What in the wide world of sports is going on here

[mtgianni]

GE bought a company my former employer dealt with a lot. Our new rep said GE wanted a new product out every five years in a limited market of gas utilities. We told our rep we would never consider buying a product with a less than 10 year track record as it would stay in the field for 20-25 years in most cases. I retired before they answered back.
Point being if you are not putting out new products in some areas ownership believes you are not doing your job.
Contrast that with Mueller who has put the same line stopping equipment out since the later part of the 19th century, with updates being modern materials. They are the most respected company in the industry.

 

[venomballistics]

Sad thing about the .270 is it took so many years to finally produce a 140 grain bullet. If the new boutique cartridges make money they will stay. If not, they will go. Try to find any of the Winchester short magnums in a store. Not happening. But one can still find 243, 270, 30-06, 308, 300 Win mag, and 22-250. Hunting in the lower 48 not much else is needed. I handload, so My go to is a 264 Win Mag pre 64 Westerner.

The physics of it is unchanged... Legal requirements have prompted the creation of a few new drillings.
350 legend, for example, was created to address length restrictions and straight wall requirements, while being a functional cartridge in the AR 15.
Even outside it's target regions, it ticks a few interesting boxes, making it well worth some consideration.

 

[rockquarry]

There is no shortage of newschoolers, gadgeteers, upgraders, and YouTube disciples comprising the ranks, so new cartridges and new everything else will continue to be introduced. There's always a ready market even if the "new" is really no better or not as good as the "old".

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

I guess I need to get rid of my Sako in 222 Remington... it's so passe.

John

 

[mrchick]

I guess I need to get rid of my Sako in 222 Remington... it's so passe.

John

I used to shoot my grandfather’s .222 Sako Vixen. It was a tack-driver. I had to settle for a Remington 700 in .222. It’s a great cartridge.

 

[Gamecock]

22 Creedmoor and 22 ARC have merit.

I've just got a dozen other unfinished gun projects to get sorted before I take on more.

 

[A10]

I'm still waiting for the 4.5mm Crochet.....

 

[CH4]

Must have made sense to someone, I reckon.....

More beans, Mr. Taggart?

Thanks, I'll stick with the 223 and 22-250. Being a 6.5mm nut, I did fall for the 6.5 CM. Great round for medium length actions that duplicates the ballistics of the venerable swede. Besides the longer neck, it's basically a 260 Rem.

 

[DWalt]

I used to shoot my grandfather’s .222 Sako Vixen. It was a tack-driver. I had to settle for a Remington 700 in .222. It’s a great cartridge.

It's been awhile since I had a .222 rifle, and even then ammo and cases for it were becoming scarce as the .223 had taken over. I have formed .222 cases from .223 brass, still have the .222 dies.

Personally, I can't come up with a good reason why anyone would prefer using the ,222 over the .223 given the choice. At one time the .222 was a preferred bench rest shooting caliber, doubt it still is.

 

[rockquarry]

It's been awhile since I had a .222 rifle, and even then ammo and cases for it were becoming scarce as the .223 had taken over. I have formed .222 cases from .223 brass, still have the .222 dies.

Personally, I can't come up with a good reason why anyone would prefer using the ,222 over the .223 given the choice. At one time the .222 was a preferred bench rest shooting caliber, doubt it still is.

You certainly make a valid point.

The preference for the .222 might be because of the trim, "sized just right for the cartridge" Sako actions. Also, the older Sakos are much nicer guns than most of those available today for the .223 cartridge and there are still a lot of them around, but you can also get the Sakos in the .223 chambering. Many of the .222 Sakos were purchased long before there was a .223.

I've never had a problem finding .222 brass, but I haven't looked for any recently.

 

[Skeet 028]

I find 222 brass at almost eery gun show. I must have a thousand pieces...about half never fired. I think I may have 5 boxes of new Herters The 222 is without a doubt more accurate than the majority of 223s...Lower pressure velocity last longer too. To be honest the 222 mag is a better round than both. I sold my 22-250 as the 222 mag does most of what it'll do...not knocking the 223. It will do just fine for most shooters and is a 25-50 yard longer shooter than the 222 maybe depending on rifle and wind. I have found the 223 to not be quite as accurate as it's predecessors

 

[DWalt]

Seems as though the preferred .22 bench rest cartridge at present is the .22 BR, which is a necked-down version of the 6mm BR. Basically both are necked down and shortened .308 cases with very sharp shoulders. Back nearly 50 years ago when I shot bench rest, it seemed that most BR shooters used either the .222 or the .308, with a smattering of oddball wildcats and other factory calibers like the .243 Win. I personally used the 6.5x55 Swede, and did fairly well with it. Things change with time.

Regarding the accuracy (which really should be called grouping capability) of the .222 vs. the .223, there is not enough performance difference to be worth arguing over unless you are in the bench rest game. There can be little argument that the .223 is preferable for shooting at longer distances. Sort of like the .222 eclipsed the .22 Hornet back in the early days of varmint hunting because you could nail those varmints a lot further out with a .222.

Regarding the availability of .222 brass and ammunition, it is currently available and probably will be for awhile, it is just not nearly as widely distributed as the .223. However, other than possibly for custom and some foreign made rifles, no common American factory rifles have been chambered in .222 recently. That does not bode well for future ammunition availability. It should be considered as being an obsolescent cartridge, at least as a factory loading. I have read that some owners of .222 rifles have had them rechambered to .223. While that is probably feasible and even a good idea, I do not personally know of any such modified rifles.

 

[Gamecock]

Regarding the accuracy (which really should be called grouping capability)

Amen.

It is called precision.

A gazillion gun rags report "accuracy" for their test guns, and show a chart with PRECISION.

Grouping is precision; accuracy is how close you come to the point of aim.

 

[DWalt]

I try to make that distinction clear at every opportunity. Accuracy means simply that you can hit what you aim at. Any rifle that will hit an elephant at 20 paces is accurate, at least to the extent you connected with the elephant instead of missing it. If you aim at his right eye and hit it, that is precision. One of my pet peeves is the confusion of accuracy with precision because it is so commonly seen in writings that concern shooting. Hitting in the black is accuracy. Putting all shots in the X ring is precision. Shooting and hitting clay birds requires accuracy. Shooting a winning bench rest target requires precision. You can be accurate without being precise. You can be precise but inaccurate.

 

[M29since14]

Hey you guys pickin’ on the .222… Watch out for lightning strikes.

I’ve rarely had any trouble buying .222 brass or loaded ammo. Yeah, the .223 is everywhere - just like white cars. If that’s what you like, that’s great for you. You’ll find what you want and you’ll simplify production schedules for manufacturers. I’d be more enthusiastic about a walnut stocked .222 every time over a plastic stocked .223.

I used to have an old friend who was quite a rifleman and experimenter. He loved doing the high-volume prairie dog shooting when that was in its heyday. He thought the .223 was a bit of a joke for anything except “army guns” - neither fish nor fowl. He preferred his .222s (with 55 grain bullets) for closer shots and used them the most, and he had .22-250s, .220 Swifts, and .243s for longer shots. He always kept two .222s, set up similarly, and alternated between them as they heated up. He particularly liked the Swift, which he loaded with 60 grain bullets, and those were his last two rifles (a Ruger, that he was not really happy with, and then finally a Rem 700). He knew his way around a rifle and I learned a lot listening to him. RIP Neil, my friend.

 

[IAM Rand]

Interesting argument between accuracy and precision. To me, accuracy is out of the control of the jerk behind the trigger so to speak. If you strap a rifle to a table and press the trigger firing 5 rounds at 100 yards, what you get is how accurate the rifle is. That will change with ammo but, the human factor in not to be accounted in this equation.

Precision on the other had is a combination of the rifle and the person holding the rifle. Again, ammo is a factor but, if you take ammo out of the equation then you have just the 2 factors.

It is kinda funny though, when you look at the definition of accuracy and precision, they define each other.

Accuracy: the quality or state of being correct or precise.
Precision: the quality, condition, or fact of being exact and accurate.

I guess the other thing that I didn't take into account when I started this thread is that the cartridge that I grew up on is one of those cartridges taken from something else, 270 WCF, a necked down 30-06. The 7mm Rem mag and the 300 Win mag taken from the 375 H&H.

I guess that it will always be the way of the world that something new comes from something old.

 

[6GUNSONLY]

There was a trend back in the 70s where manufacturers of all types, including gunmakers, seemed to be trying to standardize, simplify, and eliminate all but the best sellers. Now it seems to be a headlong rush in the other direction - infinite variations and choices.

 

[Shibadog]

So I was just perusing the internet when I came across the 22 Creedmoor. Shut the front door. Did we really need anther 22. Then while looking at the Creedmoor I see the 22 ARC. Huh, what, I blinked and another 22. Then while researching both of them I see the 6mm Max. bebebebebebebebebbebebe (me running my finger up and down between my lips).

I understand wildcatting and coming up with new round but, I think that some people need to have their blood tested for lead. People be going crazy. I thought I went a bit 2 far with getting the 6 ARC in my stable until I took it deer hunting here in CO.

REALLY, where is all this coming from. If I was an ammo manufacturer I would be pulling out my hair. It seem that they are already having issues keeping up with the main cartridges out there in pistol and rifle, especially with all the wars, um er, conflicts going on around the world.

Is this just re-inventing the wheel without really making it that much better? What is going to be the longevity of all of these cartridges? I just don't know about all this. I need to stop blinking, every time I do there in another new cartridge. Talking about a cartridge war. It used to be about size but, the other way. Now it is about who can get the smallest/fastest.

New cartridges primarily exist to create new market $$ for the industry. Ponder this-if every single new cartridge developed in the past 25 years disappeared, would there really be any “hole” in weapons capability? ‘ Course not. The most popular handgun cartridges ALL were invented well over 100 years ago. Rifles are similar, with all truly popular rounds (exception 6.5Creedmoor) being at least 50 yrs old, and the only thing the Creedmoor does that the 100+ yr old 6.5 X 55 Swede doesn’t is fit in a shorter action. The 30 Super Carry isn’t much more than a 7.65 French long (which itself is just a .30 Pederson. Even the army’s new Uber cartridge doesn’t add much to what the 1920’s vintage 276 Pederson provided and it has to run at what, almost twice the pressure for the gain it does provide. Face it. Physics hasn’t changed.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Hey you guys pickin’ on the .222… Watch out for lightning strikes.

I’ve rarely had any trouble buying .222 brass or loaded ammo. Yeah, the .223 is everywhere - just like white cars. If that’s what you like, that’s great for you. You’ll find what you want and you’ll simplify production schedules for manufacturers. I’d be more enthusiastic about a walnut stocked .222 every time over a plastic stocked .223.

I used to have an old friend who was quite a rifleman and experimenter. He loved doing the high-volume prairie dog shooting when that was in its heyday. He thought the .223 was a bit of a joke for anything except “army guns” - neither fish nor fowl. He preferred his .222s (with 55 grain bullets) for closer shots and used them the most, and he had .22-250s, .220 Swifts, and .243s for longer shots. He always kept two .222s, set up similarly, and alternated between them as they heated up. He particularly liked the Swift, which he loaded with 60 grain bullets, and those were his last two rifles (a Ruger, that he was not really happy with, and then finally a Rem 700). He knew his way around a rifle and I learned a lot listening to him. RIP Neil, my friend.

The "Tripple Duce" is a great round and I would have liked one in my collection but
the 300 yard plus shots and usually a 10 mph breeze, here in Nevada
made me go to the 22-250 for those longer shots, that a cci or stinger, would not handle.

In my mind, any .22 center fire is a great round, for lots of things.

 

[Imissedagain]

The ballistics of the 22 Creedmoor are pretty neat and hard to beat, when it comes to a large case with .224" heavy bullets.
Brass is about $1/case.
If and when I rebarrel the No.1V in 223 Rem, that might be interesting.
The 6.5 Creedmoor is another possibility.
But I like calibers that start with 22 and 45.
Have one in 458 WinMag.

We have three 5.56 ARs and one Colt is getting a Geissele SSP trigger to see how accurate it is.
My '79 OEM SP1 was good for 1.5" at 100yds, with the Colt 3X,
prone or elbows on bench.
Would swap to a longer high end barrel if one ragged hole is possible with the 6920.
Ruger AR is 1:8 and the Colts are 1:7.

Pic with called flyer at 100yds, elbows on bench,
Styer SL with set triggers and 20" barrel.
Usually 5 in a ragged hole but stopped after the
miss that day. Point of aim capable if I didn't drink
a couple of Coladas.

Hope the new owner is shooting the stems and dropping
each grape into a hungry friend's mouth at distance.

Point of aim was right on the bottom of the
thin orange V that the two touch.

Bear beer might be better.