I know it's probably been discussed before but I'm late for the discussion. I want to find out what some of y'alls preferred reload is for use in a Model 36. For most of my 38's I've traditionally used 158 gr. LSW's, HP's or TMJ's over 4.3 grains of W231. I've experienced with a lot of powders but have found this one to be generally cleaner burning. I also mold my own 148 gr. WC's and have loaded either W231 or Unique for these. I've pondered switching to the 125 grain bullets for this 2 inch snub nose. What do you guys think?
What reload?
- Thread starter jagd1305
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Personally I would stay with the 158. I load 4.9 gr 231 behind a cast 158 RNFP for 906 fps. Load straight out of my old Lyman cast bullet handbook. Very accurate and recoil not objectionable.
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I want more velocity. I think the 158 is too heavy for the 38. I use Unique with a 125 JHP in my 2" guns at a clocked 1100 FPS. I don't recall the exact powder charge but it came from a 1970s manual. Goes 1150 in a 4" gun.
Another advantage is the lighter bullets recoil less.
Another advantage is the lighter bullets recoil less.
hotrod150
Member
I tried 148 gr hardcast WC's over 4.5 W231 and 110 JHP's over 5.6 W231. The 110 gr JHP's were an attempt to find a lighter recoiling load than the 148 WC's, but I didn't notice much difference. Additionally I got a lot of muzzle flash with the JHP's, and they shot several inches low even at just 7 yards. The lube used on the hardcast 148 gr WC's resulted in a lot of smoke. I ended up trying & settling on 158 gr Speer swaged lead SWC-HP's over 4.5 W231, a standard-pressure version of the "FBI load", for all-around use.
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You can have the best of both worlds. Shoot the .38/44 load. You can get the "real deal" from Buffalo Bore Ammunition, 158 grain Keith at 1250 fps. You don't have to get in front to figure out it just went off!
I'd be right careful with them 38/44 loads in a Jframe. Just the thought makes my hand bleed!
re:
Thanks guys! I've been wanting to try to get a hold of the Keith bullet molds in 158 gr. but just haven't made the jump yet. I like using Lyman molds mostly but use Lee sometimes as well. I haven't loaded 125's in years but haven't done so because I also load for my Model 19's and I don't want to be tempted to try the 125's in them on a magnum case. I've heard the stories about this and try to stay away from that. I've used Unique before for my snubs but have experienced unburnt powder and excessive fouling. This was when I used Winchester primers. Would CCI's help on this? Anyone have some idea which bullet ballistically would be more ideal? For this I can still recall as a kid (and I'm 53 now) some LEO's carrying the 148 grain LWC's as their service loads. One of them recently told me he carried that load because it would have more punch at short range and that the HP bullet would never expand much coming out of a 2 inch barrel. Yet another retired LEO told me that the LWC made a speed loader useless and he carried HP's in his snub because his unit was once told they were at least marginally likely to not exit a body mass and cause collateral damage.
Thanks guys! I've been wanting to try to get a hold of the Keith bullet molds in 158 gr. but just haven't made the jump yet. I like using Lyman molds mostly but use Lee sometimes as well. I haven't loaded 125's in years but haven't done so because I also load for my Model 19's and I don't want to be tempted to try the 125's in them on a magnum case. I've heard the stories about this and try to stay away from that. I've used Unique before for my snubs but have experienced unburnt powder and excessive fouling. This was when I used Winchester primers. Would CCI's help on this? Anyone have some idea which bullet ballistically would be more ideal? For this I can still recall as a kid (and I'm 53 now) some LEO's carrying the 148 grain LWC's as their service loads. One of them recently told me he carried that load because it would have more punch at short range and that the HP bullet would never expand much coming out of a 2 inch barrel. Yet another retired LEO told me that the LWC made a speed loader useless and he carried HP's in his snub because his unit was once told they were at least marginally likely to not exit a body mass and cause collateral damage.
hotrod150
Member
I think there's definitely something to that. That was my thinking when I first started loading the hardcast WC's-- JHP expansion would be iffy with short barrel velocities, so just go for a full-caliber wadcutter hole & punch on through what you're shooting. I decided to compromise with the swaged SWC-HP -- should get plenty of expansion due to weight, a good hole due to the full-caliber shoulder, and hopefully some expansion due to the HP in the soft lead bullet. Maybe the FBI knew what they were talking about when they specified that load, back in the day!
hotrod150
Member
That load out of a j-frame is designed to kill out of one end & hurt out of the other! Seriously though, it sounds like a bit much for a j-frame, steel OR airweight-- about half again as much velocity as my standard pressure loads.
I've read that the classic 38/44 handload is 12.0 gr 2400 behind a 158 gr bullet-- that's 2 grains above the max +P load shown in my old Speer #10 book. Pretty hot stuff!
re:
Hotrod, he had told me that when he looked at a crime scene photo back in the 80's there had been a snub used in the shooting and that the bullet, a 158 gr. HP had exited the victim's body and went a further 5 or so feet and had not expanded any.
Hotrod, he had told me that when he looked at a crime scene photo back in the 80's there had been a snub used in the shooting and that the bullet, a 158 gr. HP had exited the victim's body and went a further 5 or so feet and had not expanded any.
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It certainly seems like what you say is conventional wisdom. Here is what Buffalo Bore says about their Outdoorsman .38/44 Load:
"38 SPL +P OUTDOORSMAN - 158 gr. Hard Cast Keith 1,250 fps - 20 Round Box
PRESS RELEASE FOR BUFFALO BORE 38 SPL +P 158gr. HARD CAST OUTDOORSMAN (ITEM 20H)
This load was designed for those who need a deep penetrating 357 mag. or 38 SPL load to be fired from lightweight alloy 357's and any 38 SPL revolver. Lightweight alloy 357's develop multiple problems when firing our 180gr. 357 mag. hard cast turbo charged (Item 19A) ammo or any make of full power 357 ammo. Yet many folks want a deep penetrating "outdoor" type of load for their lightweight pocket 357's, so here it is. Whether you are shooting gators or bears in the head, this load utilizes a hard flat nosed bullet, at sufficient velocity, even from 2 inch barrels, to fully penetrate either.
This load is safe to shoot in all 38SPL and 357 magnum firearms of modern design that are in normal operating condition. In the super lightweight alloy revolvers (around 11-12 oz.) the bullet will not jump crimp under recoil provided you do not subject an unfired round to more than 5 or 6 firings. In all steel guns, even short barreled ones, crimp jump is not an issue as the all steel snub nosed revolvers are much heavier than the alloy versions.
This load utilizes a flash retardant powder that will not blind the shooter in low light conditions, which is important as wildlife and criminals get much more active when darkness comes.
This bullet is hard cast and properly lubed and as such will not substantially lead your barrel. You should find no degradation of accuracy when firing many cylinders full of this ammo without cleaning.
We never use extra long laboratory barrels to produce our advertised velocities, which we feel is dishonest to the customer as those extra long barrels produce extra high velocities, which you cannot duplicate with stock revolvers in the real world. Instead, we use stock firearms and you can see the velocity results below.
1255 fps -- Ruger GP 100, 6 inch barrel, 357 mag.
1186 fps -- S&W Combat Masterpiece 6 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1958)
1146 fps -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel, 357 mag.
1167 fps -- S&W Mod. 15, 4 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1968)
1112 fps -- Ruger SP 101, 3 inch barrel, 38 SPL
1043 fps -- S&W Mod 66, 2.5 inch barrel, 357 mag.
989 fps -- S&W Mod 340PD, 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 357 mag.
1027 fps -- S&W Mod 642 (pre dash), 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 38 SPL"
C Broad Arrow
Member
I have J-N frames and what seems to work for me in 158 LSWC is 3.3 gns of N320 Vihtavuori in a 38 Special. Your mileage may differ.
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