What some clueful instructors carry as their defensive firearm

ChattanoogaPhil said:
Grip Force Adapter might be something worthy of consideration for those who have a Glock or want a Glock but the grip angle doesn't agree with them.

KEN HACKATHORN - GRIP FORCE ADAPTER DEMONSTRATION - YouTube

DAVE HARRINGTON - GRIP FORCE TEST AND EVALUATION - YouTube
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Why? Seriously, if a weapon needs that much help out of the box to be shootable why on Earth buy it when there are literally dozens of incredibly shootable weapons that are fine without do-dads and gee-gaws added to make them shootable?
 
I am extremely proficient with my Glocks, but I'll stick with my 442 for carry
 
two-bit cowboy said:
I'm not a semi-auto-kind-of-guy, but I try to be open minded and learn from those who have a clue.

Through this discussion I was amazed it took till post #27 to get to the logic in Rastoff's criteria -- truly the only one that counts in my mind.
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I agree. Frankly, I think there is little to choose between most modern handguns - Glock, SIG, H&K, S&W, Beretta, etc., are all reliable with good ammo under all but the most extreme conditions and mostly even then. Picking what works for you is simply a matter of personal choice and one that will not go wrong if you pick quality to start with.

The trick here is that any competent gunman should be able to shoot anything that happens to come to hand regardless of brand, mechanics or caliber. In one of the classes I've taught, we have the students divide into two teams, then place all of their guns on two tables side by side. All have loaded mags and empty chambers. Some have malfunctions built into the setup. Students start at a pylon about 50' behind the tables and, at the signal, the first runs to the table in front of them. An instructor points to the sidearm they must use. Other students are allowed to heckle and instructors often yell as well, the idea being to induce some mild level of stress. The student is required to make his gun operational, then fire one shot at a 12"x14" target at about 10 yards. If they hit the target, they set the gun back on the table, run back to the pylon and the next student goes. If they miss, they must set the gun down, run back around around the pylon, return to the table and try again. The idea here is if they can't shoot they had better learn to run. Most students hit the first shot, a few run around and around until they are about ready to drop. The team who has everyone complete the task first is the WINNER! It's a friendly competition but the point is this: everyone should be minimally competent with most any gun. We all have our favorites, we all have the ones we don't like, but in the end it really shouldn't matter. These debates about whether Glock or SIG or whatever is "better" are really kind of silly, and no one will ever win. Learn to use 'em all, carry whatever you like and you'll be all the better off.
 
"Old Die Hard 1911 Guys" instructors talking about Glocks and modifications.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7ViI2UWFKg[/ame]
 
I used to HATE Glocks. Got one from work. Didn’t shoot it well. Had the option to go to a Sig 1911 and was happy as could be.

Until the slide cracked during a qualification.

Got a Glock back. Gave up the “hate” mindset, and once I turned the mental block off, I have accepted it. It works. It works well. And has capacity for work.

Off duty, I shoot and carry revolvers. 95% of my shooting is a DA revolver. I carry either a 66, 640 or now a newly acquired 442-1. I like them. I shoot them well. And because I LIKE them, I practice with them regularly. Dry fire, empty gun reloads, speed strip reloads, “shoot 3, reload 3” drills, and weekly (unless I have to work on mondays) range trips.

I have found that learning to shoot a DA revolver well has also made me a better semiauto shooter as well.

I don’t see being a good semiauto shooter making me a better revolver shooter though.

But I’m no expert. Just some traffic cop who likes shooting and prefers revolvers.
 
PPS1980 said:
Why? Seriously, if a weapon needs that much help out of the box to be shootable why on Earth buy it when there are literally dozens of incredibly shootable weapons that are fine without do-dads and gee-gaws added to make them shootable?
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Different grips, grip accessories including grip alterations are perhaps the most popular aftermarket items sold for handguns of all types, both revolver and autoloader. Hogue... Pachmyr... on and on and on.

Many of my firearms, handguns and long guns, have different grips and stocks than 'out of the box' because they improve my performance or that of the firearm, or both.

As far as the Grip Force Adapter... it's about $20 and installs in a minute. Hardly "that much help". Not much different than swapping the backstrap on my XDs 45.

Maybe a picture of a Tyer-T grip will help put things in perspective.

oxDVlc5.png
 
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I have the wherewithal to acquire and carry any handgun that is commercially available or any custom built sidearm.

I like my personal sidearm to be familiar in feel and function.

I've carried on the job, Glocks, Sigs, P-35s, S&W autos and revolvers, etc...

My choice when the chips are down and lives are on the line,
when it's time to face the elephant and be counted,
give me a proven reliable Colt 1911.

I like the Speer Gold Dot, but really prefer Winchester Ranger 230gr +P.


.
 
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elm_creek_smith said:
I’ve had people follow me around trying to figure out what I was carrying.
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I've never seen one of those, but I sure as hell know what it is! Neat!

Protected One said:
Beginners don't know the difference between a PPK and a "nice shiny" Jennings, and will often look first at the price unless instructed otherwise.
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I'm going to go out on a real limb here.

I don't think you can walk into a gunshop and buy a bad gun anymore. I mean, I've heard Hi-Points are terrible...but I've never actually seen one for sale.

And yeah, I might ridicule Bersas and Tauruses, but every time I see somebody shooting one, the damn things work. And that's sort of all that matters on the receiving end.

PPS1980 said:
Why? Seriously, if a weapon needs that much help out of the box to be shootable why on Earth buy it when there are literally dozens of incredibly shootable weapons that are fine without do-dads and gee-gaws added to make them shootable?
Today 02:17 PM
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A rebuttal in three parts:

If you can't shoot a Glock, you can't shoot.

If you're just prefer something different, then that's different.

But hey, I guess the massive aftermarket support for the 1911, Ruger Mk II/III/IV, S&W Victory, Browning Buckmark, various Sig Sauers, and so on, all means that those guns are also unshootable pieces of garbage.

In all seriousness, if you're a legitimately talented shooter, the gun doesn't really matter.
 
Wise_A said:
I don't think you can walk into a gunshop and buy a bad gun anymore. I mean, I've heard Hi-Points are terrible...but I've never actually seen one for sale.
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For the most part you're right, but there are exceptions. You mentioned Hi-Point and Bersa (specifically the Bersa .380AUTO). Both of those are guns I would never recommend. I've seen several of both in my classes and I have yet to see one work through the entire class.

Wise_A said:
If you can't shoot a Glock, you can't shoot.
------------------
In all seriousness, if you're a legitimately talented shooter, the gun doesn't really matter.
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I both agree and disagree with this. Glock makes a good gun. That is a simple fact. But, not everyone can shoot every gun well. This is also true. Some guns just don't fit and therefore, are difficult for some to shoot well. Quality triggers definitely help shooters be more consistent and accurate. So, it boils down to what we mean when we say, "shoot" and mean it in the context of putting rounds where we want them to go.

I can shoot a Glock well enough to pass any test I've taken to date. However, I shoot my M&P with Apex FSS better. For me, I would say I don't shoot a Glock well and yes, I think it's gun related. That doesn't mean I can't shoot it at all, just not as well as I'd like.
 
Just for reference, here is a picture from a friend of mine:

attachment.php


The goal from this drill was to shoot as small a group as possible. It's called the "one ragged hole" drill. As you can see, he did better with the 1911. He's a rabid Glock fan. He's faster with the 1911, he's more accurate with the 1911, but he's still a Glock fan. Meh, his choice and he shoots the Glock well enough.
 

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And for reference--I wasn't even alive for the first Blade Runner!

Rastoff said:
For the most part you're right, but there are exceptions. You mentioned Hi-Point and Bersa (specifically the Bersa .380AUTO). Both of those are guns I would never recommend. I've seen several of both in my classes and I have yet to see one work through the entire class.
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I had an older woman with a Bersa .380 absolutely humiliate a guy with a Wilson Combat. I'd characterize her as a low-experience shooter, and I'd say that he had a lot of trigger time that served only to teach him bad habits. Specifically, he was a habitual excuse-maker.

I still wouldn't suggest the Bersa, myself.

As for Justin, I think he's taught himself some bad habits with the Glock. Take a look at that top group--he's got a perfect 3-shot cluster in there. The mechanics are present, the problem's mental.

I think there are two possible reasons:

--New Gun Syndrome, wherein he shoots better with an unfamiliar gun than an old favorite because it forces him to return to the fundamentals of shooting.

--Bad friggin' habits, wherein you spend a lot of time with a gun, slowly un-learning how to shoot it.

I'm horribly guilty of both. I shot a new personal-best with my whizz-bang BE gun, only to slump down to new lows for two seasons a few weeks later (although I know guys who own five or six high-dollar BE pistols based on this process, so maybe I'm not so bad).

As to the modifications--my point is more about people characterizing Glocks as being "unshootable" out of the box. Now, that's either a case of not fully appreciating how miserable some guns can be to shoot, or taking some rather extreme positions. Naturally, I don't think I can shoot all my guns equally well. But I can shoot my little Glock at least as well as my 1911.

*shrugs* I can't help myself, I dun' never met a handgun I didn't like, or one that didn't like me! Hell, I even used to hate on Sig Sauers, till I figured out they made this thing called the P250 that I'm tryin' to find and buy.
 
Wise_A said:
I'm going to go out on a limb here.

I don't think you can walk into a gunshop and buy a bad gun anymore. I mean, I've heard Hi-Points are terrible...but I've never actually seen one for sale.

And yeah, I might ridicule Bersas and Tauruses, but every time I see somebody shooting one, the damn things work. And that's sort of all that matters on the receiving end.
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That limb is breaking. :)
Every gun shop in the area sells Bersas and Hi-Points, and many sell Bryce/Jennings too! I walked into Dunhams recently to get some shot gun shells, and had to wait in line behind a guy who was there picking up his 9mm Hi-Point off lay-away. When the salesman went to ring it up the customer said - "I need some bullets". Sure, hollow points or full metal jacket? What's the difference? [Salesman explains the difference, and the price]. I'm standing there thinking - "please say give me two of each". The customer thinks for a second and says - "I'll take one box of the power points and pass on the others". Obviously, he was going to take the gun home, load it, and stick it in the nightstand drawer. No intention on practice.

I had a Bersa Thunder CC edition on my "get list" until my last advanced pistol class. Ten shooters on the line and the lady to my left is shooting a Bersa Thunder that her dad gave her. Feed jams, stove pipes, failure to eject, you name the problem and she had it! Even with a switch in ammo.
They ended the night with a challenge called "Last man standing". Starting from 7yards, on signal we drew and fired (1) round at the silhouette, re-holstered, then took one step back and waited for signal again. Missing the silhouette disqualified the shooter. I was disqualified after the third rep. when the ladies round hit MY target, a good 12 inches outside the silhouette...I saw it , but the instructors didn't. My instructor was so disappointed because I had a nice 3" group going in the upper chest area. I just nodded toward her and he knew what I meant.
 
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Wise_A said:
I'm going to go out on a real limb here.

I don't think you can walk into a gunshop and buy a bad gun anymore. I mean, I've heard Hi-Points are terrible...but I've never actually seen one for sale.

And yeah, I might ridicule Bersas and Tauruses, but every time I see somebody shooting one, the damn things work. And that's sort of all that matters on the receiving end.



A rebuttal in three parts:

If you can't shoot a Glock, you can't shoot.

If you're just prefer something different, then that's different.

But hey, I guess the massive aftermarket support for the 1911, Ruger Mk II/III/IV, S&W Victory, Browning Buckmark, various Sig Sauers, and so on, all means that those guns are also unshootable pieces of garbage.

In all seriousness, if you're a legitimately talented shooter, the gun doesn't really matter.
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Depending on the definition of "bad" I can find plenty of guns in the gun shop that I consider inferior options for self defense even if I think they might make fun range toys (e.g. derringers, single action revolvers, etc.)

I'm one of those people who doesn't shoot as well with a Glock. Grip angle and shape just doesn't fit my hands that well. If you give me a Glock 17 with the finger grooves removed I can do OK with that, the Glock 43 is just too thin/rectangular for me to grip easily. Mind you, I have no problem shooting the Shield.

If I trained every day with a Glock I could probably get a lot better with one. But my training resources are limited and I see no reason to start with something that's going to be more difficult for me. Nothing against the brand though -- I owned two Glocks and they were perfectly adequate mechanically.
 
Arik said:
My home town PD has 6400 officers and I know for a fact at least a few don't even want to carry a gun! The department issues G17 but recently they've allowed other Glocks as long as the officers provide their own ammo for training! Guess what's the most popular gun now! G17!

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
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It's been my understanding that PPD issues the G19, not the G17.

Just curious when that changed?
 
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