back to identifying the gun for sure and about when it was shipped from the factory.
 
One other thing I didn't see addressed, how did the gun get to you from a relative out of state, "without having been transferred through an FFL"?

Last I heard it was still the law any handgun transferred across a state line had to be through an FFL.

Actually there is an exception to the FFL rule if the gun in question, even a handgun, was bequeathed as an inheritance.
 
Glad that worked out for you.

I would make a copy of the BATF-E paperwork and put the original in my gun safe, safe deposit box, whatever you have. And I would have the copy with me anytime that revolver left my property.

I spent 25 years in law enforcement in this country and while the majority of the officers I knew were good, level headed folks, there WERE exceptions. One officer was called to an area where shots were being fired and found some folks target shooting. The area had been annexed into the city and thus fell under the "no discharging a firearms" ordinance. According to the first officer's partner, the officer went ballistic and gave out a butt chewing. She didn't make an arrest though. The partner & I were riding together when another call to the same area was given to us. When we arrived, the folks that were shooting weren't aware of the change and hadn't hurt anything or anyone. I told them of another place that would be OK to shoot and sent them on their way. That's when I found out about the prior call from the partner.

Another time, an officer made a traffic stop on the interstate and called for back-up. When I arrived, the officer was freaking out because the driver had a truck full of Class 3 weapons. The driver was returning from a gun show and had all of the required paperwork. I sent him on his way.
 
DrGunner,

That's great news! Thx for closing the loop with us, We seldom find out how these things turn out and it's educational to hear how LE and BATF handled this and great to hear a good ending.

Now that you have it back, if you could look for the original serial # on the back side of the extractor star with a flashlight and magnifying glass. Pushed out like when extracting empty cases and look there.

I'm curious to know if whoever removed the markings on the gun missed that one. If so, we can also get back to identifying the gun for sure and about when it was shipped from the factory.


I'll take a look and let you know... I did look once before without a magnifying glass and saw nothing... would the number be on the cylinder itself?
 
Actually there is an exception to the FFL rule if the gun in question, even a handgun, was bequeathed as an inheritance.

It absolutely was bequeathed as part of an inheritance. In Montana, it is an unwritten tradition that shooters buy themselves a gun for Christmas every year, LOL. I sold a good portion of the collection off in Montana to friends of the family who were interested in some of the pieces so that I could recoup some money for his teenage daughter, who I adopted because he was her only living parent. I shipped a small "gym locker" style safe full of guns from FFL to FFL... one of the guns was a Ruger Mini 14 that had been highly modified, into a bullpup. Overall length- I found out from the receiving FFL was NOT legal. It was a crying shame as I had shot that one many times while shooting with my uncle in Montana and it was "One of those Hummers"... A gun that is just absolutely dead nuts accurate creating one ragged hole out of 10 shot groups.

So, I contacted the local sheriffs police and had them meet me at the FFL to take possession of the gun. The sheriff that arrived fell in love with it, so rather than consign it to destruction I signed it over to him so that he could keep it and actually use it on the job which he told me he would gladly do. He was a great guy, and feeling bad about my loss threw down and bought me a case of 223 ammo as a thank you.

LEOs deserve all the help they can get.

DrGunner
 
Last edited:
Glad that worked out for you.

I would make a copy of the BATF-E paperwork and put the original in my gun safe, safe deposit box, whatever you have. And I would have the copy with me anytime that revolver left my property.

I spent 25 years in law enforcement in this country and while the majority of the officers I knew were good, level headed folks, there WERE exceptions. One officer was called to an area where shots were being fired and found some folks target shooting. The area had been annexed into the city and thus fell under the "no discharging a firearms" ordinance. According to the first officer's partner, the officer went ballistic and gave out a butt chewing. She didn't make an arrest though. The partner & I were riding together when another call to the same area was given to us. When we arrived, the folks that were shooting weren't aware of the change and hadn't hurt anything or anyone. I told them of another place that would be OK to shoot and sent them on their way. That's when I found out about the prior call from the partner.

Another time, an officer made a traffic stop on the interstate and called for back-up. When I arrived, the officer was freaking out because the driver had a truck full of Class 3 weapons. The driver was returning from a gun show and had all of the required paperwork. I sent him on his way.

That's great advice that I plan to follow. I submitted a FOIA to my LEO friend yesterday, which has a detailed report of my having voluntarily contacted them, surrendered the revolver and advised them that I did not want to keep it unless it was 100% legit, including BATFE. The report details all contacts, names, dates, phone numbers and case numbers. I plan to notarize 3 copies. One for the safe deposit box, one to keep in the gun safe at home, and one to go under the foam in the hard case I use to transport my sidearms when I go to the range.

That should about cover it.

Thanks for the advice, I've been face to face with a nervous "Barney Fife" type while shooting outdoors on private land.
When one of two officers asked me what I was shooting at, I pointed at targets that were set up on berms 300 and 500 yards away. He would not believe me until I actually walked him out to show him, thankfully his partner was much more levelheaded and calmed him down and educated him about the legality of the 30 round magazine's that I was using.

The perils of being an accuracy nut in
The People's Republic of ILL-Annoy!!!

DrGunner
 
No, not on the cyl "on the back side of the extractor star" and they'll be tiny numbers. So scrub with a cleaning brush and use a magnifying glass.
 
It absolutely was bequeathed as part of an inheritance. In Montana, it is an unwritten tradition that shooters buy themselves a gun for Christmas every year, LOL. I sold a good portion of the collection off in Montana to friends of the family who were interested in some of the pieces so that I could recoup some money for his teenage daughter, who I adopted because he was her only living parent. I shipped a small "gym locker" style safe full of guns from FFL to FFL... one of the guns was a Ruger Mini 14 that had been highly modified, into a bullpup. Overall length- I found out from the receiving FFL was NOT legal. It was a crying shame as I had shot that one many times while shooting with my uncle in Montana and it was "One of those Hummers"... A gun that is just absolutely dead nuts accurate creating one ragged hole out of 10 shot groups.

So, I contacted the local sheriffs police and had them meet me at the FFL to take possession of the gun. The sheriff that arrived fell in love with it, so rather than consign it to destruction I signed it over to him so that he could keep it and actually use it on the job which he told me he would gladly do. He was a great guy, and feeling bad about my loss threw down and bought me a case of 223 ammo as a thank you.

LEOs deserve all the help they can get.

DrGunner

BRAVO!! Now that shows some class!
 
No, not on the cyl "on the back side of the extractor star" and they'll be tiny numbers. So scrub with a cleaning brush and use a magnifying glass.

KK, got it. Thanks for the clarification. Going shooting tomorrow so I'll be in the safe later tonight. I'll remove the extractor star and get a look-see. I'll post a pic if I find anything.
 
Just open the cyl and push the star out as far as it goes and turn it until you see some jibberish on it, those will be the tiny numbers.

It'll be great to get an exact read on the production vintage if the numbers are there.

They read right side up when you look at them from the front of the cyl, usually.
 
Last edited:
A good outcome. Congratulations. And thanks to all who contributed to the 3777 discussion, which was previously a completely unknown matter to me.

Dating: It looks as though there is a narrow relieved band immediately behind the knurled portion of the ejector rod, or extractor rod as some call it. That's an indicator of a left-hand thread, which should indicate the gun (or at least that part and the cylinder assembly into which it is screwed) were manufactured not earlier than 1961. I believe Jim is correct in his surmise that this is a three-screw model, not four. Despite the opinion of ATF's experts, I don't think this is a 1955-58 era revolver from the years before model numbers were applied. But I acknowledge the possibility that a semi-early (can't be first-year because of the absent fifth screw) naked frame was built out later with then-current parts.
 
Interesting thread! I wanted to comment on a few things. Like anyone else, I enjoy a good mystery :)

That's good advice! Although the gun appears to be a 3 screw, therefore the serial # on the rear face of the yoke arm was deleted much earlier, in 1957.

A gun of this vintage will only have these 3 # locations:

1. Butt

2. Extractor star - backside

3. Right stock – backside

Target grips in this era did not have a SN in the right grip panel. Some early 1950s target grips were numbered to revolvers, but that was not done for very long. The grips which have the SN in the right panel are those which reveal the grip frame. These are fit to the frame, and are given the SN so that they can be matched back up to the gun later during assembly.

The barrel also appears to have been shortened

I'm not seeing evidence of that. 4in was a factory length, and the roll mark looks right to me. A pic of the muzzle would be necessary.

ATF seems to think it was likely one of the first year .44 mag model 29s which was produced before the model number and letter designation was used by S&W, but may have had some parts changed later on.

This isn't possible. The early 5 screw guns did have assembly numbers in the yoke. In addition, this gun is a 3 screw frame (judging by photos). The 4th screw would be in front of the trigger guard, as others have said. The ampersand on the barrel is the thin/upright one, which indicates 1973 or later production for the barrel. For the record, 4 screw 44 magnums did not appear until late in 1957, and the bulk of 1957 44 magnums are 5 screw. All 1956 44 magnums are 5 screw. 3 screw frames debut in 1962 for the 44 magnum (and probably other models).

ATF agents generally know a little about a lot of guns, and are unlikely to know these kinds of details. They obviously don't need to know minute details, just as police don't either, but many think that both parties are "experts" on firearms which is far from the truth most often.

Just open the cyl and push the star out as far as it goes and turn it until you see some jibberish on it, those will be the tiny numbers.

It'll be great to get an exact read on the production vintage if the numbers are there.

They read right side up when you look at them from the front of the cyl, usually.

I think there is a good likelihood that the extractor won't be numbered. When you add it all together, the gun was probably assembled POST factory by an individual, and so although your statements about extractors are true, I think someone wanted to build a 44 magnum on an unmarked frame. Its anyone's guess as to how the frame left the factory prior to being marked. Its hard for me to believe that the frame had all of the factory markings, and they were all removed. IMO, the frame was likely intercepted BEFORE the factory applied any markings. The SN could have been present on the butt, but I don't believe the other markings were ever present, judging by the photos.

When you consider the frame having no markings, the extractor SN would only give a clue about the extractor and likely the cylinder, but nothing else.

My impression: First, the frame is not early at all. It does not have any assembly markings, and most importantly, it is a 3 screw frame. The lack of model number (on a correct S&W) in the yoke corresponds to 4 and 5 screw frames, not 3 screw frames. I don't believe these markings were removed, it appears that they were never applied.

The barrel is pinned, and I assume the cylinder to be recessed. The barrel has the upright ampersand, not the "lazy ampersand" so its 1973 or later. The rear sight assembly has a domed screw, which means production is 1960 or later for the assembly.

I think the prudent way of looking at this is judging each part for its own merit. I believe what we have here is not an early frame (it is 3 screw) but a frame that got out of the factory without markings, or had some markings removed (unlikely). Then, someone built this frame into a 44 magnum. We know that the gun (as it sits) was built in the 1970s or later , because had it been built in the 1960s, the barrel at the very least would not have been around, due to the ampersand change. If it was built earlier than the 1970s, then the barrel was replaced with a later one. When you add it all up, its not really possible to say anything more.

As for the extractor, I would not be surprised if it was blank, as I said. I think if its numbered, it could be anything from 1961 to 1980ish, assuming that the chambers are recessed. As DCWilson pointed out, the extractor is stepped down, which indicates the left hand thread. It looks like a band because of the knurling, but the last 1/8in of the extractor is all the same width, and narrower than the rest of the rod. The extractor number doesn't really tell us anything, because the frame itself is devoid of all factory markings. There isn't enough info here to suggest that any of the main parts are original to each other.

A neat gun, and neat story, nonetheless! ;)
 
Last edited:
I'm curious as to what thoughts or opinion Jinks might have on this. How many times can 3777 come up in the history of early 29s ? Is a letter doable or is all his info digitized after a certain date ?

'
 
I'm curious as to what thoughts or opinion Jinks might have on this. How many times can 3777 come up in the history of early 29s ? Is a letter doable or is all his info digitized after a certain date ?

Since the SN is not factory applied, Roy would have no specific information.
 
Back
Top