ltcdoty
Member
One of the reasons for the development of the web Mills belt was the after-action report of Custer's defeat on the Little Big Horn.
What is your take on George Armstrong Custer?
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One of the reasons for the development of the web Mills belt was the after-action report of Custer's defeat on the Little Big Horn.
ltcdoty
Member
I work as a curator at a military museum, and a good friend of mine, Brian Pohanka, who some of you may have seen as a talking head on the TV series, " Civil War Journals ". told me an intriguing story about George Custer. One of Brian's great interest was the battle at the Little Big Horn.
He told me that the records show that when Custer's body was recovered , he was buried in a grave along with his brother Tom. Each man had an empty shell case place in their mouths with a piece of paper identifying them.
A year or so later when it was decided to recover the officer's bodies , and inter the enlisted men in a common grave, the body that was identified as General Custer was removed from a grave that had only contained a single body.
This body was reburied at the cemetery at West Point. Brian said that there is a good possibility that the body at West Point is an unidentified enlisted man. Kind of ironic...oh Brian Pohanka died way too early several year ago. A good friend and a great historian
He told me that the records show that when Custer's body was recovered , he was buried in a grave along with his brother Tom. Each man had an empty shell case place in their mouths with a piece of paper identifying them.
A year or so later when it was decided to recover the officer's bodies , and inter the enlisted men in a common grave, the body that was identified as General Custer was removed from a grave that had only contained a single body.
This body was reburied at the cemetery at West Point. Brian said that there is a good possibility that the body at West Point is an unidentified enlisted man. Kind of ironic...oh Brian Pohanka died way too early several year ago. A good friend and a great historian
Snapping Twig
Member
Looking at it with the filter of today's realities - armchair quarterbacking -
I can only say that IMO, this is a classic case of fighting the last war during the current one.
Too many errors to allow any decent hope of success. Custer didn't study his enemy and therefore didn't "know him".
Hubris - never a good ally was a full partner.
Armament, not sufficient for the task, but not knowing the enemy, Custer didn't know this.
I tend to side with the natives to a degree, but I love America too. Screwing over the Indians was NFG, but like I said earlier, armchair quarterbacking with today's realities is different than being on the ground in the day.
The lesson to me is not to disdain AND underestimate your opponent - it never ends well.
I can only say that IMO, this is a classic case of fighting the last war during the current one.
Too many errors to allow any decent hope of success. Custer didn't study his enemy and therefore didn't "know him".
Hubris - never a good ally was a full partner.
Armament, not sufficient for the task, but not knowing the enemy, Custer didn't know this.
I tend to side with the natives to a degree, but I love America too. Screwing over the Indians was NFG, but like I said earlier, armchair quarterbacking with today's realities is different than being on the ground in the day.
The lesson to me is not to disdain AND underestimate your opponent - it never ends well.
RE: the jammed cases in the carbines.. Capt French was cited by his men for moving under fire during the Reno fight on the bluff, and using the cleaning rod from his "long tom" rifle to drive the verdigris jammed cases from his troopers carbines.
Then there is the tale of Trooper Slaper's boot heel. That battle was the source of more stories than any other twice it's size.
Then there is the tale of Trooper Slaper's boot heel. That battle was the source of more stories than any other twice it's size.
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cmort666
Member
I see him so frequently on the various History and Discovery Channels that I had no idea that he'd died. Too bad. I'll miss him almost as much as Ian Hogg.
I am really sorry to hear this too (as this is the first I've heard of this loss) and 50 is waaaaaaay to young to go. I really enjoyed learning from him (on TV).
R.I.P.
BLACKHAWKNJ
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I read (forget where of course) that the copper (not brass) 45-70 case used were too soft, often the extractor would pull the head off and there was no issued stuck case remover at the time. After the Little Big Horn a brass case was adopted and a stuck case remover was issued.
I met Brian Pohanka in 1991 at the Cedar Creek reenactment, he was there with the 5th New York-Duryee's Zouaves.
I wouldn't compare Custer with Westmoreland, Custer didn't have to put
with LBJ and McNamara micromanaging the conflict. Westmoreland was in the same position that most German generals were in WWII-a highly paid NCO.
I have read that more has been written about the Little Big Horn than about Gettysburg, no doubt because the absence of after action reports from the 7th-and the Indians-allowed a lot of people to fill the gap with their own questionable scholarship.
I met Brian Pohanka in 1991 at the Cedar Creek reenactment, he was there with the 5th New York-Duryee's Zouaves.
I wouldn't compare Custer with Westmoreland, Custer didn't have to put
with LBJ and McNamara micromanaging the conflict. Westmoreland was in the same position that most German generals were in WWII-a highly paid NCO.
I have read that more has been written about the Little Big Horn than about Gettysburg, no doubt because the absence of after action reports from the 7th-and the Indians-allowed a lot of people to fill the gap with their own questionable scholarship.
When I think of G.A. Custer, the words Over Confidient and Under Armed come to mind. Also the word Idiot comes to mind. In four years in the US Army, I saw lots of Patton and Custer wannabes, suprisingly the West Point Grads were the last to be this way.
Rule 303
Rule 303
The soldier's burden
There were many Civil War era "boy generals"----and there were others, during 1876, who contributed to the Custer debacle-How about that Rosebud battle.
The politicians sent the 7th into that mess. If not for these soldiers we would be missing a few states. The American Indian was a resourceful, tough combatant-but they could not fight the conventional war. By 1901 we were fielding some of the best trained soldiers in the world-
This was not the only unit that was left on its own-for what ever reason-blunders in intelligence, poor leadership and so on. WW1's lost battalion, WW2 the Phillipines, Task Force Smith-Korea, and Vietnam-same thing.
Surely, our political hero's won't needlessly sacrifice trops in the current theaters of war.
There were many Civil War era "boy generals"----and there were others, during 1876, who contributed to the Custer debacle-How about that Rosebud battle.
The politicians sent the 7th into that mess. If not for these soldiers we would be missing a few states. The American Indian was a resourceful, tough combatant-but they could not fight the conventional war. By 1901 we were fielding some of the best trained soldiers in the world-
This was not the only unit that was left on its own-for what ever reason-blunders in intelligence, poor leadership and so on. WW1's lost battalion, WW2 the Phillipines, Task Force Smith-Korea, and Vietnam-same thing.
Surely, our political hero's won't needlessly sacrifice trops in the current theaters of war.
feralmerril
Absent Comrade
Its hard for me to pass judgement after 134 years. Heck, thats the year my grandpa was born. There have been a ton of movies made, probley not much truth in any of them.
The mindset on indians back then was far different than now. I doubt any of it was PC. I have read how general sherman backed buffalo hunting to starve the indians to death.
Anytime one race uses torture it generates a lot of hate. Veterans still hate japanese, also north vietnam etc.
We hated iraq when saddom had his own people gassed, thrown off roofs and the beheadings. The hatred lasts forever for those that have witnessed the tortures, but soon the liberal PC crowd takes over the public thinking of people who wasnt around or 4,000 miles away when it happened.
The indians were into torture back then. There was little PC compared to now. I imagine a lot of people didnt consider indians human back then. Why else would soliders commit suicide rather than surrender? I cant seriously belive custer belived only women, kids and old people were there. That isnt beliveable at all! Now I do belive he knew some would be present. Likely most old people would have stayed on the res I would guess. As I said earlier in my old post, I belive custer was so embolden by past victorys in both the civil war and past indian battles he felt invincable and was sure the indians would mostly panic and run. Also he wanted to make a name for himself to sweep the presidency. I really dont think it was as complicated as we are makeing it to be. Egotistical and ambitious. Also those indians just didnt behave like he thought they would.
The mindset on indians back then was far different than now. I doubt any of it was PC. I have read how general sherman backed buffalo hunting to starve the indians to death.
Anytime one race uses torture it generates a lot of hate. Veterans still hate japanese, also north vietnam etc.
We hated iraq when saddom had his own people gassed, thrown off roofs and the beheadings. The hatred lasts forever for those that have witnessed the tortures, but soon the liberal PC crowd takes over the public thinking of people who wasnt around or 4,000 miles away when it happened.
The indians were into torture back then. There was little PC compared to now. I imagine a lot of people didnt consider indians human back then. Why else would soliders commit suicide rather than surrender? I cant seriously belive custer belived only women, kids and old people were there. That isnt beliveable at all! Now I do belive he knew some would be present. Likely most old people would have stayed on the res I would guess. As I said earlier in my old post, I belive custer was so embolden by past victorys in both the civil war and past indian battles he felt invincable and was sure the indians would mostly panic and run. Also he wanted to make a name for himself to sweep the presidency. I really dont think it was as complicated as we are makeing it to be. Egotistical and ambitious. Also those indians just didnt behave like he thought they would.
BLACKHAWKNJ
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Much if not most of the action in the Indian Wars would be called "ethnic cleansing" today, an attempt to remove undesireable people from desireable real estate-cf the "Trail of Tears" the Cherokess had to endure.
The attitude towards the Indians was they were "sub-humans"-they probably thought the same thing about their enemies, hence attacking villages was considered a legitimate tactic and strategic ploy-cf the "Battle" of the Washita in 1868.
I am pretty right wing but I did not object when in 1991 the Custer Battlefield was renamed the Little Big Horn Battlefield. Battlefields are rarely named after one of the commanders and defnitely not the losing commander. One of the few battles/campaigns I can think of that is names after a commande-in this case, a sucessful one-is the Brusilov Offensive of 1916.
The attitude towards the Indians was they were "sub-humans"-they probably thought the same thing about their enemies, hence attacking villages was considered a legitimate tactic and strategic ploy-cf the "Battle" of the Washita in 1868.
I am pretty right wing but I did not object when in 1991 the Custer Battlefield was renamed the Little Big Horn Battlefield. Battlefields are rarely named after one of the commanders and defnitely not the losing commander. One of the few battles/campaigns I can think of that is names after a commande-in this case, a sucessful one-is the Brusilov Offensive of 1916.
Best thing is to walk the field over the years in all seasons and read, read, read. We're supposed to learn from history. We hardly ever do.
Last time I was up there the movie "We Were Soldiers" had just come out. The park ranger giving the talk was retired USA, and looked and talked EXACTLY like Sgt. Plumley. Had a hell of a fine conversation with him after he talked to the thundering herd.
I have done a few in-depth battlefield tours and always gotten a LOT out of them. If I was rich I'd spend half my time travelling the world trying to understand the history school ignored.
Last time I was up there the movie "We Were Soldiers" had just come out. The park ranger giving the talk was retired USA, and looked and talked EXACTLY like Sgt. Plumley. Had a hell of a fine conversation with him after he talked to the thundering herd.
I have done a few in-depth battlefield tours and always gotten a LOT out of them. If I was rich I'd spend half my time travelling the world trying to understand the history school ignored.
The Rational
Ohhh, probably for the same reason we destroyed the guerrillas in the Phillipines in 1902, starved the Germans in 1919, dropped thousands of tons of bombs on Holland, France, Belgium, Germany and Japan during WWII. And 90% of the detsructuion of Japanese cities was caused by fire bombings-not the atomic bombs. At the end of WW1 and II the beligerant nations still had viable armies. Soooo, guess who many of the casualties were.
A foot note: Fort Sill is, for the most part, on Indian Reservation land.
So to answer your question as to why...politicians are the cause.
Ohhh, probably for the same reason we destroyed the guerrillas in the Phillipines in 1902, starved the Germans in 1919, dropped thousands of tons of bombs on Holland, France, Belgium, Germany and Japan during WWII. And 90% of the detsructuion of Japanese cities was caused by fire bombings-not the atomic bombs. At the end of WW1 and II the beligerant nations still had viable armies. Soooo, guess who many of the casualties were.
A foot note: Fort Sill is, for the most part, on Indian Reservation land.
So to answer your question as to why...politicians are the cause.
The Highlander
Member
He's dead.
That's just my personal take on him though. I could be wrong I guess.
That's just my personal take on him though. I could be wrong I guess.
R. G. Amos
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Our current president reminds me of Custer.
george minze
Member
He was a brave if foolish man. None really know what was his or the army's mindset at the time. He was arrogant, loving family man and had a since of duty. Nobody every questioned his personal bravery. I give you Patton, MacArthur and others. So why don't we let him RIP. Remember as successful as MacArthur was there are still living veterans from the Philippines that still call him Bug Out Doug. Compared to some of our present leaders, I'll take one with courage.
Plain Old Dave
US Veteran
My take on Custer:
At best, an average tactician. A world-class publicist, though.
Interesting thought:
What if James Wilson (the only US Cavalryman to defeat Forrest in a fair fight) or Grierson or Phil Sheridan were at the Little Big Horn?
At best, an average tactician. A world-class publicist, though.
Interesting thought:
What if James Wilson (the only US Cavalryman to defeat Forrest in a fair fight) or Grierson or Phil Sheridan were at the Little Big Horn?
feralmerril
Absent Comrade
I had a marine vet friend that told me he witnessed macarther had his fancy household furniture loaded on a ship or boat, leaveing guys that could have been hauled out to be prisoners of the japs! He had no time for Macarther!
