What do you think about the 4586 as a duty pistol?

[Leiden]

I've used various 45xx series, non-DAO pistols a long time as duty pistols and I love each, but my brother just gave me a 4586 and I'm thinking about using it for work as a duty pistol. It shoots the same 2" 25 yard groups as my 4506 (thanks Sniper47) and is just as handy as the 4563/4566, but I must say the consistent, smooth DAO trigger pull has an attraction the others don't have.

I'm use to, and completely comfortable with, the DA/SA trigger transition, but the very smooth DAO 4586 trigger pull is extremely nice. I' is like an 8 shot revolver.

I'm thinking about having Novak replace the rear sights with a all-black rear and a gold bead from the front. The 4586 just seems to be a no-frills, basic as can be, 3rd gen auto with no levers to throw on the slide or frame.

What do you guys think? I already know they're going to think I'm crazy at work. After all, who other than me would want to carry something other than Glock or Kimber?

 

[Jim H]

It should be as good as any, and better than most...

 

[SW CQB 45]

If you decide yes.....make sure to put plenty of trigger time in to develop a feel and a transistion from DA/SA.

I would hate for you to get in a stressful shoot situation and you revert to DA/SA and short stroke any follow up shots to your initial.

Not sayings its a good move....just back it up with plenty of trigger strokes/training.

 

[KPSqured]

Many were used as a duty pistol...

 

[Leiden]

If you decide yes.....make sure to put plenty of trigger time in to develop a feel and a transistion from DA/SA.

I would hate for you to get in a stressful shoot situation and you revert to DA/SA and short stroke any follow up shots to your initial.

Not sayings its a good move....just back it up with plenty of trigger strokes/training.

And therein lies the problem.....the DAO reset isn't even remotely similiar to the DA/SA reset. I do have to remind myself to let it go out "2 clicks" and all the way or I end up short stroking it and it doesn't go bang.

The reset was my only hesitation. I like the idea of no levers or buttons, and all that slide space for gross motor skill clearance drills, but the reset does bother me a bit.

 

[squidsix]

I had a 3953 for a while but never got quite used to the trigger, and don't miss it. I would stick with the 4566/4506 you are used to.

 

[sniper47]

Actually, what I find quite shocking is, you didn't buy that gun from me.

Just kidding. I can only concur with the other posters about the muscle memory/training you have with the traditional DA/SA. This reminds me of a LEO friend I had in San Diego years ago. The department issued the Beretta 92 for years and finally was allowing officers to change their sidearm. A few of his buddies were going the Kimber route and he asked me about it. I told him much the same, your muscle memory and training are with the traditional SA/DA trigger, with the slide mounted safety that comes with the Beretta while the Kimber is the exact opposite. He passed on the Kimber. Last I knew, he was still carrying the Beretta.

 

[VTHokiesDuckHunter]

If all you ever shoot are revolvers I can see going to a DAO model. But if you're used to DA/SA, and then choose to buy a pistol with DAO trigger, it seems to me like driving a car with electric windows and then buying one that only has manual roll up windows!

Let's face it, the DA/SA is in and of itself and advance feature that provides many benefits.

I'm not trying to start a controversy in this regard and realize some LEO's are forced to carry DAO pistols, and other guys just like a consistent DAO pull from first shot to last.

 

[Outrider]

Go for it!

I strongly favor Smith DAOs over DA/SAs -- even though I've got two 1006s.

I still lean toward the 1086 -- far and away.

In fact, I'd trade the 1006s today for two 1086s -- if the opportunity presented itself. The only place a DA/SA surpasses a DAO is on shots out past 100 yards -- which is something to consider if you're likely ever required to shoot out that far.

I've never allowed myself what I consider the silliness -- and I mean no offense to anyone -- of trying to shift from double action on the first shot -- to a short stroke on the second -- and ever expect to hit ANYTHING.

When I had a 1086 and a different 1006, I could tear the target up free-hand or off the bench out to 50 yards with either pistol -- BUT I thumb-cocked the 1006.

So I had a consistent short stroke single action on the 1006 -- or a consistent DAO pull on the 1086.

I eliminated the "shift" that way.

I'm with Col. Jeff Cooper on the DA/SA "problem" with "krunchentickers". The only time I'd ever be in the position to fire DA from the 1006 would be in extremely close quarters -- in a dubious situation -- before I'd thumb-cocked the piece -- and then kept my finger outside the triggerguard -- finger off trigger. (a la Glock training).

Muscle memory is pretty easy to reset. It can be done in about two weeks -- or less.

Smith DAOs can have an unbelievably smooth trigger -- and the 1086s I've owned or fired have all -- to a gun -- grouped as well or better than their 1006 counterparts fired SA.

When you combine that with a smooth slide -- and you eliminate the prospect of accidentally under stress engaging the decocker/safety when you need an "instant" shot -- the 4586 gets my nod.

I promise you if you accidentally drop your safety while carrying your DA/SA -- say, in a shoulder holster -- you will automatically start checking the safety's position with your thumb everytime you draw...a needless distraction.

That might be 1-2 seconds you don't have to spare in a life-threatening situation.

Now, is the safety LIKELY to ever engage accidentally? No! Let me stress that! Could it? It's always a chance -- where you NEED to be aware!

You have to realize that every gun has downsides and drawbacks -- potential points of failure. If you carry, you NEED to KNOW YOUR GUN -- all the good and ALL the potential problems.

Would I stake my life on my 1006s? In a heartbeat!

BUT...

I'm always conscious of that safety/decocker lever -- just as 1911 users are always aware of not completely brushing off their safety -- or Glock users are aware of "Ka-booms" and limp-wristing.

I've read of cases where accidental engagement of a safety has gotten an LEO killed. Other failures in other types of pistols have also VERY LIKELY gotten the good guy killed.

It's just that nobody ever figured out what happened.

In fact, it's likely happened more than once -- on many different types of guns -- where an unexplained failure cost that crucial second in a specific situation.

All in all, give me a clean slide in a tight spot -- just because it's one less thing to be burdening your thinking at one of the most stressful moments in your life!

Don't get me wrong. I love the 1006s. But I wouldn't carry them as my first choice as a LEO duty gun -- just because I HAVE accidentally engaged a safety when I was trying to draw fast during a drill.

That broke me of EVER taking that safety for granted...

By the way, I wouldn't carry a 1911 for the same reason. I've gone to "snick" off the safety -- and the safety wouldn't "snick" -- so I dropped the 1911 -- "quick".

 

[Outrider]

And it's obviously happened to others as well...

I love my 1006s. I just carry them on a belt holster -- where for some reason -- the safety doesn't seem as likely to engage...Maybe it was motion of my left arm over the pistol -- while in the shoulder holster -- that moved the safety to "on". That's my guess -- as it's never happened again.

Still, on the Smith DA/SAs, failure drills NEED to include instantly and effortlessly checking to make sure the safety is off -- along with the standard "rap-tap-bang" move!!!!!!!

(When getting out of a car or rising from a chair, I also subsconsciously and automatically check to make sure the safety is still off. I might check that safety 15-20 times a day -- just as habit -- especially after a lot of bending and sitting. Silly? Not really! It doesn't take that much effort -- especially if it heads off a problem. Anal retentive? Well, you may have a case there....)

Actually, when I'm thumb-cocking the pistol, I check the safety in one, smooth move -- which can be done as part of the draw-motion.

I'm good at it -- probably good enough to compete, but don't know how that would be if I were ever actually under fire. It's one more thing that could go wrong -- and the prospect requires awareness. As Dpris noted:

I carried a 4516 on & off duty for a while. The weight didn't bother me, what killed it off was the slide-mounted safety that activated during a qualifier one day. Figured if it could happen there, it could happen on the street, and your normal failure drills don't get it running again in a hurry.
The safety was just one more thing that could go wrong, if inadvertently bumped or swiped.

 

[Bat Guano]

I got to play with a 4586 that was loaned to us years ago. I was prepared to dislike it but was very pleasantly surprised by the excellent DA and how well it shot for me. I was doing a lot of DA revolver work at the time and it was an impressive gun. My son who was about 15 at the time shot it on a side-swinging target and rang the disc like a bell with that gun.

Maybe I should keep my eye open for a trade-in 4586...

 

[VTHokiesDuckHunter]

In fact, I'd trade the 1006s today for two 1086s -- if the opportunity presented itself. The only place a DA/SA surpasses a DAO is on shots out past 100 yards -- which is something to consider if you're likely ever required to shoot out that far.

I think all of the guys that shoot 1911's and Hi-Powers with their single action triggers, and then all of the guys who shoot worldwide in the military with Beretta's and Sigs (DA/SA), plus myself, would disagree with the statement about not being needed or more accurate inside of 100 yards compared to a DAO trigger.

 

[Outrider]

You missed the point

I think all of the guys that shoot 1911's and Hi-Powers with their single action triggers, and then all of the guys who shoot worldwide in the military with Beretta's and Sigs (DA/SA), plus myself, would disagree with the statement about not being needed or more accurate inside of 100 yards compared to a DAO trigger.

You missed the point. I was comparing 1006s to 1086s in that statement.

And in that, I was referring to cocking the 1006 -- where it was more accurate at and past 100 yards than the 1086 -- because of crisper trigger with the 1006 cocked.

But a 1911 isn't even a DA/SA, is it? So it has to be cocked.

I do question whether, on average and typically, most shooters can consistently perform as well first shot DA, second SA out past 100 yards as with cocking the DA/SA or even DAO.

I doubt even Jerry Miculek could.

In fact, most studies I've heard of show that accuracy falls off dramatically when trying to make the transiton between DA/SA.

The studies seem to indicate best accuracy comes from SA only, cock the DA/SA or go DAO.

I don't claim or pretend to be an expert, but that jives with my personal experience.

 

[VTHokiesDuckHunter]

Outrider: The studies seem to indicate best accuracy comes from SA only, cock the DA/SA or go DAO.

I don't claim or pretend to be an expert, but that jives with my personal experience

I'm with you 100% in that regard Outrider. I go back and forth between cocking most of my DA/SA's for the first shot (if I want to work on accuracy and "create a really pretty group") and then with more of a personal defense practice- shoot the first round DA from a hammer down position and then shoot 2 reasonably quick follow up SA.

Except for a couple of compact with bobbed hammers- I don't thumb them back for the first round but occasionally will shoot them first round single action after racking the slide with the decocker up in the fire position.

Although I would be very curious, if you looked statistically at a lot of targets (and maybe this is what you are referring to in "studies seem to indicate") and looked at accuracy of the DA/SA pistol over many targets even when not thumb-cocking the first shot, compared to the accuracy of the DAO over many targets - what kind of data you would see? I would think that although you would have to account for the first shot of a DA/SA being outside the mean, that the succeeding SA shots would have a much tighter mean grouping and less overall outliers than a similar number of DAO shots.
Again, the actual data may not support that theory of mine. And you would have to compare guns of a similar model with trigger jobs performed by the same gunsmith, to some agreed upon standard respective of the type of trigger action, etc.

What do you think? Or is there some data already compiled in this regard?

 

[Outrider]

"Studies seem to indicate"

I couldn't quote studies I'd seen -- as I've only heard "interpretations" of the data.

The one I trust most (because he agrees with all my presuppositions, biases and personal prejudices) came from Chuck Karwan in Combat Handgunnery (3rd edition).

Basically -- as I recall -- Chuck said the data comes from -- in this case -- Smith and Wesson. I don't think HE'D even seen the actual data -- only talked with one (or some) of the company's researchers who conducted the testing.

But, as best I recall -- and I'd have to double check before I swear this under oath -- Karwan said the accuracy for traditional DA/SA -- fired that way -- was pretty dismal.

That was one of the reasons Smith went with a smooth, partially "pre-cocked" DAO system such as the one they developed.

As best I remember, again, accuracy, reliability of use, freedom from screw-ups -- everything improved -- when shooters moved away from long first DA, short subsequent shots.

(Truth be told, my accuracy at 25 yards was actually BETTER with the Smith DAO in the 1086 than it was with my previous 1006 -- even thumbcocked -- which STILL astounds me!!!!!!!!!!!)

I came up with the thumbcock on my own -- only to find it was the one redeeming method Jeff Cooper found passable on DA/SA "krunchentickers" -- and also that lots of other guys were using that method also.

(So much for any claims of originality on my part...)

But, to me, shooting DA/SA is like trying to win a bike race -- with one tire with a flat side that goes "ka-chunk" with every revolution.

But let me own it up -- I AM a consistency freak.

I can deal with just about anything -- as long as it's consistent.

 

[Outrider]

As for me, I doubt I'd ever own a Smith that I couldn't thumb-cock or shoot DAO.

(That applies even if it was a 1076. I'd have to figure a way to put a working -- howbeit, compact -- cockable hammer on it...)

But that's just me...

 

[VTHokiesDuckHunter]

Bobbed hammer dilemna

Outrider posts: As for me, I doubt I'd ever own a Smith that I couldn't thumb-cock or shoot DAO.

I kind of share that sentiment - but am trying it out on a new to me 3rd gen compact model that came with a factory bobbed hammer. I normally shoot 3rd gens like 5906's with traditional hammers with spurs.

I'm also moving to an IWB holster for CCW, from always carrying OWB- and of course "everyone" swears it's more convenient to have a bobbed hammer. So far I've tried guns of both types IWB and haven't detected much of a difference.

If that continues to be the case, I'll get a factory hammer with spur for my compact 3rd gens.

Any other strong opinions on the subject or advice?

 

[FatGuy]

The key will be to commit to one or the other. Either stick with the DA/SA or move to the DAO. The triggers are so different that you will master either one or the other, but never both (in pistols that otherwise feel so similar). My feeling is that the DAO works best for the ranges that I am most likely to have to use the pistol and there are no levers to mess with.