What do you think of traffic "Roundabouts"?

[JFootin]

We have one around the square downtown in my little town. It is one wide lane with parking on both sides and the speed limit is 20 mph, so it is very easy to use. I couldn't conceive of one on a busy multi-lane highway. So many drivers are just not smart enough to handle that. Sounds like a disaster in the making.

 

[Faulkner]

They are merely an excuse to not spend the money on a regular intersection.

There is a great deal of truth to this statement because roundabouts do have a great deal to do with costs. The city of Conway, Arkansas, is using them a great deal in their street upgrades on 2 lane, 4 lane, and 4 lane divided. I go down to Conway a good bit and during heavy traffic I find the roundabouts to be no more or no less impactful on the flow than traffic signals. But . . . during the rest of the day and at night they actually help the flow. How many times have we sat at a traffic light for minutes at a time with no flow of traffic from the crossing direction? Well, you don't have to wait at a roundabout.

There is no doubt that in the long run roundabouts are more cost effective than traffic lights. Sure, they have a bigger real estate footprint, but after the initial investment there are no lights to maintain 24 hours a day.

I also think some people just don't like change. "We've had interesections for a hundred years, we don't need no stinking roundabouts." I don't think roundabouts are the save all to be utilized in every traffic intersection, but I do think they can be effective and cost efficient in many opportunities.

Lastly, as far as roundabouts being difficulty of use . . . I bet the same folks who complain about roundabouts are the same ones who complain about a Ruger MKII being too hard to field strip.

 

[finesse_r]

So if I understand you correctly...We have to cater to the lowest common denominator in all things,one being the design of roads instead of educating drivers in the proper operation of vehicles.Forgive me but that seems defeatist and exactly why we're in the state we're in......No?

I did not say anything about all things. But in the designee of Highways and major intersections yes. As long as you give those people driver licenses and allow them to drive, you need to design highways that they can use, and use safely. The number of traffic deaths every year is staggering, and the number of people disfigured and injured is even greater, not to mention the damage to vehicles being in the tens of millions of dollars.

Clearly there are large numbers of drivers out there that cannot deal with a complicated, confusing, and ill designed circle of death. You keep driving these circles and I have no doubt you will meet many such people and I only hope you are lucky enough to survive those meetings.

Worse most areas are increasing in population so these things will become more and more crowed. In periods of heavy traffic it is bad enough going through an intersection with clearly marked stop signs or stop lights.

However, when people have no clear cut right of way and have to change lanes once or sometimes several times in a short distance while traveling fairly tight in a circle, they have to watch both sides, front and back while trying to stay in their lane. I would estimate 5 to 10 percent of the people with driver licenses are not capable of such visual acuity.

So unless you own a local body repair shop, or have stock in the local hospital, I can see little benefit to these suicide circles some people are so fond of. Now a one lane circle in a sleepily little town may work well enough, but whey you start putting these on highways and heavily trafficked multi-lane roads, you are designing a death trap.

Ever since the first autos, most states have made an effort to design safe roads and roads that are easy to navigate. These circles of death mark a change in that policy. They are not just change, they are awful change, that will end up killing and injuring many people.

Some people embrace change for change sake and think all change is automatically good. Change has to be evaluated and sometimes it is good, and recently, mostly it is bad.

Even if such a circle were more cost effective for the road builder, which compared to 4 stop signs I seriously doubt or even to a stop light, but even if it were the increased likely hood of an accident is clear to anyone that has ever used one of the dreaded things.

 

[luangtom]

Traffic-circles have their good points and their bad points. It all depends upon their application. Multi-laned roads converging onto one is ridiculous. Making them too small is also an error that I have witnessed with a semi-truck not being able to navigate around it properly and taking out signs and shrubbery along the circle. It all depends upon where they are constructed and what they are meant to replace. Overall....I think they are terrible. I did not like them in Europe either.

As a side-note, ya oughta see someone trying to navigate a hook-n-ladder around one......

 

[5Wire]

Anything that reduces stops and starts makes for better fuel efficiency. An additional purpose of roundabouts is "traffic calming" as it's called in Ireland.

 

[zonker5]

We have some in the town I live in and we have no problems. I like them a lot better than a 4 way stop, particularly on low traffic streets.

 

[Marshwheeling]

After five pages of discussion of this point, it is clear that there are two kinds of people in this world: those who divide people into narrow categories, and those who don't.

 

[5Wire]

After five pages of discussion of this point, it is clear that there are two kinds of people in this world: those who divide people into narrow categories, and those who don't.

I've heard a related observation, there are three types of people with relations to numbers: those who understand mathematics and those who don't.

 

[LVSteve]

If you consider there are about 45,000 traffic deaths a year in the USA, how many people driving on the roads out there do you think can or do "drive better than the typical chimp with an opposable thumb"? Clearly roads should be designed to accommodate all drivers not just those who have exceptional skills.

OK, if we use your assumption that the average US driver cannot deal with a roundabout, then it is no effort to extrapolate to a bunch more things they cannot handle. Here are a few other requirements to "dumb down" the roads.

1) No speed limits above 55mph. Many folk cannot stay in lane at that speed let alone faster. Then we have the issue of the neglect dealt out to most cars in the US by ignorant owners and the fact that not all states have inspections. On that basis alone 55mph is probably generous.

2) Due to the frightening inability to merge we see demonstrated on freeways every day, the limit will be reduced to 35 mph wherever there is a set of on or off ramps.

3) Where interstates pass through cities, the speed limit shall be 35 mph as those cities have demanded that the junctions be way too close together for "access".

I'm sure I could dream up a few more given time.

The simple fact is that driver training in the US is appalling. I have done a driving test in Nevada and it is a joke compared to a UK test. That said in the UK we knew darned well that Germany's driver training was WAY better than ours. Taking it to the next level are the Finns. Even the Germans go pale at the driver training and age requirements in Finland.

Driving in the US is too often treated as a right rather than a skill that must be learned and maintained. Keep on dumbing it down and pretty soon driving in the US will be as hazardous as Cairo or Athens, and that ain't pretty.

 

[duppie]

I did not say anything about all things. But in the designee of Highways and major intersections yes. As long as you give those people driver licenses and allow them to drive, you need to design highways that they can use, and use safely. The number of traffic deaths every year is staggering, and the number of people disfigured and injured is even greater, not to mention the damage to vehicles being in the tens of millions of dollars.

Clearly there are large numbers of drivers out there that cannot deal with a complicated, confusing, and ill designed circle of death. You keep driving these circles and I have no doubt you will meet many such people and I only hope you are lucky enough to survive those meetings.

Worse most areas are increasing in population so these things will become more and more crowed. In periods of heavy traffic it is bad enough going through an intersection with clearly marked stop signs or stop lights.

However, when people have no clear cut right of way and have to change lanes once or sometimes several times in a short distance while traveling fairly tight in a circle, they have to watch both sides, front and back while trying to stay in their lane. I would estimate 5 to 10 percent of the people with driver licenses are not capable of such visual acuity.

So unless you own a local body repair shop, or have stock in the local hospital, I can see little benefit to these suicide circles some people are so fond of. Now a one lane circle in a sleepily little town may work well enough, but whey you start putting these on highways and heavily trafficked multi-lane roads, you are designing a death trap.

Ever since the first autos, most states have made an effort to design safe roads and roads that are easy to navigate. These circles of death mark a change in that policy. They are not just change, they are awful change, that will end up killing and injuring many people.

Some people embrace change for change sake and think all change is automatically good. Change has to be evaluated and sometimes it is good, and recently, mostly it is bad.

Even if such a circle were more cost effective for the road builder, which compared to 4 stop signs I seriously doubt or even to a stop light, but even if it were the increased likely hood of an accident is clear to anyone that has ever used one of the dreaded things.

Interesting point of view but........

Study: U.S. Road Fatalities Down 22%; Fatal Crashes Involving Distracted Driving Increase 42% | DriveCam

So it's puts rather a pall on your thesis.It's not the roads friend it's the lack of training and distractions......how do you retro design for someone texting or on the phone?

 

[finesse_r]

I hope your driving is better than your logic

OK, if we use your assumption that the average US driver cannot deal with a roundabout, then it is no effort to extrapolate to a bunch more things they cannot handle. Here are a few other requirements to "dumb down" the roads. .

You keep changing what I said and misquoting me. Why are you doing that?

I indicated it was my opinion that 5 to 10 percent of the drivers could not handle the suicide circles you seem bound and determined to defend. Nowhere did I claim the average driver could not deal with a circle of death. However just because most can deal with it, does not mean they should have to deal with and it only takes a small percentage that cannot deal with them to make them unsafe. In fact if you check the speed limits on open highways in Texas was recently increased from 70 to 75 and there appears to be no negative repercussions from that.

1) No speed limits above 55mph. Many folk cannot stay in lane at that speed let alone faster. Then we have the issue of the neglect dealt out to most cars in the US by ignorant owners and the fact that not all states have inspections. On that basis alone 55mph is probably generous. .

You are certainly doing some bizarre extrapolating. But certainly there are many roads and situations where it is not safe to drive over 55 MPH, and there are clearly some where it is no problem at all.

2) Due to the frightening inability to merge we see demonstrated on freeways every day, the limit will be reduced to 35 mph wherever there is a set of on or off ramps. .

Here you go with that bizarre, totally illogical, and downright weird extrapolating again. No one has suggested such a thing and this has nothing to do with anything other than you making up fanciful and rather ignorant debating type arguments. The ramp is the place already well designed to allow for a driver to slow down to merge with the feeder streets or side streets.

3) Where interstates pass through cities, the speed limit shall be 35 mph as those cities have demanded that the junctions be way too close together for "access". .

The last part of this one does not even make sense. However, most speed limits on interstates are reduced some when they enter high traffic areas of cities for safety reasons. But a speed limit of 35 is absurd, although an actual speed of 35 would be nice in early morning or 5:00 traffic in most large cities.

I'm sure I could dream up a few more given time. .

Oh I am certain you can dream up this ***** in large steamy piles.

The simple fact is that driver training in the US is appalling. I have done a driving test in Nevada and it is a joke compared to a UK test. That said in the UK we knew darned well that Germany's driver training was WAY better than ours. Taking it to the next level are the Finns. Even the Germans go pale at the driver training and age requirements in Finland. .

So is it the US in general you have a problem with or just the drivers.

Driving in the US is too often treated as a right rather than a skill that must be learned and maintained. Keep on dumbing it down and pretty soon driving in the US will be as hazardous as Cairo or Athens, and that ain't pretty.

No one is talking about dumbing down the highways or driving requirements. We are talking about not making them intentionally unsafe, which is what the circles of death accomplish. Some how you started out complaining about our objections to traffic circles and tried to switch the topic to driving tests used in the USA compared to those of Europe.

 

[duppie]

Here are basic answers to the actual safety and decrease in accidents due to roundabouts in America by the Insurance Institute for highway safety. Open question 3.

IIHS-HLDI

Just one of many study's, all showing traffic circle decrease accidents and traffic deaths.....love them or hate them, even make up cute monikers for them but get the facts first instead of just pulling them out of thin air.

 

[mkk41]

They look cool at night!

With all those white , yellow and red sparkly bits around the outside!

 

[LVSteve]

No one is talking about dumbing down the highways or driving requirements. We are talking about not making them intentionally unsafe, which is what the circles of death accomplish. Some how you started out complaining about our objections to traffic circles and tried to switch the topic to driving tests used in the USA compared to those of Europe.

You miss my point entirely. If you say the driving skills here are so poor that a roundabout is such a threat, I don't think it is a stretch to say that those same drivers need to be saved from themselves in the way I described. However, I suspect that it something on which we will have to agree to differ.

If you want an idea of dumbing down already happening, try this. Here in Las Vegas there is an active campaign to get rid of any stop signs where the cross traffic on a more major street does not stop. HUH!?! These are clearly marked "Cross traffic does not stop" when you come to the stop sign, so why do so many apparently feel that they have an expectation that the cross traffic WILL stop? Reading comprehension issues? Non-four-way stops cause the "does not compute" light to illuminate in what passes for their brain? I don't know the answer, but I do know that making EVERY junction a four way stop is simply ludicrous.

Then we have the other crowd who want to reduce the speed limits on ALL surface streets to 30 or 35. Why has this campaign started? Because the dumb pedestrians cannot be bothered to use the supplied crosswalks and the chances of a fatal strike from a car are way higher at 40mph plus than at 30 mph. The body count has spiked massively in the last 18 months or so and "something must be done". Yeah, where have we heard that before. Mind you, this is the city that thinks it is smart to slap a crosswalk across a 3+3 lane 45mph street where there is no light so you know that none of Einstein's progeny are involved.

Now consider that the major surface streets here are often three or four lanes in each direction and run for 25-30 miles E/W and N/S to cover the whole valley. The reason this speed limit thing does not wash is the sheer size of the area and the fact that it is extremely poorly served by freeways. It would essentially split the valley and probably ghetto-ise (I made that word up) parts of it. But, some brain donors are pushing it.

 

[finesse_r]

Here are basic answers to the actual safety and decrease in accidents due to roundabouts in America by the Insurance Institute for highway safety. Open question 3.

IIHS-HLDI

Just one of many study's, all showing traffic circle decrease accidents and traffic deaths.....love them or hate them, even make up cute monikers for them but get the facts first instead of just pulling them out of thin air.

The article keeps referring to some vague studies but does not actually reference who did the studies and what the parameters were. Looks like some real hype to promote suicide circles to me. If that internet article is to be believed suicide circles are the greatest thing to come along since sliced bread. I have driven a few of them and that is all I need to know to doubt all those so-called unnamed studies. Color me dubious at best.

Anyone can say studies support anything. Obama just reported polls indicated 90 percent of Americans wanted more gun control. Unfortunately for him most Americans were out buying guns and ammo in record numbers at the time. So much for unspecified studies and polls.

 

[duppie]

The article keeps referring to some vague studies but does not actually reference who did the studies and what the parameters were. Looks like some real hype to promote suicide circles to me. If that internet article is to be believed suicide circles are the greatest thing to come along since sliced bread. I have driven a few of them and that is all I need to know to doubt all those so-called unnamed studies. Color me dubious at best.

Anyone can say studies support anything. Obama just reported polls indicated 90 percent of Americans wanted more gun control. Unfortunately for him most Americans were out buying guns and ammo in record numbers at the time. So much for unspecified studies and polls.

Are you really that delusional? now it's just getting sad. Please look up the IIHS or just Google" Accident statistics for traffic circles in America".If you had bothered to click on the reference numbers listed, you will also find the study's authors who are all searchable.
Even better since you're so adept at quoting percentages, why don't you link any studies by a reputable source showing that Traffic Circles is responsible for an increase in accidents and fatalities....I'm sure we'll all be waiting to be informed by your unimpeachable sources.

 

[Marshwheeling]

If you consider there are about 45,000 traffic deaths a year in the USA, how many people driving on the roads out there do you think can or do "drive better than the typical chimp with an opposable thumb"? Clearly roads should be designed to accommodate all drivers not just those who have exceptional skills.

I guess you missed my point, which was that the bar is set pretty low. If it is still too high, public transportation is an option.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I've heard a related observation, there are three types of people with relations to numbers: those who understand mathematics and those who don't.

A mathematician would say that there are 10 kinds of people: those who understand binary notation and those who don't.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

As for Rome...don't even try, they don't have a concept of lanes or the general laws of physics.

Hey, if you don't like the way they drive in Rome, stay off the sidewalk.

 

[gator68]

Roundabouts rock! Way better than 4 way stops. I've seen them combined with lights to handle multilane traffic.