what if catridge with no powder was shot

[David Sinko]

A few years ago I was shooting a match with my 625. I remember the bullet was the Berry 185 gr. HBRN, the goofy RN plated bullet with the hollow base that is supposed to duplicate the profile of 230 gr. ball. I don't remember what powder I was using, but I know it was supposed to be loaded to 130 PF. So I shoot and as far as I can tell the gun goes click, so I shoot again and make a perfect head shot. After I unload and show clear, the range officer nervously tells me that all the bystanders heard the primer pop but I was shooting so fast that he couldn't stop me before I fired the next shot. Well, they all have electronic hearing protection and I don't so I start to think. I didn't hear the primer pop or I would've stopped, so I try to figure out what happend. The offending case was black with soot so something fired but there was no recoil at all and it felt like a misfire. I can't prove it, but I suspect I somehow loaded one without powder (I don't remember if it was on the 550 or the 650). It obviously cleared the forcing cone and I must've shot it out with the next round. That next round went where it was supposed to go and nothing felt out of place when I shot. No part of my 625 was damaged at all. I don't suggest you make a habit of it, but it seems it is possible to screw up big time and get away with it.

Dave Sinko

 

[jepp2]

The only "squib" I have ever encountered was with factory ammo. It was Remington 22 Jet and was fired in a Model 53 S&W. It did lodge the bullet about 1 inch down the barrel from the cylinder. Well beyond the forcing cone. From the sound, I believe it had no powder only the primer. And with the smaller diameter, I would expect it to go further down the barrel than a larger case/caliber.

I have read many times that you can't weigh your finished rounds to check for proper powder loading. Folks always say the bullets and brass vary too much. For pistol, that isn't my experience. I have checked the weights of finished rounds and have not found the variation of bullets and brass to be enough to not allow me to check for proper powder charge. YMMV. I AM NOT suggesting this should be your practice, just sharing some data that at least for the loaded cartridges I weighed, I did not see what others have stated many time.

 

[ancient-one]

After I get fifty powdered in the block I look with a light for any variations. It does not take long and leaves no doubt.

 

[Andy Griffith]

Also, not to change the subject but light loads and jacketed bullets usually end up with squibs.

When a new reloader puts together a load meant for a cast or swaged bullet, and substitutes a jacketed bullet instead the result is usually a ringed barrel.

 

[oldRoger]

A friends uncle tried to sell me a very nice M27, beautiful gun, except had a nice bulge, no, not a ring a definite bulge almost exactly half way down the barrel, looked like a new factory S&W feature..
He was a sheriff's deputy and the trustees at the jail reloaded their range ammunition, except sometimes they "missed" the powder, and sometimes the officer missed the pop no bang.

Watch closely if your eyes are open sometimes you see a lack of smoke, that is usually what other people notice, be sensitive to recoil, and listen as well as you can.

I have found that with lead bullets and light loads of Bullseye (2.7-3.0) it is very hard to sort for no powder by weight, unless you do a lot of presorting and grouping.
So if I think I missed one I pull a lot of bullets. Shaking never worked for me but I am from the old no earplug school (not any longer, back then who knew?).

Oh, and the skirts will separate from a 148 gr, HBWC, and may cause the same problem. The skirt comes off, next bullet stops, and bamm!

In an auto loader, frequently the barrel will split rather then ring, in rapid fire drills sometimes you can't stop quickly enough, and your day is ruined.

 

[Ceapea]

I've had the experience. I was shooting a friend's reloads and I fired a round. Instead of "boom" I heard a soft "pfft". The bullet lodged halfway into the forcing cone, locking the cylinder. We were able to push the bullet back into the chamber with a cleaning rod.

This happened to me too...three times! One was a 38 spl., it made it into the barrel, so I could have pulled off another one, but didn't. Second one was a 380 ACP that went half way into the 3.5" barrel. The third was a 45 in my then new, Sig P220, it also went half way down the barrel. In all cases, I was aware of the failure and was able to stop shooting in time. In two of the instances, it got the range officer moving and yelling for me to stop.
I discovered the 45 blockage alone as I didn't see a hole where it was supposed to be! Luckily, I was shooting at a relatively clean target.

As a side, but somewhat related note, I found out that my procedure for charging and seating is different than most. From what I've read, most people load the powder charge into the cases and put them into the loading block. Once they have 50 or 100 in the block, they seat the bullets. I guess that this is necessary when using a progressive press, or at least a turret press. Since I never read that, that is "the" way to do it, I don't. It was/is more natural for me to take the prepped cases and charge the case and seat the individual bullet in one step. This is of course working with a single stage press, so I guess that is the reason. It does seem like that would be a little more "safe", as I would like to think that, and try to, check each case as it leaves the powder drop on it's way to the seating die.
Good info here. Thanks.

 

[gwalchmai]

I've had the experience. I was shooting a friend's reloads and I fired a round. Instead of "boom" I heard a soft "pfft". The bullet lodged halfway into the forcing cone, locking the cylinder. We were able to push the bullet back into the chamber with a cleaning rod.

That sounds pretty scary. Has that guy blown himself up yet?

 

[Ceapea]

After my post above, I read several more times, in this thread, that even people using single stage presses fill up a loading block with charged cases. I may be wrong, being new, and I don't want to develop bad habits, but it makes more sense to me to charge the case, look at it as I move it to the press and seat the bullet, one at a time. This is just a naturally occurring motion for me. I do use loading blocks, but I set up my prepped cases in one (primer up), and put the completed rounds in another. Am I doing something wrong? Am I setting myself up for some unforeseen to me, problem?

 

[gwalchmai]

As a side, but somewhat related note, I found out that my procedure for charging and seating is different than most. From what I've read, most people load the powder charge into the cases and put them into the loading block. Once they have 50 or 100 in the block, they seat the bullets. I guess that this is necessary when using a progressive press, or at least a turret press.

With a progressive, the empty case enters the first station and a finished round exits the last. Loading blocks are not used at all.

When using a single stage, it's easier (for me at least) to charge the entire block as one step and then seat them all in another step, then crimp in a final step. That gives several points at which to check powder - when charging each round, a group inspection in the block after they're all charged, and then one more as the bullet is placed into the case mouth.

 

[Ceapea]

With a progressive, the empty case enters the first station and a finished round exits the last. Loading blocks are not used at all.

When using a single stage, it's easier (for me at least) to charge the entire block as one step and then seat them all in another step, then crimp in a final step. That gives several points at which to check powder - when charging each round, a group inspection in the block after they're all charged, and then one more as the bullet is placed into the case mouth.

I guess that I should have thought about the progressive press not needing the blocks. So you perform the crimp separately from the seating process. Are you using a factory crimping die (Lee?) or something? I have been seating and crimping at the same time but have been thinking about getting the factory crimp dies.

 

[gwalchmai]

I guess that I should have thought about the progressive press not needing the blocks. So you perform the crimp separately from the seating process. Are you using a factory crimping die (Lee?) or something? I have been seating and crimping at the same time but have been thinking about getting the factory crimp dies.

Yes, opinions differ, but it seems to work better for me to crimp in a separate step.

I used the Lee FCD for a while, and it's OK for jacketed rounds. I found though that the Redding Profile Crimp Dies work better for lead boolits.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I have seen squibs stuck in the forcing cone many times. I shoot Cowboy Action, and we get some reloaders who are always searching for the lowest possible loads. We also get some new reloaders who manage to forget to put any powder in the cartridge.

Generally speaking, when this happens, and just the primer fires, the bullet gets about halfway into the forcing cone and actually locks up the revolver, because the bullet is blocking the cylinder from turning for another shot. Not all the time, but most times. I always have some brass rods and a hammer with me and have driven many bullets back down out of the forcing cone and into the chamber. Then we remove the cylinder and pull out the spent case and bullet. These are single action revolvers, so the cylinder pops right out when you pull the cylinder pin, but the procedure would be similar for a DA revolver, and yes, I once had to drive a bullet out of the forcing cone at the range for a guy with a DA Smith.

Regarding loading blocks and a single stage, when I used to use a single stage press I used the TWO BLOCKS method. It makes things much more foolproof. Keep two blocks one on the left and one on the right of the press. For every operation that you do; decap/size, prime, bell, etc, pass the shell from the block on the left, through the press, to the block on the right. At the end of every operation, the cases on the right will all have had the operation done to them. It is almost foolproof. Same thing with charging with powder. One block on the left of the powder measure, one on the right. Only cases with powder in them will show up on the right hand block. Before seating ANY bullets, check up and down each row with a bright light, making sure there is powder in each case. Only takes about twenty seconds to check 50 cases. Do charge all cases with powder before seating bullets, don't charge and seat, just check all 50 for powder, it will be much simpler.

If you are loading more than 50 at a time, get multiple blocks. When I first started loading I made up about 7 blocks for 45 Colt, so I could keep on loading.

P.S. I generally load on a Hornady Lock & Load AP progressive press these days. I almost always just use a regular, standard seating/crimp die. I have never (except for Black Powder 44-40) felt the need for a separate crimp die. Getting good crimps with a standard seating/crimp die is simply a matter of setting the die properly in the first place. I load 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Auto Rim, 44 Special, and 38 Special with a regular seating/crimp die without the need of a separate crimp die.

 

[Ceapea]

Howdy

I have seen squibs stuck in the forcing cone many times. I shoot Cowboy Action, and we get some reloaders who are always searching for the lowest possible loads. We also get some new reloaders who manage to forget to put any powder in the cartridge.

Generally speaking, when this happens, and just the primer fires, the bullet gets about halfway into the forcing cone and actually locks up the revolver, because the bullet is blocking the cylinder from turning for another shot. Not all the time, but most times. I always have some brass rods and a hammer with me and have driven many bullets back down out of the forcing cone and into the chamber. Then we remove the cylinder and pull out the spent case and bullet. These are single action revolvers, so the cylinder pops right out when you pull the cylinder pin, but the procedure would be similar for a DA revolver, and yes, I once had to drive a bullet out of the forcing cone at the range for a guy with a DA Smith.

Regarding loading blocks and a single stage, when I used to use a single stage press I used the TWO BLOCKS method. It makes things much more foolproof. Keep two blocks one on the left and one on the right of the press. For every operation that you do; decap/size, prime, bell, etc, pass the shell from the block on the left, through the press, to the block on the right. At the end of every operation, the cases on the right will all have had the operation done to them. It is almost foolproof. Same thing with charging with powder. One block on the left of the powder measure, one on the right. Only cases with powder in them will show up on the right hand block. Before seating ANY bullets, check up and down each row with a bright light, making sure there is powder in each case. Only takes about twenty seconds to check 50 cases. Do charge all cases with powder before seating bullets, don't charge and seat, just check all 50 for powder, it will be much simpler.

If you are loading more than 50 at a time, get multiple blocks. When I first started loading I made up about 7 blocks for 45 Colt, so I could keep on loading.

P.S. I generally load on a Hornady Lock & Load AP progressive press these days. I almost always just use a regular, standard seating/crimp die. I have never (except for Black Powder 44-40) felt the need for a separate crimp die. Getting good crimps with a standard seating/crimp die is simply a matter of setting the die properly in the first place. I load 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Auto Rim, 44 Special, and 38 Special with a regular seating/crimp die without the need of a separate crimp die.

I have three loading blocks at this time. I have been using a similar method to yours, utilizing the blocks for different phases of the loading process. After I clean my brass and prime them, I usually put them into a block (primer up again) and set them aside. Then I charge and seat them, putting the completed rounds in one of the other blocks. I will give it a go at charging all of the cases before seating. It does seem like a little time could be saved by staying with one process 'til done.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

You are on the right track, but use the blocks as I described, one on each side of the press or powder measure. Move each case from the full block on the left to the empty block on the right as it is processed. Primed cases with the primer up is good, it lets you see what you have done. Next step, bell them and place them primer down, again, it lets you know what you have done. Next step over to the powder measure, this time they obviously have to stay primer down. Then the Old Eyeball test, then finally back over to the press for bullet seating and crimp.

 

[knotbrush]

I've had two squibs in 9mm, both from the same batch. Since then, I vowed to never have another and set up a lighted web cam on my progressive press to display the powder charge on a monitor I can easily glance at, and it records every charged case. I place the finished cartridges in order in a plastic box and quickly review the video in fast-forward if there is an inkling of a low powder charge.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

"....set up a lighted web cam on my progressive press to display the powder charge on a monitor I can easily glance at, and it records every charged case."

Howdy

Now that's high tech! I have a bright light mounted next to my press and peer into every case before I seat a bullet, to make sure there is powder there. But I really like your idea. Less neck strain.

 

[Jeff423]

My suggestion: Use a progressive press with a powder check die.
(one of the reasons I moved from a SDB to a 650)

Jeff

 

[Fishslayer]

I fired a powderless .357 with a CCI Small Pistol primer & 158gr LSWC. The boolit stuck in the CB gap. It made a kinda "Pffffft." Very obvious something was wrong.

If a bullet sticks in the barrel & ya don't catch it, bad things happen.

 

[Gun Smoke]

I had it happen with a brand new S&W 1911....bought 2 boxes of reloaded no name range ammo and the first box shot fine but into the second box my son was shooting the pistol and had a fail to feed...I looked at it and tried to chamber a factory round and it wouldnt go into battery either so I put the gun up and shot other pistols that trip...When I took the gun apart to figure out what was wrong it was easy to see the problem was a bullet lodged in the barrel......Thanks be to God that bullet didn't go down another 1/8th inch which would have allowed the next round to chamber and fire leading to a KA-BOOM...I will no longer buy reloads from the range and only shoot the ones I load and am sure of....My son and I both learned a lesson that day and when shooting now if ANYTHING feels wrong to stop firing and see what the problem is !!!...

 

[Murdock]

Unfortunately, I speak from deep experience with this squib thing.

For over 20 years I used a Lee Progressive 1000 in .45ACP. I had high confidence in the quality of the loads this press threw because it had done well for me for over two decades. One of the reasons I use a progressive is that it makes it more difficult to fail to throw a powder charge.

But it happens. Recently I experienced a problem where my powder measure was randomly sticking in the charge position, and was not returning to rest under spring tension. I had loaded the batch to use in a defensive shooting school in a neighboring state.

Simple wear? I'm not sure, but the press did serve me well for over 20 years and about 35,000 rounds. Be that as it may, about one round in every 10 or 12 was bad. I randomly checked my loaded rounds for feeding and firing at my backyard range after loading about 800 rounds, but did not catch the problem.

This caused me major difficulty at the school. I brought two 1911s with me to the course, in case one broke, and both failed early in the second day of training. Quite honestly, I didn't think to stick my little finger into the chamber to check for a squib. I thought I was just getting failures to feed, and glancing at the open end of the chamber, I couldn't see anything there.

Because of the pace and pressure of the course I couldn't take the time to analyze the problem. The "experts" at the course all told me my problem was that 1911s won't feed SWC bullets, and that I needed to buy a plastic gun to correct the problem. Sure. OK.

I borrowed a plastic 9mm from somebody just to finish the course. There wasn't any rhubarb pie to get the taste of shame and humiliation out of my mouth.

In my 1911s the squibs would prevent the feeding of the next round, because the bullets would stick in the throat as they began to engage the rifling.

The bullet puller is very, very tedious.

Anyway, I switched to a Dillon 650 and immediately added the optional low/high powder sensor to it. I also notice that I can see the cases much better in the Dillon, which helps a great deal with visual verification.