Hearsedriver
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MY M&P 15 is top shelf as far as Im concerned. 100% reliable and accurate. What else is there?
What "Tier" is the M&P AR-15?
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rojodiablo
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my_mp15-22_s&w
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After U have fired UR rifle a whole bunch and are perty aware of its limitations and hard points, pay most attention to ammo. Here is where U get picky/choosy/if U know what I mean. Absolute accuracy and reliability will probably come with a barrel for "long" cartridge only not "long rifle."
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Lee in Quartzsite
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Same goes for gasoline....I just put the cheap stuff in my car and truck. Went over 200k in my '97 Silverado and the non-Tier 1 gas worked just fine.
Love my M&P 15...and it's even a Piston model. Never a hic-up in over 3 years over ownership. To me it's more than "Tier 1" because it always works.
The 'tier' thing (the 'chart', etc.) rates different AR's against Colts TDP (technical data package) which provides complete specifications for the M4 carbine (this TDP is part of Military Specification MIL-C-70559). A civilian M4 pattern carbine cannot meet the TDP in its entirety as we've no access to current production select fire weapons and 14.5" barrels (with or without a standard threaded muzzle device) require a NFA tax stamp. They may, however, follow all other specifications in the TDP. It is on this majority of the TDP specs that 'the chart' categorizes weapons and by this specification that a weapons 'tier' is determined. Some view this categorization as elitism or snobbery and I suspect this is the case with some folks who frequent AR related forums (wearing their weapons adherence to the TDP as a status symbol). Snobbery/elitism isn't the reason that 'the chart' exists or for weapons to be classified as 'tier 1', 'tier 2', etc. They exist so that those who deem adherence to the TDP an important factor in choosing an AR have relevant data to work with - nothing more. Keep in mind that the M4/M16 platform is the standard issue carbine for our armed forces. For these folks durability and reliability are crucial - truly a matter of life and death. The TDP a set of standards and specifications designed to produce and ensure the most consistently durable and reliable weapon possible for this weapon platform.
Should this matter to you and I? I'd say that depends on one's intended use for their AR(s). If I were a law enforcement officer and I were purchasing an AR to be used as a duty carbine I would definitely find 'the chart' (or, more specifically, its data points) useful in selecting a carbine. In this case a 'tier 1' AR (as determined by its adherence to the TDP) would be a wise choice as my life may well depend on that carbines ability to perform reliably. This is true for those who run their AR's hard (those who attend carbine courses and train in the same manner - thousands of rounds per month) as this is where an AR is more likely to fail. Those AR's built to the TDP's standards are, generally speaking, less likely to fail when being run hard.
Short version - these qualifiers do not exist for bragging rights. They serve a purpose. It's up to the individual AR owner to decide for him or herself whether adherence to the TDP is an important factor or not. A great many AR's are manufactured with deviations from the TDP and function flawlessly for their owners in their intended application. It's not a competition or a popularity contest - it's simply a set of specifications (and a means by which to measure a given manufacturers AR against that specification).
Should this matter to you and I? I'd say that depends on one's intended use for their AR(s). If I were a law enforcement officer and I were purchasing an AR to be used as a duty carbine I would definitely find 'the chart' (or, more specifically, its data points) useful in selecting a carbine. In this case a 'tier 1' AR (as determined by its adherence to the TDP) would be a wise choice as my life may well depend on that carbines ability to perform reliably. This is true for those who run their AR's hard (those who attend carbine courses and train in the same manner - thousands of rounds per month) as this is where an AR is more likely to fail. Those AR's built to the TDP's standards are, generally speaking, less likely to fail when being run hard.
Short version - these qualifiers do not exist for bragging rights. They serve a purpose. It's up to the individual AR owner to decide for him or herself whether adherence to the TDP is an important factor or not. A great many AR's are manufactured with deviations from the TDP and function flawlessly for their owners in their intended application. It's not a competition or a popularity contest - it's simply a set of specifications (and a means by which to measure a given manufacturers AR against that specification).
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Lee in Quartzsite
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Little Creek
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I own both a M&P15, a DDM4v7lw and a Colt M4 with a lw barrel. I consider them all quality firearms.
When was Colt's TDP finalized or updated? Is it not possible that some other manufacturer may build a clone that in fact deviates from the TDP in some way that is superior/better because of current technology? I am thinking of Daniel Defense's MFR or S&W's 5R barrel with melonite treatment, etc. Is a lw barrel a detrement when one does not have full auto capability?
I do not think the Military always has the latest and greatest. I read something written by a retired Army officer that it took 40 years to come up with a reliable magazine for the M16. In my opinion the TDP or Mil Spec should be a starting point, not an ending point in the evolution of the wonderful AR-15 platform.
Arik
Member
It possible that some new technology is better. But to make sure it really is better they would have to issue the new rifles to X amount of soldiers and have them run it hard in all conditions. Maybe sand storms reek havoc on melonite barrels (just saying).
Just cause a bunch of guys get good results shooting prerie dogs with hand loads or the guy screaming "i shot 500 rounds in one year and everything was flawless" doesnt mean anything.
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Lee in Quartzsite
Member
Remember most, if not all, hardware the military buys is awarded to the lowest bidder. The lowest bid may not be the best design. Applies to everything from planes to toilet paper...which was pretty crappy!
Shoot when I was in many of the M16s I went on duty with were A1 Lowers with A2 uppers (in the case of the A3) up until they switched the A2 upper for the A4 upper.
Although the M4 I had was nice, I always remember talking AR's with local cops that had nice eotechs and surefire mine was KISS but at least mine was FA.
Although the M4 I had was nice, I always remember talking AR's with local cops that had nice eotechs and surefire mine was KISS but at least mine was FA.
SW_shooter
Member
I've been spending a larger portion of my time lately researching AR15s because I decided I want one again. Back before Sandy Hook and the "ban" talk I was thinking about one but hadn't quite convinced myself I "needed" one. I kept telling myself that all I wanted it for was to go to the range and plink and that just didn't seem to justify the expense. I mean, the money could be spent in many better or fulfilling ways and on needs rather than wants. So I put it out of mind..........................until recently. I have the itch reaaaaaaaaaal bad.
I saw a listing on this forum's for sale section for a S&W AR15 Sport, I mulled it over, looked at the ad many times, slept on it, asked a couple friends what they thought of the deal, and when I was finally ready to pull the perverbial trigger.......it was gone. While kicking myself I saw another listing pop up for a S&W AR15, again I mulled it over, researched it, PM'd the owner, asked one buddy what he thought, and then it was gone by the time I decided to say, "I'll take it".
I did a Google search on reviews and rankings for AR15s. Here is a link to one I found very interesting: AR Manufacturer Tier/Quality Ranking - AR15.COM.
How does this apply to the thread??? Being a newbie to ARs I don't know much of anything about them from a use or manufacturer standpoint. So I used my trusty computer to try to educate myself since I can't just go out and shoot several different brands or makes like so many of you seem to think we all have available to do. I'm interested in "Tiers" because it provides me a reference point as to people's opinions based on their biases. I saw local for sale ads for several manufacturers and then saw that those guns were ranked very low by many users.
Based on the fact that I will use it for primarily plinking I don't want to spend $2k, but I want something dependable in case TSHTF and there is fighting in the streets. And when I get the inevitable "why do you need it" question from the liberal gun grabbers my answer is "because I want it and it's cool looking", so there! [tongue sticking out and making the fart noise]
P.S. one of my friends said something that made me laugh, he's Asian and has the stereotypical accent so bear that in mind as you read this. "if you have the itch, yous have to scratch it"
I saw a listing on this forum's for sale section for a S&W AR15 Sport, I mulled it over, looked at the ad many times, slept on it, asked a couple friends what they thought of the deal, and when I was finally ready to pull the perverbial trigger.......it was gone. While kicking myself I saw another listing pop up for a S&W AR15, again I mulled it over, researched it, PM'd the owner, asked one buddy what he thought, and then it was gone by the time I decided to say, "I'll take it".
I did a Google search on reviews and rankings for AR15s. Here is a link to one I found very interesting: AR Manufacturer Tier/Quality Ranking - AR15.COM.
How does this apply to the thread??? Being a newbie to ARs I don't know much of anything about them from a use or manufacturer standpoint. So I used my trusty computer to try to educate myself since I can't just go out and shoot several different brands or makes like so many of you seem to think we all have available to do. I'm interested in "Tiers" because it provides me a reference point as to people's opinions based on their biases. I saw local for sale ads for several manufacturers and then saw that those guns were ranked very low by many users.
Based on the fact that I will use it for primarily plinking I don't want to spend $2k, but I want something dependable in case TSHTF and there is fighting in the streets. And when I get the inevitable "why do you need it" question from the liberal gun grabbers my answer is "because I want it and it's cool looking", so there! [tongue sticking out and making the fart noise]
P.S. one of my friends said something that made me laugh, he's Asian and has the stereotypical accent so bear that in mind as you read this. "if you have the itch, yous have to scratch it"
rojodiablo
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Since I ran 9500+ of Wolf/WPA thru mine in a year, and it was flawless.......... does THAT mean anything?
Other than I made better ammo deals than most folk last year??!!!
SW shooter; you will find that basically ALL of the factory built rifles are GTG, out of the box. A few might be a little rough on fit& finish, a few will always have an issue or 2. But a factory rifle comes with a WARRANTY. And they usually stand by their warranty very well.
Stay away from plastic lowers and uppers. If you are tight on money, save some more up and get a decent rifle. No need to play with plastic stuff that might/ might not hold up to extended use.
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SW_shooter
Member
Thanks reddevil. 
Don't tell my misses but I'm leaning towards saving a lot extra so I can get a S&W M&P15-22 and a Colt AR15 LE6920. I had a budget in mind of $800 and then it went to $1100 and now its north of that for both units. I missed a Colt for $995 that has me kicking myself. Hopefully I'll find another.
Don't tell my misses but I'm leaning towards saving a lot extra so I can get a S&W M&P15-22 and a Colt AR15 LE6920. I had a budget in mind of $800 and then it went to $1100 and now its north of that for both units. I missed a Colt for $995 that has me kicking myself. Hopefully I'll find another.
rojodiablo
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Thanks reddevil.
Don't tell my misses but I'm leaning towards saving a lot extra so I can get a S&W M&P15-22 and a Colt AR15 LE6920. I had a budget in mind of $800 and then it went to $1100 and now its north of that for both units. I missed a Colt for $995 that has me kicking myself. Hopefully I'll find another.
A good AR should not have to cost you more than $750-800. Seriously. I have seen rifles come in near that even after this mayhem and nonsense. If your heart is set on the Colt, then $900 is not too bad a price. For a 22, unless I was getting a rifle to train with in place of the AR, I would never look past a Ruger 10/22 or Marlin model 60. Simply put, they are a whole tier above any and every other 22 semi on the market. (Since we are talking tiers here......)
Skeptic 9c
Member
The gun shelves are stocked locally here in FL. It's the ammo shelves that are bare naked. Find a 6920 and it will be around $1K and may be negotiable.
Geoff
Who is to worried about his finances to buy what he wants anytime soon.
Geoff
Who is to worried about his finances to buy what he wants anytime soon.
