What would you rate the finish on this HD at?

[arfmel]

Looks like a 75% gun to me, too. If the gun is mechanically sound I'd be on it like a duck on a june bug at 500 bucks.

 

[2152hq]

If the other side looks like this side, and I had to describe it to sell, I say it was an overall 65% gun with alot of handling use, wear & scratches. If the bore & chambers are excellent, the gun mechanically sound, it would be gone in a flash in the classifieds at $500 even if the grips didn't number to the gun.

 

[rburg]

Its a fun game to play. I used to pull the stunt at gunshows. Just hand a nice old gun out and have the "experts" rate it. Problem was, the people I felt were closest to being the experts wouldn't play!

The simple fact is, that gun is a nice old shooter. The percentile rating system just doesn't work on well worn guns. And the value charts people have made and published aren't worth a darn, either.

If I saw it for sale at $500, I'd buy it. If anyone else saw it for that price and didn't, they'd probably be passing over a good value. I could easily imagine that one being snapped up and resold at $750. Don't be fooled, its just not a collectors piece now. It never will be. But it would be a very nice addition to any collection that lacks a HD.

As for how I'd rate it...I'd agree with Mike its probably a 50% gun, but worth 2 to 2 1/2 times his estimate.

And I'd guess George Wimer, if he had it up for sale, would be rating it in the low 90% range, probably about 91.827%

 

[handejector]

This is why the percentage system is so useless- no one REALLY comprehends what 1%, or 20% of a gun's total surface area REALLY is.
I see people count ten PINPOINT freckles on an otherwise perfect gun, and pronounce it 90%!!!!

LOOK at the pic-
Now, focus on the cyl ONLY, and tell me- is 10% of the finish gone? I think about that.
Now, the barrel ONLY- same question- 10%?? Perhaps a bit more is gone, BUT, remember that the top and bottom DON'T have that much wear.
Last, the frame ONLY- Probably NOT 10%- cause ALL surface counts- like inside the trigger guard, grip straps, sight groove, front surface, etc.
The truth is, a 90% gun can be ugly as Hell to many people. A 50-60% gun is a REAL doggie. Below a true 96-97%, many collectors cannot even consider a gun for purchase, and I'm talking about a Helluva nice gun!
This gun is easily 85%, and probably 90%, but I don't expect much agreement.
I wish some computer whiz would superimpose a grid over a gun pic, and show everyone how much 1% of a gun's surface truly is.

 

[mikepriwer]

Lee

What about the discoloration on the sideplate ? Is that blue loss, to you ?
If so, then the frame has a lot of blue loss. If its not blue loss, but
if its really there, then what do you say about it ?

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[ohiobuckeye]

Sorta like the wife asking "does this dress make me look fat?"....

....Opinions vary, usually depending on whether the opinion is coming from the buyer, or the seller. Now you know why classified buyers always ask for pictures.

 

[handejector]

Originally posted by mikepriwer:
Lee

What about the discoloration on the sideplate ? Is that blue loss, to you ?
If so, then the frame has a lot of blue loss. If its not blue loss, but
if its really there, then what do you say about it ?

Later, Mike Priwer

Mike,
That IS reflection- it is skin tone, and if you blow the pic up, you can see the individual fingers of the hand holding the camera.
Internet "photo interpretation" is becoming a necessary art, akin to the photo recon skills of military analysts.

 

[j38]

+1 Lee (Unfortunately, most of the photos I take exhibit the same flesh tone).

While I'm a real amateur at rating guns, I always reduce from 100% for bluing loss - and more for "fading" and scratches. I'd put that HD at about 75%. Regards, Jerry

 

[feralmerril]

I been pretty inactive for a long time, but I turned over a lot of guns years ago. From what I see I would rate it 75/80 %. But the way I used to do business was almost all face to face. I never sold a gun except face to face and out of a few hundred I only bought 3 over the net or paper. I do need to learn how to rate better, but I would probley try to rate all guns about at least 5% lower if I sell some, as I dont like to argue later. So to me it has been irelative as I figure only they are what they are, but I need to know what the average thinking is as I probley will be selling quite a few when I get a little older.

 

[cxm]

About 75% seems right to me...

OTOH, the trigger and hammer have no case color at all... so mayb3 the 60-65% mike put on it is more accurate than my estimate...

FWIW

Chuck

 

[NKJ nut]

If looks like an 85% gun to me. I just don't see anything there that would lead me to believe that it is missing half its finish. Which would have to be the case for it to be a 50% gun.

This thread shows that the percentage system is a long way from perfect. It seems very subject to individual interpretation.

 

[rburg]

Originally posted by handejector:
This gun is easily 85%, and probably 90%, but I don't expect much agreement.

Thats why your guns are all so over priced!!

Lee, you're blind!

Well, that or you have a west coast internet cousin!

Darn, I need to start upgrading my estimates of condition!

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Originally posted by handejector:

This gun is easily 85%, and probably 90%, but I don't expect much agreement.
I wish some computer whiz would superimpose a grid over a gun pic, and show everyone how much 1% of a gun's surface truly is.

Lee;

+1

Sometime last year in this section of the Forum, we had a discussion about the finish percentage rating system. Jim Supica was kind enough to post a grid such as you are describing. We were using two images of one of my Pre 27's as the basis for the subject. Regradless of the system being "good or bad" that is the basis for the percentile finish rating method. If Jim is around (maybe still at the Shotshow?) he might be kind enough to post it again. The system or method does not address overall condition and is flawed to that end. That is another matter entirely and I believe it's the principle disagreement of this discussions broad interpretation. It's by no means perfect and should not stand alone to grade overall condition, but it is useful if properly understood to grade remaining finish.

Finish percentage and overall condition are two seperate factors when grading any arm. I thought I suggested that caveat in my original reply to this post. Apparently, I didn't articulate that concept to the satisfaction of some of the other participants. I still am of the opinion that the revolver in question is a 90% specimen, with the caveats I stated earlier.

 

[N_itis]

This has been touched on but an exact condition rating is not all that critical with anything less than a collector grade gun which might command a substantial premium.

In the current market, any decent prewar Heavy Duty with original stocks is worth $500.00. Heck, the average pinned and recessed M19 goes for $500.00 nowadays. And, although we do not like to talk about it, there is point where some of these guns have good value in their potential "parts use." Not necessarily being completely cannibalized, rather being parted out...$150.00+ for the stocks, $400.00+ for the gun just to send it to a custom pistolsmith who will turn out a $2,000.00 "classic" .45 Colt.

$300.00 for a shootable original configuration N frame, especially a prewar N frame, is a deal no matter how you slice it. No knowledgable seller would even let a Brazilian go for that nowadays.

 

[Local Hand]

I agree with Lee and Lefty that percentage of finish is unacceptably subjective as a grading scale, and this thread seems to prove it. Here we have some of our most respected members whose opinions vary by as much as 40%. I have given up stating percentages of finish and use the old NRA scale. The same reason that the celsius scale is preferred by some over fahrenheit, the F scale offers more precision than some of us need or are capable of using to everyones satisfaction.


Doug

 

[g17]

80%

 

[JimSupica]

Originally posted by oldflatfoot:
If Jim is around

Lefty, the grid appears on page 55 of SCSW3, along w/ a discussion of percentage rating.

My observation that some sophisticated collectors, especially those who focus strongly on condition, use their own shorthand when referring to condition percentage that really has little to do w/ the actual coverage of metal by factory finish.

My personal preference is to use percentage to refer to actual coverage, with additional comments to explain the overall condition of the gun and its collector appeal (or lack thereof). One of those heavily scratched & dinged "stored in a barrel" Brit military .455 HE's could actually have 98-99% coverage, but might be considered a dog by a purist who believes that the turn line on the cylinder acquired during fitting & testing at the factory results in a 99% gun before it's even been sold commercially.

I rant on in a similar manner on pages 54-55 of scsw3, no need for me to repeat it here, altho I do think these discussions are always interesting. - Jim

 

[Onomea]

Thanks, Jim, for the pic and comments.

Ya know, if the finish from one of those squares was totally gone, I don't think anyone would rate the gun at 99%...

I think this is analagous to defining pornography: In 1964, Justice Potter Stewart tried to explain "hard-core" pornography, or what is obscene, by saying, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced . . . ut I know it when I see it . . .

http://library.findlaw.com/2003/May/15/132747.html

And, like pornography, percent ratings of gun condition, as this thread clearly shows, are all in the eye of the beholder!

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Originally posted by JimSupica:

Originally posted by oldflatfoot:
If Jim is around

Lefty, the grid appears on page 55 of SCSW3, along w/ a discussion of percentage rating.

My observation that some sophisticated collectors, especially those who focus strongly on condition, use their own shorthand when referring to condition percentage that really has little to do w/ the actual coverage of metal by factory finish.

My personal preference is to use percentage to refer to actual coverage, with additional comments to explain the overall condition of the gun and its collector appeal (or lack thereof).- Jim

Jim;
Thanks for posting the graph. I agree with your stated preference.

Others;

To recap this subject, it was titled "What would you rate the finish on this HD at?" Apparently, some misinterpret that as a question concerning overall condition grading. I pause to remark again, that they are two seperate questions and that the latter, was never posed by the author of this post.

Edited to add bold face emphasis.

 

[fungunnin]

WOW guys this has been a very interesting thread. Thanks to all for sharing your opinions. I will make sure and follow this up with pictures I take after I recieve the gun.