ChuckS1
US Veteran
Like that's not a factor in today's military...
What is your take on George Armstrong Custer?
- Thread starter jphendren
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Stephen Ambrose, author of "Band of Brothers" and "Citizen Solders" also wrote a book called "Crazy Horse and Custer." His historical presentation of Custer was not at all flattering. If Ambrose's account is true, Custer was about the furthest thing from an American hero.
Clearly the subject of this thread is of interest. A century and a third after the event, we are still talking about it.
I tend to give great weight to the opinions and insights of his contemporaries. After the Little Big Horn, both General Sheridan and President Grant, who knew him well, considered the disaster completely of Custer's own doing. Reno was acquitted in a court martial. Benteen continued in a successful military career. If there was any attempt at scapegoating, it clearly didn't work.
The consensus opinion I get from the posts above is pretty close to the loose opinion I had formed from casual reading over the last few decades: A showboat with more self-esteem than was warranted, incapable of really understanding his enemy, underinformed about the dimensions of the threat in his vicinity, unable to evaluate the possibility that his perceptions might be mistaken, quick to adopt tactics that no one would have pursued with a realistic understanding of the situation, and too trusting of his own reputation for cavalry smarts.
A business strategist once told me, "It's a bad plan that can't be changed." Custer launched a plan involving divided forces that left him no way to change direction when things started to go wrong.
A complete tragedy.
I tend to give great weight to the opinions and insights of his contemporaries. After the Little Big Horn, both General Sheridan and President Grant, who knew him well, considered the disaster completely of Custer's own doing. Reno was acquitted in a court martial. Benteen continued in a successful military career. If there was any attempt at scapegoating, it clearly didn't work.
The consensus opinion I get from the posts above is pretty close to the loose opinion I had formed from casual reading over the last few decades: A showboat with more self-esteem than was warranted, incapable of really understanding his enemy, underinformed about the dimensions of the threat in his vicinity, unable to evaluate the possibility that his perceptions might be mistaken, quick to adopt tactics that no one would have pursued with a realistic understanding of the situation, and too trusting of his own reputation for cavalry smarts.
A business strategist once told me, "It's a bad plan that can't be changed." Custer launched a plan involving divided forces that left him no way to change direction when things started to go wrong.
A complete tragedy.
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I have not read this entire thread, so forgive any repetition.
Some ramblings, perhaps interesting.....
In my past, I was a bibliophile. In the 80's, I was a dealer of mild noteriety in rare/out of print sporting books. I became very enthralled in Custer's Last Fight. At that time- the 80's it was widely stated that only one other battle in history had more books written specifically about it than the Little big Horn- Waterloo.
Regrettably, most of my library is currently in storage. I still have my Little Big Horn collection, which included every book to that date about the battle. One of those books is an 1876 Congressional Record, with the brief report on the battle, and a foldout map of the battlefield marked with the original burials.
Find the books by Marquis. He was a doctor on the rez, and interviewed MANY of the Sioux participants.
My opinions-
The troopers were not outgunned. That is a common myth, perpetuated in part to remove and alleviate the shock and panic induced by the news that the greatest army on earth had just suffered the worst defeat against Indians in its entire history, and the news reached the east during the CENTENNIAL celebration on July 4th!!! The US was a HUNDRED years old, and just got WHUPPED by the stone age!
Sure, they may have had the odd Winchester here or there, but, actually, the best weapons they had were a few Trapdoors and Colts taken on the Rosebud the month before.
If you read the Indians' accounts, they figured out very quickly they did not have to die that day. They walked or crawled up the gullies, and fired volleys of arrows at high arcs. Pull out your copy of "Gladiator" or "Braveheart" and see how that works. Remember, the troopers did not have shields to make a "Turtle", and their horses were mostly dead on the ground, so they could not get under them. BTW- WHAT must go through a CAVALRY trooper's mind when the order comes to shoot your horse for cover? I bet it is something like "This ain't goin good at all...."
There is some good evidence that perhaps more than a dozen troopers from the Grays committed mass suicide when that troop became somewhat isolated from the main force.
The Indians Marquis interviewed said the battle on Custer Hill lasted "about the time it takes a man to eat his dinner".
Reno's performance is very puzzling. He had a valiant record from the Civil War (sic). The man had no less than FIVE horses shot out from under him. It is well known he despised Custer. Custer had him make the initial assult across the creek, PROMISING to "support him". That assault was halted by a gully, and the fiasco of Reno's actions began.
Benteen was the hero of the day. Period
Custer was a narcissist, it is true. He was surrounded by a corps of sycophants his entire career.
He was much favored by fate and circumstance in the civil war. However, his bravado and bravery cannot be discounted during that war. The fact that he was in the right place at the right time, on several notable occasions, combined with the guts to "jump in, and devil take the hindmost" attitude, obtained him much glory, and instilled a sense of "destiny" in him.
His Crow scouts tried to tell him it was a "big village" because they were seeing the largest pony herd they had ever seen. Custer, even with a spyglass, could not get a grasp of how large it was. All of the village was NOT visible from his initial position. I do believe his intent was to let Reno take whatever losses he would sustain while he maneuvered for the best position to attack from.
The Crow scouts, almost to a man, chose to slip away, and live another day.......
Utter Trivia-
I grew up in Atlanta. In my neighborhood was Benteen elementary school. It was my understanding that Col Benteen had donated the land for the school. I remember an old man tottering around the neighborhood on a cain, wearing a campaign hat, that my Dad addressed as "Capt. Benteen". He was the son of the Col that served under Custer. My Dad bought the land our house was on from Capt. Benteen. I don't remember seeing him but a very few times in my very early years, and my Dad telling me he was "a soldier". I remember he and my Dad speaking once, and I was chided to "be quiet, and listen to this gentleman". He died when I was rather young. I have better memories of a rather crotchety old lady that lived two blocks away when riding my bike. She would often yell at us if we rode too close to her "bushes". Her name was Anita Benteen Mitchell, the daughter of the Capt. Before her name became Mitchell, her future husband, a rather well known Atlanta attorney, had handled the sale of the land to my Dad. His name was Stephens Mitchell. He had a sister named Margaret that wrote some book about the Wind.....
Some ramblings, perhaps interesting.....
In my past, I was a bibliophile. In the 80's, I was a dealer of mild noteriety in rare/out of print sporting books. I became very enthralled in Custer's Last Fight. At that time- the 80's it was widely stated that only one other battle in history had more books written specifically about it than the Little big Horn- Waterloo.
Regrettably, most of my library is currently in storage. I still have my Little Big Horn collection, which included every book to that date about the battle. One of those books is an 1876 Congressional Record, with the brief report on the battle, and a foldout map of the battlefield marked with the original burials.
Find the books by Marquis. He was a doctor on the rez, and interviewed MANY of the Sioux participants.
My opinions-
The troopers were not outgunned. That is a common myth, perpetuated in part to remove and alleviate the shock and panic induced by the news that the greatest army on earth had just suffered the worst defeat against Indians in its entire history, and the news reached the east during the CENTENNIAL celebration on July 4th!!! The US was a HUNDRED years old, and just got WHUPPED by the stone age!
Sure, they may have had the odd Winchester here or there, but, actually, the best weapons they had were a few Trapdoors and Colts taken on the Rosebud the month before.
If you read the Indians' accounts, they figured out very quickly they did not have to die that day. They walked or crawled up the gullies, and fired volleys of arrows at high arcs. Pull out your copy of "Gladiator" or "Braveheart" and see how that works. Remember, the troopers did not have shields to make a "Turtle", and their horses were mostly dead on the ground, so they could not get under them. BTW- WHAT must go through a CAVALRY trooper's mind when the order comes to shoot your horse for cover? I bet it is something like "This ain't goin good at all...."
There is some good evidence that perhaps more than a dozen troopers from the Grays committed mass suicide when that troop became somewhat isolated from the main force.
The Indians Marquis interviewed said the battle on Custer Hill lasted "about the time it takes a man to eat his dinner".
Reno's performance is very puzzling. He had a valiant record from the Civil War (sic). The man had no less than FIVE horses shot out from under him. It is well known he despised Custer. Custer had him make the initial assult across the creek, PROMISING to "support him". That assault was halted by a gully, and the fiasco of Reno's actions began.
Benteen was the hero of the day. Period
Custer was a narcissist, it is true. He was surrounded by a corps of sycophants his entire career.
He was much favored by fate and circumstance in the civil war. However, his bravado and bravery cannot be discounted during that war. The fact that he was in the right place at the right time, on several notable occasions, combined with the guts to "jump in, and devil take the hindmost" attitude, obtained him much glory, and instilled a sense of "destiny" in him.
His Crow scouts tried to tell him it was a "big village" because they were seeing the largest pony herd they had ever seen. Custer, even with a spyglass, could not get a grasp of how large it was. All of the village was NOT visible from his initial position. I do believe his intent was to let Reno take whatever losses he would sustain while he maneuvered for the best position to attack from.
The Crow scouts, almost to a man, chose to slip away, and live another day.......
Utter Trivia-
I grew up in Atlanta. In my neighborhood was Benteen elementary school. It was my understanding that Col Benteen had donated the land for the school. I remember an old man tottering around the neighborhood on a cain, wearing a campaign hat, that my Dad addressed as "Capt. Benteen". He was the son of the Col that served under Custer. My Dad bought the land our house was on from Capt. Benteen. I don't remember seeing him but a very few times in my very early years, and my Dad telling me he was "a soldier". I remember he and my Dad speaking once, and I was chided to "be quiet, and listen to this gentleman". He died when I was rather young. I have better memories of a rather crotchety old lady that lived two blocks away when riding my bike. She would often yell at us if we rode too close to her "bushes". Her name was Anita Benteen Mitchell, the daughter of the Capt. Before her name became Mitchell, her future husband, a rather well known Atlanta attorney, had handled the sale of the land to my Dad. His name was Stephens Mitchell. He had a sister named Margaret that wrote some book about the Wind.....
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One more note-
I love Ambrose for his entertaining style, but his book on Crazy Horse and Custer, is, IMO, merely whimsical, entertaining, anecdotal rambling, AT BEST. There are far better accounts to spend your time on.
I love Ambrose for his entertaining style, but his book on Crazy Horse and Custer, is, IMO, merely whimsical, entertaining, anecdotal rambling, AT BEST. There are far better accounts to spend your time on.
Gun-runner
Member
I'd have to say he was a "typical ring knocker". He got what he deserved but unfortunately his men didn't.
Bullseye 2620
Member
A Lakotah Perspective
Let me add just a couple of observations based on my reading, and especially, my many conversations with Lakotah and Dakotah elders on the Cheyenne River, Sisseton-Wahpeton, and other so-called "Sioux" reservations in South Dakota.
Custer apparently stumbled onto a Wiyang Wacipi (Sundance), the most sacred ceremony in the life of these tribes, and may have encountered up to as many as 25,000 "Sioux," as well as members of other Northern Plains tribes (e.g., Cheyenne) who shared the same religious ceremonies.
"Sioux" anger at Custer (who had once been regarded as a friend) was immense, and they blamed him for invading the sacred Paha Sapa (Black Hills) in 1874 to pacify the area thus permitting the establishment of gold mining operations, all of this in violation of the 1868 Fort Laramie Treaty.
To this day, the United States Army still carries on its standard a battle pennant commemorating the massacre of innocents at Wounded Knee in 1890, this a deliberate act of revenge for the defeat at the Greasy Grass (Little Big Horn). This glorification of that slaughter remains an indelible stain on the reputation of the United States Army, and will remain so until that battle pennant is removed and destroyed, and the Medals of Honor awarded to some of the participants in that shameful massacre, rescinded.
Hoka Hey!
Bullseye
Let me add just a couple of observations based on my reading, and especially, my many conversations with Lakotah and Dakotah elders on the Cheyenne River, Sisseton-Wahpeton, and other so-called "Sioux" reservations in South Dakota.
Custer apparently stumbled onto a Wiyang Wacipi (Sundance), the most sacred ceremony in the life of these tribes, and may have encountered up to as many as 25,000 "Sioux," as well as members of other Northern Plains tribes (e.g., Cheyenne) who shared the same religious ceremonies.
"Sioux" anger at Custer (who had once been regarded as a friend) was immense, and they blamed him for invading the sacred Paha Sapa (Black Hills) in 1874 to pacify the area thus permitting the establishment of gold mining operations, all of this in violation of the 1868 Fort Laramie Treaty.
To this day, the United States Army still carries on its standard a battle pennant commemorating the massacre of innocents at Wounded Knee in 1890, this a deliberate act of revenge for the defeat at the Greasy Grass (Little Big Horn). This glorification of that slaughter remains an indelible stain on the reputation of the United States Army, and will remain so until that battle pennant is removed and destroyed, and the Medals of Honor awarded to some of the participants in that shameful massacre, rescinded.
Hoka Hey!
Bullseye
reddogge
Member
When visiting the battlefield one cannot comprehend the size and scope of the running battle they fought to get to "last stand hill". Soldiers were scattering in all directions from the river to the top of the ridge and there are grave markers scattered over the whole area in all directions. Some stayed together and made it to the hill and died there with Custer.
One factor in the trapdoor rifles they used was their extra ammo was in their saddlebags on the horses which were taken back to the rear so they were woefully short of ammo.
Here's a shot of the last stand but the battle raged way off the picture to the left for at least 1/2 mile or better all the way from the river where the trees are.
One factor in the trapdoor rifles they used was their extra ammo was in their saddlebags on the horses which were taken back to the rear so they were woefully short of ammo.
Here's a shot of the last stand but the battle raged way off the picture to the left for at least 1/2 mile or better all the way from the river where the trees are.
Attachments
Ray
Member
The book Handejector refers to was written by Dr. Thomas B. Marquis based on interviews he did with several warriors that were in the LBH battle.He worked in the resevations, hence he had direct contact with the indians. He was told that several soldiers turned weapons one another and shot themselves, probably out of fear of being captured and tortured.The book´s name is "Keep the Last Bullet for Yourself".
Regards, Ray.
Regards, Ray.
Big Cholla
Member
jphrenden: I have visited the "Last Stand" site twice and have read extensively of the battle and of Custer's prior military career. I recommend for your reading, "Custer's First Sargent" by John Ryan. It is available on Amazon or at the memorial's bookstore. That book gives a personal perspective on the Custer personality that is either omitted from some histories or is over emphasized in others, IMHO.
My personal summation of the situation; Big Ego makes multiple mistakes in trying to solve the wrong problem. ...... Big Cholla
My personal summation of the situation; Big Ego makes multiple mistakes in trying to solve the wrong problem. ...... Big Cholla
mwtdvm
Member
[QUOTE
My personal summation of the situation; Big Ego makes multiple mistakes in trying to solve the wrong problem. ...... Big Cholla[/QUOTE]
I have not heard a better description of a lot of the FUBARS that have occurred in the last 100 years..
My personal summation of the situation; Big Ego makes multiple mistakes in trying to solve the wrong problem. ...... Big Cholla[/QUOTE]
I have not heard a better description of a lot of the FUBARS that have occurred in the last 100 years..
Jim Kuykendall
Member
Ditto on what Handejector said.
Custer was the vision of the "Boy General". It's true, he left the artillery back home. Has that much really change since the Indian Wars?
Not yet recognized was the fact that the many brass cartridges were carried in loops and were corroded with green Verdigris caused by the leather.Hence them failing to eject from the Trapdoor action.
Custer was the vision of the "Boy General". It's true, he left the artillery back home. Has that much really change since the Indian Wars?
Not yet recognized was the fact that the many brass cartridges were carried in loops and were corroded with green Verdigris caused by the leather.Hence them failing to eject from the Trapdoor action.
BLACKHAWKNJ
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There is another good book entitled "Custer in "76" by Walter Mason Camp, 1867-1925. It is notes he compiled from interviews with surviving participants, unfortunately he died before he could compile them into a narrative. The Scout Curley said no one interviewed him as closely as Camp.
Custer fought a very poor battle. He was suppose to perform a scouting and intelligence function, instead he tried to win more glory for himself. He divided his forces in the face of the enemy, they could not support each other, the terrain was too open for a proper defense, he had no idea of the numbers he was facing. Also he seems to have had contempt for the enemy, always a bad thing. I read Marquis' book, he noted that the 7th had a reputation as an "Indian fighting" outfit, but the only time they had actually fought Indians was at the "Battle" of the Washita in 1868, then the Black Hills expedition of 1873 which was actaully fairly peaceful. Marquis questions how many veterans of those earlier actions were still on active duty in 1876, and how good the men of the 7th really were.
Custer fought a very poor battle. He was suppose to perform a scouting and intelligence function, instead he tried to win more glory for himself. He divided his forces in the face of the enemy, they could not support each other, the terrain was too open for a proper defense, he had no idea of the numbers he was facing. Also he seems to have had contempt for the enemy, always a bad thing. I read Marquis' book, he noted that the 7th had a reputation as an "Indian fighting" outfit, but the only time they had actually fought Indians was at the "Battle" of the Washita in 1868, then the Black Hills expedition of 1873 which was actaully fairly peaceful. Marquis questions how many veterans of those earlier actions were still on active duty in 1876, and how good the men of the 7th really were.
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bobsdad
US Veteran
I live fairly near, and have visited seveal times, the Rock Island Arsenal Museum. Back in the late 1980's it was known as the Johnathan Browning Museum at the Rock Island Arsenal. At that time they had a display of various small arms used by the 7th Cavalry along with six rifles identified as used by the Indians at the Little Big Horn. These Indian weapons were identified by using firing pin indent and land and groove castings. This was made possible after an extensive prairie fire at the Little Big Horn in 1983 allowed a fruitful archeological examination of the site (metal detectors, etc.). Spent casings and bullets were mapped and these Indian rifles were matched to those items (and actually tracked around the battle area - Reno Hill and Last Stand Hill in some cases)! These weapons were those confiscated from the Indians over the years and found their way to the Arsenal. I'm not sure whether the museum still has these weapons on display today. I'm going to check that out and report back. But, they do also have a large display of U.S. military small arms going back a couple of hundred years. These include some s/n 1 pieces and some experimental wild stuff as well as many others. It used to be worth a visit and I hope it still is. I'll find out.
By the way, the six Indian rifles were: New Model 1869 Sharps carbine, Modl 1874 Sharps carbine, New Model 1859 Sharps carbine, Model 1870 Springfield carbine, Model 1870 Springfield rifle, and Model 1873 Winchester rifle. They actually tested some of these old weapons. There was a full report written. I have a copy. It was titled "The Indian Guns of the Little Big Horn", by Kris Leinicke.
In addition, here is a link to a seven page report on the weapons used by General Custer's men at the Little Big Horn: Lone Star Rifle Company Houston, Texas
By the way, the six Indian rifles were: New Model 1869 Sharps carbine, Modl 1874 Sharps carbine, New Model 1859 Sharps carbine, Model 1870 Springfield carbine, Model 1870 Springfield rifle, and Model 1873 Winchester rifle. They actually tested some of these old weapons. There was a full report written. I have a copy. It was titled "The Indian Guns of the Little Big Horn", by Kris Leinicke.
In addition, here is a link to a seven page report on the weapons used by General Custer's men at the Little Big Horn: Lone Star Rifle Company Houston, Texas
bobsdad
US Veteran
Faulkner
Member
Looks like Custer had his visions of grandour of being president way too soon. Being a military hero obviously benefited a number of past and future presidents including George Washington, Andy Jackson, US Grant, and even Teddy Roosevelt and Eisenhower later on.
Yep, he was robbed of his destiny . . . if he'd only won.
Yep, he was robbed of his destiny . . . if he'd only won.
S&WIowegan
US Veteran
Rather than offer an opinion on the big question, I'll point out that the .45 Government ammo that was issued for the Springfields was made of soft copper cases. As many of you will know, blackpowder befouls weapons very quickly. When the Springfields got crudded up, the copper cases stuck in the chambers, the extractors would just tear through the rims and a useless rifle existed. Try to place yourself in a troopers' mind as the enemy comes from all sides, your rifle is useless and your Colt 1873 is slow to reload. Against overwhelming numbers....NO CHANCE!!!
The one thing you can say for sure about Custer is...he was not a coward.
The one thing you can say for sure about Custer is...he was not a coward.
Bad Data
Lots of misinformation is being posted here on the weapons and ammo used by the 7th Cavalry at the Battle of the Little Bighorn.
1. The US Army in 1876 was not using Allen Conversion 50-70 Rifles or Carbines at the battle. The 7th had the newest Model 1873 Springfield Breech Loading Carbines in 45-70. Capt. Thomas French who Commanded Co. M of the 7th had with him at the battle a personal owned Model 1868 Springfield 50-70 Rifle. This was not a converted rifle like the Model 1866 Springfield.
2. It is true that the 45-70 ammo was cooper cased. Yes, the guns heat up after a number of rounds are fired. Many people believe that due to this heating up of the barrel and chamber the cooper would expand and stick in the chamber and the case head would be ripped off by the ejector stud. This is simply not true. The 45-70 ammo was issued to the troops in May when they left Fort Lincoln. The troops made there own leather looped cartridge belts. They could carry more ammo on there body and spread it out more evenly then keeping the rounds in the belt mounted M1874 Dyer pouch that only holds 25 rounds. The cooper cases reacted with the chemical tanned leather loops and belts and formed the green stick substance called verdigrises. Buy the time the 7th had rode from Fort Lincoln to the Bighorn Valley the cartridges had a large amount of verdigrises on them and they also had been exposed to much dirt. The heating of the guns melted the verdigrises and this stuck the cases in the chambers. Some accounts state that only after firing one round some Troopers had spend cases get stuck in the carbine. If the Troopers had kept the ammo clean they would not have had such a problem. Yes, the cooper cased 45-70 ammo was a folded case which means the whole case was folded into shape from a single sheet of cooper which is softer then brass.
After the battle the Army Ordinance Department studied this and Lt. Anson Mills of the 5th Cavalry had his patterned Mills Pattern canvas cartridge belt adopted in 1876. It was not until 1877 that these belt became issued in large numbers. The canvas did not react with the cooper cases and the Army used the cooper cased 45-70 ammo well into them 1890's.
Lots of misinformation is being posted here on the weapons and ammo used by the 7th Cavalry at the Battle of the Little Bighorn.
1. The US Army in 1876 was not using Allen Conversion 50-70 Rifles or Carbines at the battle. The 7th had the newest Model 1873 Springfield Breech Loading Carbines in 45-70. Capt. Thomas French who Commanded Co. M of the 7th had with him at the battle a personal owned Model 1868 Springfield 50-70 Rifle. This was not a converted rifle like the Model 1866 Springfield.
2. It is true that the 45-70 ammo was cooper cased. Yes, the guns heat up after a number of rounds are fired. Many people believe that due to this heating up of the barrel and chamber the cooper would expand and stick in the chamber and the case head would be ripped off by the ejector stud. This is simply not true. The 45-70 ammo was issued to the troops in May when they left Fort Lincoln. The troops made there own leather looped cartridge belts. They could carry more ammo on there body and spread it out more evenly then keeping the rounds in the belt mounted M1874 Dyer pouch that only holds 25 rounds. The cooper cases reacted with the chemical tanned leather loops and belts and formed the green stick substance called verdigrises. Buy the time the 7th had rode from Fort Lincoln to the Bighorn Valley the cartridges had a large amount of verdigrises on them and they also had been exposed to much dirt. The heating of the guns melted the verdigrises and this stuck the cases in the chambers. Some accounts state that only after firing one round some Troopers had spend cases get stuck in the carbine. If the Troopers had kept the ammo clean they would not have had such a problem. Yes, the cooper cased 45-70 ammo was a folded case which means the whole case was folded into shape from a single sheet of cooper which is softer then brass.
After the battle the Army Ordinance Department studied this and Lt. Anson Mills of the 5th Cavalry had his patterned Mills Pattern canvas cartridge belt adopted in 1876. It was not until 1877 that these belt became issued in large numbers. The canvas did not react with the cooper cases and the Army used the cooper cased 45-70 ammo well into them 1890's.
George Custer and William Westmoreland -- same over inflated ego, 100 years apart, innocent soldiers dead because they know better.
