WHAT TO DO??

[rct269]

Let's get my qualifications out of the way for openers. I can disassemble pretty much any (S&W) revolver into (again pretty much) every piece, and put it back together again with no problem whatsoever. I figure that makes me an accomplished parts changer---which doesn't even begin to make me a gunsmith. So much for that!

I am attempting to install a Miculek spring kit in an M&P (on my way to making a proper tractor gun). The gun is circa 1920, which is to say long action. (It has yet to be determined if long action/short action makes any difference.) I say I'm attempting to install the kit---it's installed---piece of cake. The gun functions fine---double action. It doesn't function at all single action-----because the rear of the hammer contacts the hammer spring before full cock is reached. It's close, but no cigar!!

What to do? I see my options as grinding a bit from the rear of the hammer, or straightening the spring a little---so as to create the requisite clearance. (While the instructions note straightening the spring (or increasing the bend) will produce small variations in trigger pull, the entire concept of straightening a spring strikes me as oxymoronic----which takes us back to the fact I ain't no gunsmith!

Brownells suggests returning/exchanging the kit---which tells me they have no soul, no spirit of adventure, and/or too many lawyers. I also perhaps have too much faith in Miculek's quality control to suppose these kits come with springs bent in varying amounts.

Your turn----grind the hammer or straighten the spring? And if the latter, just exactly how does one straighten a spring----without having it return to its' "unstraightened" configuration?

Many thanks!!

Ralph Tremaine

It is perhaps worth noting the hammer contacts the hammer spring pretty much dead center of the (Miculek) bend.

 

[armorer951]

I wouldn't modify the hammer itself. You can bend the spring slightly, the preferred method being insertion of a wooden wedge (door stop shape) between the installed spring and the grip frame, and "twisting" the wedge slightly to bend/increase the arch in the spring. You may also be able to remove some material from the hooks on the spring itself....removing just enough to prevent contact when in SA. A new mainspring screw would also help, but installation of a longer screw will have a direct effect on the hammer pull (increase) .....shorter will decrease pull.

 

[rct269]

Thank you, Sir! I should have made myself more clear. When I refer to straightening the spring, I'm referring to straightening the (rather) severe bend introduced into the spring by Miculek. Specif., while the (relaxed/uninstalled) stock spring is essentially straight, Miculek has introduced a severe bend (45 degrees (+/-) forward), with its' apex perhaps 3/8" to 1/2" down from the hooks. As noted in my (now edited) post, the point of contact between hammer and spring is at the apex of this bend. (See Brownells catalog #67, page 230 for an illustration.)

Ralph Tremaine

The net (physical) effect of the "Miculek Bend" is (when installed) to move the upper portion of the spring toward the rear----where it creates an interference fit with the hammer when one attempts to cock the hammer for single action use. (The functional effect of the "Miculek Bend", ostensibly at least, is to reduce the double action trigger pull----that being the whole idea of the kit in the first place. That much I know----maybe. Knowing that (on the one hand) and understanding it (on the other hand) are two entirely different things.) (!!!)

 

[armorer951]

How about using an OEM spring. The kit you are referring to is made for current production guns.

 

[rct269]

Well, thanks to "armorer951", an epiphany of sorts has come to pass. He mentioned lengthening the strain screw. The instructions (in part) prescribe shortening the strain screw, but he got me to thinking----finally.

The objective of the kit is to produce a seven pound double action trigger pull. The instructions, those would be the things you read after all else fails, go like this: Adjust strain screw until trigger pull is seven pounds. Measure the distance the strain screw protrudes from the frame. Tighten the screw. Again measure the distance the strain screw protrudes from the frame. Do the math, and whack the difference off the strain screw.

Now, I had read the instructions. I didn't think about them hardly at all, but I read them. Then I installed the spring----and tightened the strain screw------all the way----intending to later back it off, and get on with all this measuring business. AND that's when I found myself in trouble, and hollering for help.

So, this time I tightened the strain screw enough to hold the spring in place; but nowhere near tight----and attempted to cock the hammer. Guess what??!!! It worked fine! It not only worked fine, but it would appear it's going to keep right on working fine.

It appears that way because I have reduced the DA trigger pull by damn near half----from 20.5 to 11.5. Now those numbers are just that---numbers. They came from a 50 pound fish scale I have to use in setting drive belt tension on various pieces of machinery. And that because my only real trigger pull gauge tops out at 80 ounces----which is to say it wasn't made to measure double action pull.

Bottom Line: This beater, which was carried in the hip pocket of my father-in-law's overalls for forty some odd years---and which had the most atrocious trigger pull (both DA and SA) you can imagine, is now slicker than snot (!!!)---and it isn't even finished. I wonder if it will pop a primer?? (Miculek says to use Federal primers/ammo---also says the kit is recommended for target/competition use---and not recommended for defensive handguns----which suggests going all the way down to seven pounds might not be the hot set-up.)

We shall see what we shall see!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[walrus100upd]

lighter pull

Let's get my qualifications out of the way for openers. I can disassemble pretty much any (S&W) revolver into (again pretty much) every piece, and put it back together again with no problem whatsoever. I figure that makes me an accomplished parts changer---which doesn't even begin to make me a gunsmith. So much for that!

I am attempting to install a Miculek spring kit in an M&P (on my way to making a proper tractor gun). The gun is circa 1920, which is to say long action. (It has yet to be determined if long action/short action makes any difference.) I say I'm attempting to install the kit---it's installed---piece of cake. The gun functions fine---double action. It doesn't function at all single action-----because the rear of the hammer contacts the hammer spring before full cock is reached. It's close, but no cigar!!

What to do? I see my options as grinding a bit from the rear of the hammer, or straightening the spring a little---so as to create the requisite clearance. (While the instructions note straightening the spring (or increasing the bend) will produce small variations in trigger pull, the entire concept of straightening a spring strikes me as oxymoronic----which takes us back to the fact I ain't no gunsmith!

Brownells suggests returning/exchanging the kit---which tells me they have no soul, no spirit of adventure, and/or too many lawyers. I also perhaps have too much faith in Miculek's quality control to suppose these kits come with springs bent in varying amounts.

Your turn----grind the hammer or straighten the spring? And if the latter, just exactly how does one straighten a spring----without having it return to its' "unstraightened" configuration?

Many thanks!!

Ralph Tremaine

It is perhaps worth noting the hammer contacts the hammer spring pretty much dead center of the (Miculek) bend.

Ralph;
I agree with armorer , install the right part for the gun... That part IS made for the newer models and shouldn't be used in yours... Can it work , probably , but leaving the strain screw backed off will eventually come back to haunt you... That screw should be tightened all the way snugly. If it isn't it can loosen and it will cause the gun to misfire...
One of the first things I learned when working on guns , is always start an alteration to the cheapest of the parts involved in the alteration.. Before you start grinding away at a part that is costly and hard to find , perhaps start with a ten cent screw instead..
The old mainspring can be made to provide less tension on the hammer by carefully filing a little metal off of the end of the strain screw.. Again keep in mind that you don't want the hammer fall too lightly .. But before doing anything to the mainspring perform this little test..
Open the cylinder of the revolver , cock the hammer fully ,and place your index finger over the firing pin hole inside the frame , on the bolster face and pull the trigger... You should feel a decent sting .. Do this a couple of times so you get an idea of your "starting point"... Next , back off the strain screw one full turn , and do the test again.. Note the difference in "feel" Then take another turn off the screw , do the test again... Repeat this until you can feel when the hammer strike starts to get wimpy.. You DONT want to set the fall this light..
If , hypothetically , it took four full turns before the hammer fall started to feel weak , don't remove any more than half of that amount of material from the screw.. You can always take a little more metal off , if needed , but you can't put it back on.
So , using a good file , take about four or five passes off of the end of the strain screw, do the test , and see how it feels. Repeat if necessary , but test the fall each time carefully... When the fall feels right stop and test the trigger pull . It should be acceptable..
Guns are designed to perform in a particular fashion. Each and every part is there for a reason and should act in concert with each other for reasons of function but primarily for safety... Just about everyone wants more and better performance from our guns , but you don't want to sacrifice safety..
Sorry for the long post
Ted
P.S. If you need an extra strain screw...let me know.