DeeBee
Member
I feel that .38+P is not enough and .357 is too much. What would you suggest? I dont reload, so any suggestions might help. I was thinking .38+P+ Winchester?
What to use that is in between .38+P and .357 ?
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Handloading gives you plenty of options; factory loads would include the +P Buffalo Bore .38s and the Speer Gold Dot .357 Short Barrel.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
The 135gr Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel .357 Magnum round is rated @990 fps from a 2" barrel. In contrast the 135gr Short Barrel .38 Special +P round is rated @860 fps from a 2" barrel. It sounds like the Speer GD SB .357 Magnum round is exactly what you're looking for.
"They" say the +P+ sold to law enforcement is .357 pressure in a 38 case to confuse the usual critics. I occasionally see it for sale at gun shows. I was issued the stuff and had to shoot it in my M-36 which was no fun (but the M-36 held up to the abuse).
Good suggestions above for the mid range .357 loads. But in the long run it will be easier for you if you just accept the fact that the 38 +P has been taking care of business for 30 years. There are a number of good loads out there now that are generally easy to come by at the stores. Gold Dot, PDX1, etc.
Stu Honea
Member
This. Unless you reload,a mid power .357 load like this is your only choice.I've used a lot of these in my 2 1/2 incher and I love the way it shoots and handles.
This is one of the few loads that I have not "tested" myself but I believe it to be more than adequate in performance.Very controllable in rapid fire,but you can still feel a thump.
Texas Star
US Veteran
For the record, .38 Plus P seems to run about 65% effective in one-shot stops, per Marshall and Sanow and other researchers studying actual shootings.
Some doubt M&S, but others confirm similar results. However, their books did not include recent Gold Dot ammo, and a Speer spokesman told me that both NYCPD and Los Angeles police have found their Gold Dot Short bbl. load to be quite effective.
.45 ACP hardball has similar results. But it becomes vastly more effective with JHP ammo. .357 125 grain JHP in full power loads rates about 96%, the highest of any handgun load in general use. But it's loud and abusive to guns in frequent practice.
I think that Remington 125 grain medium load that Stu mentioned has a lot of merit, if you can find it. That's especially true if you have a smaller .357.
Some doubt M&S, but others confirm similar results. However, their books did not include recent Gold Dot ammo, and a Speer spokesman told me that both NYCPD and Los Angeles police have found their Gold Dot Short bbl. load to be quite effective.
.45 ACP hardball has similar results. But it becomes vastly more effective with JHP ammo. .357 125 grain JHP in full power loads rates about 96%, the highest of any handgun load in general use. But it's loud and abusive to guns in frequent practice.
I think that Remington 125 grain medium load that Stu mentioned has a lot of merit, if you can find it. That's especially true if you have a smaller .357.
OP
DeeBee
Member
Is there a difference in felt recoil between the Gold Dot Short barrel .357, and the Golden Sabre .357? (for those of you that have shot both)?
OP
DeeBee
Member
Lineman73
Member
What gun?
What firearm are you looking to shoot this "medium" load in? If it is a lightweight short barrel model, I'd suggest getting a standard weight all steel model and then shoot the full magnum defensive ammo. If you must go with the lightweight firearm, use whatever load you and your gun shoot the best. A medium recoiling load that you can hit with beats the hell out of a heavy magnum load that misses!!
Remember rule #2 for zombies...DOUBLE TAP!!
What firearm are you looking to shoot this "medium" load in? If it is a lightweight short barrel model, I'd suggest getting a standard weight all steel model and then shoot the full magnum defensive ammo. If you must go with the lightweight firearm, use whatever load you and your gun shoot the best. A medium recoiling load that you can hit with beats the hell out of a heavy magnum load that misses!!
Remember rule #2 for zombies...DOUBLE TAP!!
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CCantu357
Member
I always have good shooting with the 110 grain loads from WWB or Rem. Low recoil and easy on the gun. I believe the Border Patrol used them for years.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I have shot all three of the loads we are talking about. There isn't much a difference between the 2 Speer loads but the Remington load, well...
Muzzle energy for:
Speer 135gr .38 Special +P = 221 ft/lbs
Speer 135gr .357 Magnum = 293 ft/lbs
Golder Saber 125gr .357 Magnum = 413 ft/lbs
OP
DeeBee
Member
The speer stats you have are from a 2" barrel. The Remington stats are from a 4" barrel. I wish I knew the stats on the Remington from a 2" ?
Here is a somewhat helpful graph : http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/357mag.html
It almost seems like the Federal Hydrashock 130 gr. may even be better @ about 220 energy from a 2" barrel? Has anyone shot that?
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RandomMan
Member
Buffalo Bore likely has an ammunition you seek.
They have a heavy 158-grain LHP +P that scorches at nearly 1162 FPS from a 4" barrel, 1040 from a 2". Compared to the Remington 158-grain LHP +P, that averages 850 from a 2" barrel, and 1050 from a 4".
They also have a short barrel .357 that uses Speer's brilliant gold dot, 125-grain in weight, their "Tactical Short Barrel Low Recoil" load as they call it, which does 1102 from a J-Frame, and 1445 from a 4".
The two above are some of my favorite loads, with the heavy +P in .38 special only all steel guns (like an M64), and the 125-grain Tac Short Barrel in my 4" GP100. I also love their 158-grain standard pressure round, which essentially duplicates the Remington +P load, without actually have +P pressure, great for my Colt and older Smith snubs.
-Rob
They have a heavy 158-grain LHP +P that scorches at nearly 1162 FPS from a 4" barrel, 1040 from a 2". Compared to the Remington 158-grain LHP +P, that averages 850 from a 2" barrel, and 1050 from a 4".
They also have a short barrel .357 that uses Speer's brilliant gold dot, 125-grain in weight, their "Tactical Short Barrel Low Recoil" load as they call it, which does 1102 from a J-Frame, and 1445 from a 4".
The two above are some of my favorite loads, with the heavy +P in .38 special only all steel guns (like an M64), and the 125-grain Tac Short Barrel in my 4" GP100. I also love their 158-grain standard pressure round, which essentially duplicates the Remington +P load, without actually have +P pressure, great for my Colt and older Smith snubs.
-Rob
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
When I read your post I remembered sending some of that 135gr Speer .357 Magnum over the chrono in my 4" M686. I checked my records and actually found the data. I got an average velocity of 1120 fps from a 4" barrel. That translates into 375 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle.
From a 4" barrel:
Speer 135gr .357 Magnum = 375 ft/lbs
Golder Saber 125gr .357 Magnum = 413 ft/lbs
As you see the Speer ammo is still lighter than the Remington offering. It's not as much a spread as from the 2" barrel but almost 40 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle is nothing to sneeze at and will translate into more felt recoil. Of course felt recoil is subjective and what feels heavy to me might not feel the same to you.
OP
DeeBee
Member
I am going to sample a bunch of different ammo, and report back. I will shoot it through my 649.
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Buffalo Bore HEAVY 38 Special +P 158 grain LSWCHP-GC. GREAT LOAD!!!!
BBQLS1
Member
E = .5mv^2
Velocity 158 grain
100 3.5
200 14.0
300 31.6
400 56.1
500 87.7
600 126.3
700 171.9
800 224.6
900 284.2
1000 350.9
1100 424.6
1200 505.3
1300 593.0
1400 687.7
One can Google "muzzle energy" and find a myriad of web pages on how to calculate, and a few with 'fill-ins' that will calculate for you.
A handy formula I use with my simple calculator is
Mass x Velocity x Velocity / 450240 = muzzle energy (ft-lb)
mv^2 / 450240 = ft-lb
Take BBQLS1's example - key in
158 x 1100 x 1100 / 450240 = 424.6
You will see some folks use 450400 as the gravity constant instead. Depends upon where you are on the earth, gravity-wise, but that is splitting hairs.
A handy formula I use with my simple calculator is
Mass x Velocity x Velocity / 450240 = muzzle energy (ft-lb)
mv^2 / 450240 = ft-lb
Take BBQLS1's example - key in
158 x 1100 x 1100 / 450240 = 424.6
You will see some folks use 450400 as the gravity constant instead. Depends upon where you are on the earth, gravity-wise, but that is splitting hairs.
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