What should be the appropriate thing to do in this case

[Wagonmaster]

Referring to the person who walked up to the Oklahoma City restaurant and fired several shots at the customers injuring several then was killed by two by-standers in the parking lot who ran back to their cars and returned with their hand guns.

So far those two by-standers have been herolded as heros since the shooter was discovered to be mentally disturbed and it wasn't known where he was headed next. The news reports don't describe how they knew what precisely had happened and was happening, other than the shooter had been shooting at restaurant customers.

Was this the appropriate thing for the 2 by-standers to do, and would you do the same thing? How did they determine immediately that the person was the shooter, and what if one or more of the shots fired by the by-standers had ricocheted and hit someone else?

I always Carry whenever out shopping or eating out but always wonder just what I would do in a case where I wasn't directly threatened but others were.

 

[CCHGN]

Well, let me ask you this, if you saw other people being shot or stabbed or saw a woman being raped, or 2-3 beating on 1, you're not sure what you'd do? Do you really think you could just walk away and let them be killed?

 

[Ziggy2525]

Referring to the person who walked up to the Oklahoma City restaurant and fired several shots at the customers injuring several then was killed by two by-standers in the parking lot who ran back to their cars and returned with their hand guns.

So far those two by-standers have been herolded as heros since the shooter was discovered to be mentally disturbed and it wasn't known where he was headed next. The news reports don't describe how they knew what precisely had happened and was happening, other than the shooter had been shooting at restaurant customers.

Was this the appropriate thing for the 2 by-standers to do, and would you do the same thing? How did they determine immediately that the person was the shooter, and what if one or more of the shots fired by the by-standers had ricocheted and hit someone else?

I always Carry whenever out shopping or eating out but always wonder just what I would do in a case where I wasn't directly threatened but others were.

First my disclaimer. I've never been in a self defense shooting (or any shooting).

I don't know. Going to the car to get a weapon and coming back to fight makes Oklahoma messy.

Here's how I've thought about it.

Personal violence against others:
I'm not the police. My default position is my first responsiblity is to protect my family, make it home to them each evening, and be a good witness if I see a crime. In one on one violence, you may not know who was the instigator and who is the defender.

Active Shooter:
A mass shooting is different. The bad guys should be obvious. They are the ones walking around killing innocent people. I subscribe to the "escape/barricade/defend" approach. It's a takeoff on run/hide/fight. Escape the situation with my family if I can. If I can't escape, barricade my self and family in a safe place. If I can't barricade myself and family somewhere, prepare to defend ourselves.

Oklahoma seems unique because the shooter was oblivious to what was going on around him and when the self defenders confronted him he didn't engage them. Heroic - yes. Wise - I don't know.

 

[Muss Muggins]

My obligation is to protect me and mine and our future. If I have to defend myself to escape, I will. If I escape, I'm certainly not giving someone a second chance to shoot me . . .

 

[Old cop]

I have been in a self defense shooting, three in fact, but I'm not a cop anymore and all of these were duty related situations and I was doing my job. In retirement I would have to evaluate each situation, as well as my ability to safely respond and resolve it, before acting. Every circumstance is different and should be carefully evaluated with an eye to not endangering innocents in an effort to stop a deadly threat.

 

[BAM-BAM]

I would have to evaluate each situation, as well as my ability to safely respond and resolve it, before acting. Every circumstance is different and should be carefully evaluated with an eye to not endangering innocents in an effort to stop a deadly threat.

Ditto...... don't know enough fact about that incident.... thought I heard the shooter was shot in the parking lot???????????????

 

[Scorpion520AZ]

The Dangers Of Intervention

"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread."
Alexander Pope

A CCW Permit is not a badge. The legal and lawful purpose of "civilian self-defense" is to "create distance and escape". If you decide to go beyond that you may find yourself stepping out from underneath the umbrella of protection that "civilian self-defense" laws provide. In that situation you need to be very selective, very careful, and think very hard before you act.

Evan Marshall's brief commentary, link below, is pertinent to this topic.

"I spent 20 years going in harms way for total strangers. Would I do that today? Probably not. Sound callous? Well, would you be willing to jeopardize everything you own and your family's security for a total stranger? Would you be willing to lose your home, your cars, and your retirement to play Knight of the Round Table?

Even if the situation is exactly as it appears and you're even in accordance with the law, you need to understand one simple fact-the law is what the local prosecutor says it is. Do you really want to spend 7 years in jail waiting for an appeal to be heard and your conviction overturned?

I carry a gun to protect myself and the people I love from the Monsters that roam the earth. When I'm away from those that mean everything to me, I carry so I can return to them. Are there circumstances where I would intervene to help a stranger? Yes, but such intervention would be on my terms at my pace. I am not going to jump into a situation with gun drawn."
Evan Marshall

Read Full Commentary: The Dangers Of Intervention
Commentary by Evan Marshall

 

[federali]

According to the news, the shooter was a security guard and had a license for his handgun. In theory at least, all three involved were "good guys with guns."

 

[Muss Muggins]

According to the news, the shooter was a security guard and had a license for his handgun. In theory at least, all three involved were "good guys with guns."

Well, once a "good guy with a gun" starts shooting at other good guys, his status instantly changes . . .

 

[wingriderz]

About two months ago A very small rural town in Florida ( near gansiville) Two Sheriffis officers where shot and killed threw a Resturaunt window . My answer is yes I would shoot them those bent on doing harm to others

 

[OKFC05]

Your account of the events is wildly inaccurate based on the written OKC police statement and the KOCO TV reporting.
All three people involved were CLEET trained and certified, and one of the "good guys" was a reserve deputy. Nobody ran out of the restaurant to get a gun. The shooter fired into the restaurant and ran out, where he was ordered to put down his weapon, but instead tried to shoot the other two who had armed themselves and saw him come out of the restaurant holding a gun.
Now ask a relevant question, like what would you do if you had heard shots while you are in the parking lot, and a person came out of the restaurant and aimed a gun at you? You are LEO trained.

 

[Mike in Reedley]

I'm a retired cop, and was lucky enough to have survived several shootings in my career. Even though my ID says retired now and I no longer have peace officer powers or an expectation to act, I could not stand by and do nothing in a situation like this.

I've carried a full size .45 ACP for most all of my 32 year career, the last seven years as a Detective Sergeant in a plain clothes assignment. The first few years of retirement, I enjoyed carrying J frames as my primary handgun, rather than their previous roll as a back up. With the increase in mass shootings , I'm back to carrying a Commander size 1911.

Carrying a concealed handgun doesn't guarantee you won't be the first or second victim of an active shooter. It probably will keep you from being the third or even 23 victim of such tragedies.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Without knowing the precise facts but just going by what I read here I think it is fair to say that what those folks did is authorized under normal American common law, namely, to come to the aid of third parties who are under immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury. That means anyone, anywhere, not just CHL holders.

It also means using any means necessary. A gun, a knife, stick, baseball bat, garbage can cover, rock, fists, or body tackle.

But sticking to lethal force with guns -

Suppose you're in Texas, as I am, and you can legally carry a concealed weapon in your motor vehicle without any kind of permit. If you see a guy shooting through windows don't you think that automatically justifies your reaching for your car gun to neutralize the threat? The guy is, by definition, as pointed out by Muss Muggins, a bad guy. Do you think you have to await the time when the bad guy points his weapon in your direction? Well, the law is clear - you do not have to await that time.

Texas Penal Code

Chapter 9. Justifications Excluding Criminal Responsibility

SUBCHAPTER C. PROTECTION OF PERSONS

Sec. 9.33. DEFENSE OF THIRD PERSON.

A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:

(1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and

(2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.

No copyright.

The sections referenced above Section 9.33 are, of course, the statutory self defense provisions in the Penal Code.

Just FYI - nobody says you have to but if you feel like there is an immediate need to act you are justified.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Without knowing the precise facts but just going by what I read here ...................



Suppose you're in Texas, as I am, and you can legally carry a concealed weapon in your motor vehicle without any kind of permit. If you see a guy shooting through windows don't you think that automatically justifies your reaching for your car gun to neutralize the threat?



No copyright.

The sections referenced above Section 9.33 are, of course, the statutory self defense provisions in the Penal Code.

Just FYI - nobody says you have to but if you feel like there is an immediate need to act you are justified.

I would answer NO!......... call 911? yes......... move to safety? Yes

Shoot some guy...... in the back? NO!

See there's the rub in these situations....... you're "driving by in your car"....you see guy is shooting into ''windows"....you could be just witnessing "vandalism" or destruction of his own property ...... stupid? yes but that's generally not a serious crime either.

You can't just "feel"......you need a 'reasonable belief......" your facts "as stated" don't rise to that level IMHO.......especially if you shoot him in the back!

 

[fredj338]

Well, let me ask you this, if you saw other people being shot or stabbed or saw a woman being raped, or 2-3 beating on 1, you're not sure what you'd do? Do you really think you could just walk away and let them be killed?

The issue with this direct black or white question is it is rarely black or white. I can count on my hands the number of scenarios where I know what I see is what is going happening. A guy walks into a restaurant & starts shooting, pretty much I know what I see. A beating or alleged rape, well do you really know what you see is what is happening?
So for me, my ccw is to protect me & mine. It will often be best to be a good witness & call 911. If you can be 110% sure what you are seeing is what you think it is, then stepping in would be the noble thing to do, BUT there is always the chance it goes sideways & you are into the Zimmerman affect. CCW is a huge responsibility that I am afraid many have not thought thru when they think they want to carry a gun.

 

[fredj338]

Your account of the events is wildly inaccurate based on the written OKC police statement and the KOCO TV reporting.
All three people involved were CLEET trained and certified, and one of the "good guys" was a reserve deputy. Nobody ran out of the restaurant to get a gun. The shooter fired into the restaurant and ran out, where he was ordered to put down his weapon, but instead tried to shoot the other two who had armed themselves and saw him come out of the restaurant holding a gun.
Now ask a relevant question, like what would you do if you had heard shots while you are in the parking lot, and a person came out of the restaurant and aimed a gun at you? You are LEO trained.

Devil's advocate: You hear shot fired, no idea what it is about. You are in civis, man runs out of the bldg, carrying a gun & you challenge him to stop. He attempts to defend himself & you shoot & kill him.
The man had just defended himself against two armed robbers inside & has come outside to wait for police & still carrying his gun. Another guy points a gun at him & he feels the threat is still there. You can see what I mean by you rarely know 100% of the time what you see is what is happening, especially if you are not a direct victim of the attack. CCW, no uni or even badge as good guy ID, you run the risk of being a target or shooting an innocent.
I am glad the outcome in OK was positive but it could just as easily gone sideways too.

 

[Mister X]

A quote from retired LAPD officer Robert Kolesar....

"I figure I'm the person ultimately responsible for my family's safety; that's why I still carry a gun. I'm not working the streets anymore, I'm not really concerned about what people do to each other. I won't get involved in something that's none of my business. This may sound unduly harsh or selfish, but 24 years as a cop has taught me most incidents I've observed may not be what they appear to be initially- and shouldn't rise to the level of my armed intervention. Staying out of conflict is as important as knowing how to confront someone. I'm happily prepared to call 911 or just be a good witness."

 

[Trooper224]

The only thing less wise than asking for deadly force advise online is to give deadly force advice online.

 

[CCHGN]

A CCW Permit is not a badge. The legal and lawful purpose of "civilian self-defense" is to "create distance and escape"....

That is a falacy and absolutely NOT true( Citizens have the constitutional right to make a felony arrest), but I'm glad you stated your stand, so I'll know where you'll be when the SHTF.,...in Florida, we do NOT have to retreat and I will NOT. IF there's innocents in the area, so will I be. They'll have to kill me.

I WANT to die saving an innocent life....just think of all the other ways folks die, and we all HAVE to do it. That's my choice. YMMV

 

[CCHGN]

Devil's advocate: You hear shot fired, no idea what it is about. You are in civis, man runs out of the bldg, carrying a gun & you challenge him to stop. He attempts to defend himself & you shoot & kill him.
The man had just defended himself against two armed robbers inside & has come outside to wait for police & still carrying his gun. Another guy points a gun at him & he feels the threat is still there. You can see what I mean by you rarely know 100% of the time what you see is what is happening, especially if you are not a direct victim of the attack. CCW, no uni or even badge as good guy ID, you run the risk of being a target or shooting an innocent....

That is exactly why I have decided, that as SOON as stop a threat, in one area and go to another area( outside or inside) I will immediately re-holster. I practice drawing and presenting my weapon extensively, if needed.

The fact is, there's ALOT more cases of folks getting shot, by police, like that very way. Btw, you make a good argument to get a CCW badge....lol Cops are trained to not shoot badges and NO, that is NOT impersonating a cop, that is making sure you, as a CCW and good guy, don't get mistaken for a BG and get shot by the "good guys".