What do you do during a routine interaction with LEO while carrying?

[bitstream]

Mayor "Machine Gun Ronnie" Thompson protected us from the thugs, back in the day. Your right hand man lived in Macon as a child too. Not evryone from Macon is bad, LOL!

Nope, there are plenty of good citizens up there. But... there is most definitely a large population of thugs too. I go to Macon at least once a week. There are some streets that you don't want to drive down. They are even doing drive-by shootings on bicycles now! It's crazy.

 

[redlevel]

A rule of thumb is to never volunteer that information unless the officer is about to look into the glove compartment, etc.-- where he will obviously find out.


he has the absolute right to temporarily take it into custody during the encounter to protect himself/herself from harm. Totally legal. The officer may even unload the weapon, and place it in his unit until the encounter is over. After the encounter--unless you're being arrested, you're supposed to get the firearm or weapon back. Probably unloaded with the cartridges separate from the firearm--until you or he leaves. Again--totaly legal. Police don't want to get shot. Do not argue with them. Do not challenge his authority. Do not threaten to fight it in court, get a lawyer or make a complaint with the police agency.

In the first place, the officer has no business looking in the glove compartment. Ever heard of the 4th Amendment? Also, at least in Georgia, unless the officer actually places you under arrest, I don't think the officer has a legal right to take your gun in custody. As Sheriff O said, it is done illegally, a whole bunch. I have thought long and hard about this. If my handgun is concealed on my person, and the officer asks me to get out of the car, I would tell him I was armed and ask what he wants me to do. If my gun is on the seat, or in the console, or otherwise concealed, I would not even mention it. If the officer asks if I have a gun in the car, I would probably tell him I did, but I would not consent to a search of my car. I worked for a while as a LEO, and I have the utmost respect for them, but I know that even a good officer goes on a fishing trip now and then. I would not start an argument beside the road, but if an officer insisted on searching me, or especially my car, I would ask him to call his supervisor. Your car is considered, in Georgia at least, to be an extension of your home. Would you let an officer who knocked on your door come in and search for weapons without a warrant?

The OP is from Georgia, and so am I.
There is no requirement that you inform or announce to any LEO that you are armed, or have a GFL/GWL
There is no link or database statewide to determine whether or not the driver or occupant has a GFL/GWL
Each encounter will be different. My stepson has been stopped twice while armed. BOTH times the officer insisted on running the numbers on his Glock 19 that I bought him on his 21st birthday. There is no legal justification in Georgia for doing so, but it has been done anyway, and it is done often.
No one can tell you what to do if you are stopped in Georgia. A lot of times an deputy/officer/trooper will ask you if you are armed. Lying usually isn't a good option.
If you are stopped, then go with the flow. Even if it isn't required, it is a hard argument to win on the side of the road.
MY deputies don't care, unless you are a felon or otherwise armed AND dangerous, but my people are well trained.

First off, the statute does say that you are exempt while dropping off and picking up a child, if you have to go in for a moment to "pick up" your child, I would expect that you are exempt....however, it would depend on the officer who happened to find out you had a firearm in your car. If he wanted to charge you, he likely could. At that point, you might need a REAL good lawyer.

Yes, military personnel are exempt. They can carry legally any where a LEO can carry. I suspect that <5% of the cops in Georgia know that. If you choose to do so, be prepared to discuss it with the officer you are dealing with, as well as his or her supervisor.

I suspect that very few officers in GA know the gun carry laws, and certainly even less understand Terry v Ohio, Jones v State and any number of cases that say that in order to pat someone down, or frisk them, you must have REASONABLE SUSPICION that a person is BOTH armed AND dangerous.....

Thanks, Sheriff, for your clarifications. I wish every department in Georgia could get some meaningful "professional development credit" for taking a course in just exactly what "Reasonable Articulable Suspicion" really means. I am sure your department is well trained on that subject. Thanks again.

Mayor "Machine Gun Ronnie" Thompson protected us from the thugs, back in the day. Your right hand man lived in Macon as a child too. Not evryone from Macon is bad, LOL!

Machine Gun Ronnie ain't there no more. Macon is a cesspool. Sure, there a lot of good people there, but if they were going to give Georgia an enema, they would put the nozzle in somewhere between Pio Nono and Oak Street.

 

[tom turner]

. . . Machine Gun Ronnie ain't there no more. Macon is a cesspool. Sure, there a lot of good people there, but if they were going to give Georgia an enema, they would put the nozzle in somewhere between Pio Nono and Oak Street.

You've got that right. One of the gangs there has the white ladies scared to even go to the mall anymore over on Eisenhower. Rumor is that an initiation is to try to shoot a white lady. The police sub-station in the mall has also closed and all the shops are "fleeing" into the north Macon area suburbs. They've turned the mall into a ghost town . . . and Macon proper into a loud, rude, vulgar place that I don't like to visit. I've only needed my concealed permitted handgun twice in Georgia, and one of those times was in downtown Macon one night. As usual, it was a time when the gun prevented a sure assault from happening . . . a "non-event" and I'm glad. There were three thugs that night . . . and I'd been trapped by them.

To the OP . . .

I remember a routine traffic roadblock I encountered one evening in Dublin while going home from work a couple of years ago. I was TIRED as heck and as I waited my turn for the "show and sniff" I decided to pull my license to be ready.

By the time my turn arrived, I pulled out my wallet and took out my concealed carry permit (which I keep behind my DL) and handed it to the officer instead of my driver's license!!! RUTT ROW!

He gave me this goofy smile, handed it back to me and said, I don't need to see this, I need your license. LOL. I was embarrassed, but that was all there was too it, and I was on my way!

I usually will just hand my driver's license to LEOs here in Georgia. If they were to ask me to exit the car, I'd then hand them the CCW, since I will still have the wallet in my hand waiting for the return of my license, and ask them what they would like me to do.

I think most LEOs in the non-thug parts of Georgia are glad that sober, honest CCW holders are packin' in the state.

Welcome to the world of concealed carry in Georgia!

BTW, I truly appreciate the Oconee County Sheriff's contributions on this website. We are blessed to have a man like that as one of the sheriffs in our fine state. One day I'm gonna have to stop and buy him a cup of coffee on the way to see my grown sons and the grand kids in Athens!

Tom

 

[redlevel]

You've got that right. One of the gangs there has the white ladies scared to even go to the mall anymore over on Eisenhower. Rumor is that an initiation is to try to shoot a white lady.

Before someone rolls their eyes or says this is just an unsubstantiated rumor, I want to post this picture again.

The car belongs to my neighbor, who is the Principal of the Elementary School here. She was on one of the roads between Ft. Valley and Warner Robbins. She was headed to Ft. Valley after Christmas shopping in Warner Robbins. Someone in an oncoming car fired a .45 slug through her car door, apparently at random. Not in Macon, but certainly near there and WR. I am convinced that it was part of a gang initiation, although there is no way they could have known who was in the car.

She found a .45 slug in a container of sour cream in her groceries. Suppose there had been a child in a seat, or even just a passenger?

 

[4011]

If and when I get stopped I will give the permit along with the DL to the officer. I would want him to do the same. To me it just makes good sense for the officer to know. 99 1/2 are just good folks making a living. Just my $.02 worth.

 

[Michael Petrov]

Interesting thread,
I live in Alaska where no CCW permit is needed. However if approached by LEO you need to inform them you are CCW. I would much rather say something then for them to find it on their own.

 

[sheriffoconee]

The bottom line is there is no "one way" to guarantee a polite, successful encounter if you are stopped while armed
Whatever happens, good luck, and remember, the likelihood that the encounter is being recorded is VERY high

And thanks for the kind words....we believe in the Constitution here....

 

[tacreload]

About a year ago I stopped at my daughter's house to visit only to find she was not home.Had taken my grandaughters shopping so I stopped at the local distibutor to pick up my weekend beer.A mile from said distibutor looking in my rearview mirror I saw flashing red & blue.I pulled over to let him by and he pulled in right behind me.I'm thinking he saw that I wasn't wearing a seat belt.He and his partner got out ask me for my DL.I complied and he said they had a report of a man in a Chevy truck attempting to lure some kids into his vehicle.He asked me where I was coming from and I told him Park Ave and the distributor as evidenced by the 30 pack on my back seat.Well my lucky day.The attempted luring was on the same street my daughter lived on.Now I'm thinking I am probably going to be told to get out of my truck and maybe detained for questioned.The officer took my license back to the cruiser and called it in.Minutes later he came back and said it would be a few moments before he could give me back my license to which I responded ,no problem but I feel I should tell you I have a laoded revolver in my console and I have a permit to carry it.His response was no problem just leave it there.His partner who was not really all that pleasant came up to my passenger window and rapped on it,I put the window down and he proceeded to ask me my life history.All the while another cruiser shows up and circles my vehicle several times.After about 45 minutes they handed back my DL and apologized for the inconvenience,I said I understood cause I got grandaughters and they sent me on my way.I called a good friend of mine who was an officer on that force for 10 yrs and still knows most of those guys and told him the story.They never told me that I didn't fit the description of the guy.I have a white beard and white hair.The pervert didn't.His truck was old and rusty mine was new.The kids were in that cruiser that circled my vehicle.He also said that when he was there he probably would have asked me out of the vehicle,handcuffed me and held the revolver until things were resolved.I guess there is no concrete procedure it all depends on the particular officer.By the way the two similarities in the vehicle in question and mine were Chevrolet and color.Mine is an extended cab his wasn't.

 

[MaximumLawman]

Also, at least in Georgia, unless the officer actually places you under arrest, I don't think the officer has a legal right to take your gun in custody. As Sheriff O said, it is done illegally, a whole bunch.

I think this is only a gray area because it hasn't been contested in court. I would like to see case law that says if an officer finds a gun on someone that does NOT have a permit where one is required, he may arrest them, but if he comes across a legally-armed person on a traffic stop (for example) he does not have the right to momentarily disarm the person for the length of the contact.

I don't think the Supreme court would say that an officer has to conduct a traffic stop while leaving the subject armed just because he qualified for a permit or is carrying legally without a permit. I normally do not disarm motorists who are legally carrying on traffic stops, but I have. I've stopped 1%er bikers who were legally armed, I've stopped gang members who were legally armed and I've stopped seemingly "upright" citizens who were legally armed on traffic stops but who made me nervous for one reason or another. I disarmed them without incident.

It will be interesting to see what happens when a case goes to court where an officer demands that a legal carrier give up his gun momentarily on a traffic stop and the person refuses and is arrested for failing to obey the officer's lawful order. The question for the court will then be: "Was the order lawful?"

I'd like to see some case law on this if anyone has any. No anecdotal stories of what happened at your local district court, but rather case law at the state supreme court level or higher in the federal courts.

Incidentally, an officer has the right to pat a person down for weapons when he has REASONABLE SUSPICION to believe the person is armed AND potentially dangerous. You hand me a permit or tell me you're armed on a traffic stop in the middle of nowhere at 3:00am and you just gave me the "armed". It's not going to be much of a stretch in many cases for me to come up with reasonable suspicion for "potentially dangerous". I'm not going to let a Latin Count sit in his car with his three buddies at the side of the road with a gun in his waistband while I go back to my car to conduct an investigation. I don't care if he's got a little piece of paper from the county that says he's Mother Theresa.

I don't think the courts would say my partner and I were out of line to temporarily seize the gun under these or similar circumstances.

Also, I will never, ever tell one of my officers that he can't disarm someone during a contact on the street if he feels the need to do so. We'll worry about who the case law is named after later. Right now I'd rather see him and the person he's investigating go home safely no matter how pissed off the legal gun carrier is that he had to give up his gun for 3 or 4 minutes.

There IS case law that says an officer may handcuff someone during an investigation even if he has no intention of arresting him.

 

[jtpur]

I'll second (or third) the posters that say follow the law.
I live on the border of Michigan and Indiana, on the IN side. Here in Indiana we do not have to notify. If in MI, you must notify. I've been stopped in Indiana and didn't notify, I've been stopped in Michigan and did. (BTW, the Michigan stop ended up with me getting a warning and the Indiana stop ended up with a $135 ticket. I was the same speed over in both cases. Draw your own conclusions from the Michigan stop but I'm convinced the Indiana stop would have went the same way if I'd notified as the little town I was stopped JUST outside is notorious for being a speed trap.)

anthoer cop wrote you and your a cop now? Thats plain wrong...i know I know some of you are gonna say who are we to get out of a ticket....???well I tell ya.....it a cop is getting his butt kicked on the street only another cop is guranteed to stop and help....now who wants to be getting their butt kicked and the guy you just wrote up drives by......yeah he should do the right thing and stop, but humans being what they are......you figure the rest out...

 

[cmort666]

anthoer cop wrote you and your a cop now? Thats plain wrong...i know I know some of you are gonna say who are we to get out of a ticket....???well I tell ya.....it a cop is getting his butt kicked on the street only another cop is guranteed to stop and help

It's very simple. If you treat me differently, you have ABSOLUTELY no right to complain when I view you negatively. Consider that it might be ME who sees you on the losing end of a fight with two people trying to get your gun. Why should I put myself in jeopardy for somebody who views me as an inferior?

The whole "If you're not cop, you're little people" thing from "Blade Runner" gets really old, really fast.

 

[MaximumLawman]

Hey Mort, would you write your own brother? What kind of cop would you want to respond to a situation you or your wife or kids were involved in that required tact, compassion and discretion on the part of the responding officer? A guy who wouldn't write his brother or the kind who would?

As far as you not stopping to help an officer because he doesn't write cops, we don't need your help. Really. You might have some hero fantasy about saving some cop at the side of the road but if that's the kind of caveat you put on your assistance, you'd probably make the situation worse if you stopped.

Good thing the cops don't pick and choose which calls to respond to based on what the caller things of the police.

 

[luangtom]

Another GA permit-holder here. Good luck with your new GWL and carry safe.

There are counties in GA that definitely do not know GA firearms law. One county in the Metro-Atlanta area will cuff you and remove your firearm to run its numbers no matter how you present yourself to them. It is their S.O.P. So, carry safe and be wary.

I would also recommend going online and looking up the GA carry group and the forum online in GA that addresses these very issues. Or, PM me and I can give you their links.

 

[cmort666]

Hey Mort, would you write your own brother?

If I wouldn't I shouldn't be a cop.

What's your cut-off point for letting relatives and other cops violate the law?

What kind of cop would you want to respond to a situation you or your wife or kids were involved in that required tact, compassion and discretion on the part of the responding officer? A guy who wouldn't write his brother or the kind who would?

I have literally NO expectations of the police other than that they know and obey the law. Anything else is gravy.

As far as you not stopping to help an officer because he doesn't write cops, we don't need your help.

If he's not "writing" other cops, he's probably doing other things that aren't above board either. Those things often escalate, sometimes catastrophically.

Regardless, I'm betting that if I see two guys stomping you and about to get your gun, you'll want me to dial 911, regardless of my opinion of you.

Good thing the cops don't pick and choose which calls to respond to based on what the caller things of the police.

That's not strictly true, is it? I've even heard them say it's not true. I've seen police services denied on the basis of race. Denial on less controversial but no less improper bases are hardly implausible.

 

[Double-O-Dave]

A couple of weeks ago I got stopped for speeding (I was, no excuses) and this was my first stop since I got my CHL. My pistol was loaded and locked in a pistol safe under the passenger side (front) seat. I did everything the officer told me to do, when he told me to do it. As he didn't ask me to get out of the car, and I wasn't armed at the time, I didn't disclose that I have a CHL, and that there was a loaded gun in the car. I've been told that in Texas the LEOs get an alert that you are a CHL holder when they run your driver's license. I was never asked about my CHL, the officer just gave me a citation and my license back, and told to watch my speed. My plan was that if he asked me to get out of the car, or asked about my CHL, I would tell him about the loaded and secured gun and/or my CHL. I think everything worked out the way it should have except that I've got to take my medicine and pay for a speeding ticket. Like someone said earlier, the way not to get a speeding ticket is not to speed. Unfortunately, my right foot has high concentrations of lead.

Best regards,

Dave

 

[Brian41]

As mentioned here in Michigan we are required to inform an LEO we are carrying. My cousin forgot to mention it and lost his permit for 6 months.
He got stopped for speeding and gave his license to the officer. Upon checking it he learned my cousin had a CPL and asked if he was carrying. My cousin told him he had a gun in the console and was cuffed and left bent over the trunk while his vehicle was searched. He got a ticket and later the suspension by the gun board.

Recently I met a township officer at my house after the house alarm set off a false alarm. He asked me if I wanted him to check inside the house and I agreed. Upon finding everything okay he asked for my ID for his report. Since my ID and CPL permit are together in my wallet I decided to tell him I have a permit but was not carrying. He asked if that was because my employer forbid carrying on company property and I replied yes. He commented on that being stupid policy and I agreed.
I had no legal responsibility to tell him that but it seemed the responsible and proper thing to do at the time.

 

[Faulkner]

Here's a story from the other side. I initiated a traffic stop on a rural highway a couple of weeks ago. I introduced myself, advised why I stopped the nice gentleman, and asked to see his license and registration. He reached in the glovebox and pulled out his registration, then opened his wallet and handed me his driver's license and carry permit. I took a quick glance at the permit just to make sure the name on the CCW matched the DL, it did, and handed the CCW back to him.

I stepped back from his car out of earshot and radioed dispatch for a DL check. Dispatcher said he was clear and confirmed he had a CCW. I pulled out my ticket book and wrote the nice gentleman a warning, and went back to the car to explain the warning notice.

Towards the end of our conversation he asked me, "I noticed you only glanced at my concealed carry permit, do you mind me asking if you support concealed carry."

I replied, "I am absolutely a supporter. In fact, though I have a badge I also have a CCW and so does my wife."

He then asked, "Well, this is the first time I've been pulled over since I've gotten my permit, do you guys want to see the gun or anything during a traffic stop?"

I told him, "Sir, you conducted yourself just fine on this stop. You showed me your permit, I made sure it matched your drivers license, and at that point I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt you are a law abiding citizen. Had I needed to ask you to step out of the car we would have had a conversation about if you had a weapon on you at that time. Otherwise, do not show me your gun unless you want to see mine too, from the barrel end."

He laughed and said thanks for the info.

 

[scooter123]

As previously noted, in Michigan there is a requirement to notify.

Some are bothered by this but I look at it from the Police Officers standpoint, they have every right to go home at the end of the day and they DO NOT like surprizes that might end up with them hurt or killed. IMO, it's far safer for both the Police and the Civilian for everyone present at a traffic stop know exactly where every gun is being kept.

BTW, I've been the victim of an armed robbery on 3 seperate occasion, two at gunpoint and one by knife. Fortunately back in the 70's armed robbers seem a lot less willing to harm their victim if the victim was cooperative, so I came away unscathed. However, I know from personal experience what it feels like to look down the barrel of a gun and I DO NOT LIKE THAT. As a result, I do my best to insure it doesn't happen again, either with the Police or a potential robber. If you don't notify and are patted down for some reason, most Police are most likely going to respond with force.

BTW, the Police in my area ALWAYS pat a person down if they need them to sit in their cruiser, even if it's just to provide details as a witness to a crime or accident. Note, that also doesn't bother me, as I said the Police have as much right to go home safe at the end of the day as I do. So, I don't have any issues that help to insure their safety, even if it is a bit of an inconvenience for me.

I'm also quite certain that having my CPL linked to the License database got me a free pass on speeding in a construction zone. Here in Michigan that link isn't just to the DL but also any vehicle registered in your name. I really wasn't paying attention closely enough and came into the zone a bit "hot", not stupid hot but I should have hit the brakes instead of coasting down. As a result I was doing 62 in a 50 construction zone when a statie popped into a turnaround and caught me dead to rights at 12 over. He came hauling up on me quite quickly, trailed me for a good mile, at which point I said screw it and pulled onto the shoulder. That statie then pulled alongside, beeped his horn and then shook his finger at me. I got the message and kept me speed down in the rest of the construction zone.

 

[NE450No2]

Here are my thoughts, and bear in mind I was a LEO for over 30 years...
In Texas...

IF I have "casual" contact, ie a traffic stop, with a person that has a valid CHL, I KNOW that he has passed a background check, and HE or SHE is a "Good Citizen"....

So I would recommend that even if you are not "carrying" that you give the Officer your handgun permit.

 

[Double-O-Dave]

Here are my thoughts, and bear in mind I was a LEO for over 30 years...
In Texas...

IF I have "casual" contact, ie a traffic stop, with a person that has a valid CHL, I KNOW that he has passed a background check, and HE or SHE is a "Good Citizen"....

So I would recommend that even if you are not "carrying" that you give the Officer your handgun permit.

NE450No2

Good point, thank you for your advice, which I will follow next time.

Regards,

Dave