What Is It??

[Zilmo]

I found this shell casing on an uninhabited island in the Caribbean about thirty years ago. The only animals on the island were small goats. The bore measures about .440. Can anyone tell me what it is and from approximately when? Surely one of you pro's has an idea?

 

[scottaschultz]

The site below has rarely let me down, but I am afraid it is little or no help on this one. Sorry.

http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/headstampcodes.htm

Scott

 

[Zilmo]

I'm being told it may be French 11mm from the 1880's.

 

[Alk8944]

From the rebated rim it appears to be a Mauser A-Base case and likely an 11.15x60mm Rimmed AKA 11mm or .43 Mauser. Bullet diameter, paper patched, was .446. There have not been a lot of other cartridges with that radiused rebate except the Mauser series. Can't tell you anything about the headstamp except it is from February 1883. The cartridge was used by the German military from 1871 clear into WWII! Primary use was curtailed aprox. 1888, but there was significant use during WWI and by the German version of the Home Guard int WWII.

 

[Zilmo]

Thanks. I saw it laying in the dirt on the hillside as I was exploring and it caught my eye. I was sure it could tell a story.

 

[walnutred]

Doesn't the 43 Spanish/Remington also use a Mauser A base style case? It's been so long sinse I made any I forget. Anyway, the 43 Spanish would make more sense than a 1 Mauser.

 

[n4zov]

The 9th edition of "Cartridges of the World" show a number of old European military cartridges with rebated rims that look similar to your photos. Do you know if the island belonged to any European nation now or in the past?

 

[Dr.-d]

Measure the case length in metrics. I believe it is French, 11x59R French Gras. A French military cartridge. Appears to look the closest to that. A side note that the Japanese 11mm Murata 11x60mm. A Japanese military cartridgeis similiar as the case length in metrics is 59.6mm and was based a lot on the French cartridge. This cartridge was manufactured also outside of Japan. There are other possibilities but measured case length in metrics would be a start along with rim diameter and neck diameter all in metrics would really narrow it down.

 

[2152hq]

The 'ART' stamp is French. It indicates the round(s) are for military use. All I can find for 'Px' is "unknown French Ammunition Factory"

Hope this helps.

 

[Erich]

(This is so neat! )

 

[38-44HD45]

I'm assuming that the rebated rim must be an adaptation to help prevent rimlock during feeding from a magazine, a real problem with rimmed cartridges in mag-fed firearms. Anyone know if there is a different explanation? Cool find!

 

[Zilmo]

Measure the case length in metrics. I believe it is French, 11x59R French Gras. A French military cartridge. Appears to look the closest to that. A side note that the Japanese 11mm Murata 11x60mm. A Japanese military cartridgeis similiar as the case length in metrics is 59.6mm and was based a lot on the French cartridge. This cartridge was manufactured also outside of Japan. There are other possibilities but measured case length in metrics would be a start along with rim diameter and neck diameter all in metrics would really narrow it down.

OK, here are the measurements to the best of my ability:

OAL: 2.350 ------59.690 mm
Case: .542 ------13.766mm
Head: .660 ------16.764 mm
Bore: .440 ------11.176mm

 

[Dr.-d]

I'll give you what I got on both the 11x59R Gras and the 11x60R Murata. This is all according to "Military Rifle and Machine Gun Cartridges- By Jean Huon" 11x59R Gras as followed, Bullet diameter:11.25mm,Neck Diameter:11.81mm,Base diameter:13.73mm,Rim Diameter:16.82mm,Case length 59mm,Total length 76.7mm. Wieght:43.9gr. Now the 11x60R Murata. Bullet Diameter: 11.22mm,Neck Diameter :11.75mm,Base Diameter: 13.68mm,Rim Diameter:16.71mm,Case length:50.6mm,Total Length:56.7mm,Wieght:21.7gr. Both these cartridges are Metric and This reference book gives dimensions in Metrics. "Cartridges Of The World By Frank C. Barnes/ Edited by Stan Skinner" Gives measurements for both these in "Standard/English" They are as follows 11mm French Gras, Bullet Diameter .445,Neck Diameter .468, Shoulder Diameter .531, Base Diameter .544, Rim Diameter .667, Rim thickness .075, Case length 2.34, Cartridge length 3.00. 11mm Murata, Bullet diameter .432,Neck diameter .465, Shoulder diameter .526, Base diameter .542, Rim diameter .632, Case length 2.36, Cartridge length 3.13. Keeping in mind you have a fired case and that measurements will be different than a fresh cartridge. Another contributer has identified markings as French and even with all the digesting and comparision of diameters etc. and taking in account everything of where you found it and some information written about the 11x59R French Gras in "Military Rifle and Machine Gun Cartridges" that it was issued to some reserve troops as late as 1939 and that Greece and some African and Middle Eastern countries used it as well. That is probably what you have.

 

[haggis]

I agree with Dr.-d that's it's a model 1874 11x59R Gras. Cartridge data in Cartridges for Collectors, Volume 1, by Fred Datig, give almost exactly the same case dimensions as measured. It's also the exact same case (w/flat rim) as the 11x59R Vickers British heavy machine gun round except the latter is non-paper-patched. Identical commercial cases from the period include the G. Roth #69 (called an 11.15x60R) and the DWM #38 (11.10x60R).


Buck

 

[Zilmo]

Thank-you gents.