What year was the 358311 bullet introduced?

[BMur]

I have original Ideal catalogs from the years 1900/1902/1906/1910.
The bullet in photo 1 is designated The 38 special M (Military) in my 1910 Ideal catalog with design 358311.

The bullet in photo 2 is also designated The 38 Special M (Military) in both my 1902 and 1906 catalogs. 358250 This is the first smokeless bullet for the M&P 38 Special Hand Ejector model. The earliest bullet was black powder.

So what year did the 358311 first come out? Has to be between 1907-1910.

Anybody know for sure?

Murph

 

[BMur]

Black powder bullet

Here is a photo of the earliest 38 M (Military) black powder bullet design 358210.
Seen from 1899 until 1902 when replaced by the 358250 smokeless design and designated the 38 Special in the Ideal catalog.

It’s the 358311 design that I’d just like to date for my records.

Murph

 

[glenwolde]

I was wondering if it was before 1900 or not when I read the title. 1907-1910 seems right. That's a long time ago. How about the first SWC?

 

[BMur]

Very interesting subject

Actually,

I’ve done some in depth research on the Semi-Wadd and Wadcutter subject.
In the Himmelwright book circa 1904 all the early target load listings are Round nose bullets.

It wasn’t until 1905 that these “SHARP SHOULDER” or “SQUARE SHOULDER” bullets showed up. That’s what they called them. See photo with S’ designator.

I’ve read that the design goes back to 1903 but I’ve found nothing to support any listings.

What’s really interesting about this subject is what they actually were introduced as? What their initial purpose was?

I have a very early box of Smokeless Police 38 Special rounds and they are Wadcutters that are listed on the box as Sharp Shoulder MAN STOPPERS!

So it is also possible that the early WC & SWC design was for police work that just happened to work well at the range for target shooters.

Elmer Kieth also used SWC 44 Mags for big game hunting. In his book he swore by them so there is some history to the stopping power of the original SHARP SHOULDER bullet design that just happens to cut a perfect hole in paper.

Murph

 

[alwslate]

From what I have read about the early Black Powder development of the .38 spl ctg which was to be the new military round the 158 gr RN at 850 fps from a 6" barrel was chosen. The reason given was that accuracy was as good at 50 yds as the 148 gr Wadcutter target load. It seems that the sharp shoulder for improved "stopping power" came later from those outside the government.

 

[glenwolde]

Actually,

I’ve done some in depth research on the Semi-Wadd and Wadcutter subject.
In the Himmelwright book circa 1904 all the early target load listings are Round nose bullets.

It wasn’t until 1905 that these “SHARP SHOULDER” or “SQUARE SHOULDER” bullets showed up. That’s what they called them. See photo with S’ designator.

I’ve read that the design goes back to 1903 but I’ve found nothing to support any listings.

What’s really interesting about this subject is what they actually were introduced as? What their initial purpose was?

I have a very early box of Smokeless Police 38 Special rounds and they are Wadcutters that are listed on the box as Sharp Shoulder MAN STOPPERS!

So it is also possible that the early WC & SWC design was for police work that just happened to work well at the range for target shooters.

Elmer Kieth also used SWC 44 Mags for big game hunting. In his book he swore by them so there is some history to the stopping power of the original SHARP SHOULDER bullet design that just happens to cut a perfect hole in paper.

Murph

If you gave it a single, wide square lube groove that first one is the spitting image of a 358477 right down to the weight. The 358477 and its clones are still a very popular bullet. I shoot thousands of them a year.

I always thought of MANSTOPPERS as wadcutters that have a fair amount of the bullet exposed when seated. That would give more powder capacity whereas the target wadcutters were seated deep because powder capacity wasn't important.

I seem to associate MANSTOPPERS with the large bore British revolver cartridges in my memory. Sometimes with huge hollow points. Very interesting stuff. I love the history.

 

[BMur]

Man stoppers

I found a couple boxes on the internet but neither of them are like my box. Mine is buried but I remember it said SHARP SHOULDER Mid-Range MAN STOPPER. Also said smokeless powder and on the side of the box it went further into the stopping power of the round. No mention of Target use.

The Remington box is definitely post 1911 but the Winchester box is earlier and the bullet used for both dates to 1905. It’s the same basic round used in my box also. I don’t remember the manufacturer but the box is very early. Definitely pre-1910.
With no mention of Target use on any box.

Murph

 

[glenwolde]

I found a couple boxes on the internet but neither of them are like my box. Mine is buried but I remember it said SHARP SHOULDER Mid-Range MAN STOPPER. Also said smokeless powder and on the side of the box it went further into the stopping power of the round. No mention of Target use.

The Remington box is definitely post 1911 but the Winchester box is earlier and the bullet used for both dates to 1905. It’s the same basic round used in my box also. I don’t remember the manufacturer but the box is very early. Definitely pre-1910.
With no mention of Target use on any box.

Murph

Those kind of look similar to a 358432.

 

[BMur]

Correction

My mistake.
The Winchester Red label box I posted is actually dated 5/14. So May of 1914. I’m still sure they were introduced in and around the time that bullet design was introduced about 1905 and were designed for M&P work.

Murph

 

[mtgianni]

I believe it was a Sam Barlow design who sold his company to Lyman around 1900 or so.

 

[JimFr]

My mistake.
The Winchester Red label box I posted is actually dated 5/14. So May of 1914. I’m still sure they were introduced in and around the time that bullet design was introduced about 1905 and were designed for M&P work.

Murph

Don’t read too much into that date of 5/14 . . . .
That date only represents the date the LABEL was PRINTED . . .NOT the date the “box contents” was manufactured!

 

[TripleLock]

I believe it was a Sam Barlow design who sold his company to Lyman around 1900 or so.

The Ideal Manufacturing Co. was founded in 1884 by John H. Barlow. In 1910, John Barlow retired and sold Ideal to the Marlin Firearms Co. In 1916, Marlin sold Ideal to Phineas Talcott who, in 1926, sold to Lyman.

Jim

 

[TripleLock]

To answer the original question regarding Ideal No.358311, it made its debut in Ideal Handbook No.18 (1907). No.358250 first appeared in Handbook No.16 (1904) and was also in Handbook No.17 (1906), then disappeared from the handbooks until Handbook No.31 (1934) where it remained through Handbook No.43 (1964). No.358210 first appeared in Handbook No.13 (1900) and was last seen in Handbook No.16 (1904).

Note that as the Handbooks were rarely updated yearly - there often being a two to three year gap (especially the early ones, prior to Lyman's ownership), what appears in any particular Handbook could have been initially produced any time between its Handbook intro and the publication of the previous Handbook.

Jim

 

[TripleLock]

Don’t read too much into that date of 5/14 . . . .
That date only represents the date the LABEL was PRINTED . . .NOT the date the “box contents” was manufactured!

Read even less into that date. The date is when the label design was approved, not necessarily when it was printed. Many label designs carried on for a number of years without change, so still carried the original date.

Jim

 

[TripleLock]

Actually,

I’ve done some in depth research on the Semi-Wadd and Wadcutter subject.
In the Himmelwright book circa 1904 all the early target load listings are Round nose bullets.

It wasn’t until 1905 that these “SHARP SHOULDER” or “SQUARE SHOULDER” bullets showed up. That’s what they called them. See photo with S’ designator.

I’ve read that the design goes back to 1903 but I’ve found nothing to support any listings.

What’s really interesting about this subject is what they actually were introduced as? What their initial purpose was?

I have a very early box of Smokeless Police 38 Special rounds and they are Wadcutters that are listed on the box as Sharp Shoulder MAN STOPPERS!

So it is also possible that the early WC & SWC design was for police work that just happened to work well at the range for target shooters.

Elmer Kieth also used SWC 44 Mags for big game hunting. In his book he swore by them so there is some history to the stopping power of the original SHARP SHOULDER bullet design that just happens to cut a perfect hole in paper.

Murph

Ideal No.429220 (Himmelwright's original "wad cutter", for the .44 Russian) was introduced in Ideal Handbook No.13 (1900). The same design, adapted for the .38 S&W Military (aka .38 Special), was No.360302 and showed up in Ideal Handbook No.18 (1907). No.360270, the "Man Stopper", debuted in Ideal Handbook No.17 (1906), but disappeared from the Handbooks until No.28 (1927) only to disappear again after No.31 (1934 & 1935).

According to the Ideal Handbook descriptions, the Himmelwright "wad cutter" bullets were "designed especially to cut a clean full-sized hole in the target. This it does to perfection." This description was equally applied to No.360271, a "semi-wadcutter" (and the first to be so designated) designed by B. F. Wilder and first appearing in Handbook No.18 (1907).

Ideal Handbook No.17 (1906) has this to say about the No.360270 "Man-Killer":
360270. For .38 Colt's New Army, New Navy, Marine Corps and Officers' Model, also S. & W. Military Revolvers. Much has been said about the .38 caliber revolver not having sufficient killing power for military use. Our new "Man-Stopper" bullet in the above revolvers with a charge of 2-1/2 to 3 grains' weight of Laflin & Rand "Bulls-Eye" powder will be found accurate and a killer.

1911 seems to have been the "bumper crop" year for the wadcutter and semi-wadcutter, with the following making their initial appearance in Ideal Handbook No.22:
C. E. Heath's No.429336 250gr. SWC;
C. C. Crossman's No.360344 150gr. SWC;
J. B. Crabtree's No.360345 115gr. SWC;
Sidney E. Sears' No.429348 173gr. WC; and
M. L. Homan's No.429352 245gr. WC

A 20-year gap ensues, during which there are only a very few new WC or SWC designs introduced to the shooting public until Elmer Keith's No.429421, No.429422, No.454423, No.454424, and No.358429, all of which were initially shown in Ideal Handbook No.30 (1931).

Jim