When .357 Sig is so much better why carry 9mm?

[jtcarm]

Interesting questions. Interesting observations.

May I suggest that you try shooting 9X19 under simulated combat conditions (low light, no hearing protection, no eye protection, maybe inside a closed room or automobile, just like it will be when you need to defend yourself in the real world), then try the same exercises using .357 Sig. Let us know how that works out for you, okay? You like recoil, you like muzzle blast, you like mega-fountains of muzzle flash, you should really enjoy the experience.

Might even save a buck or two on ammo.

Agree, BUT: I see a LOT of forum members carry .357 snub revolvers, even the Sc lightweights, stoked with full-house magnums.

It's hard to picture the flash/bang/recoil effect being any worse.

 

[Dougaz]

I think we'd all be wise to wait and see what Clint Eastwood has to say about all this ......... "Being that this is a .44, the most powerful handgun in the world, that can blow your head clean off, ya gotta ask your a question" ............

What would Harry do?

 

[swsig]

Following this thread..... made me wonder why we didn't see more agencies adopt the Sig 227 10rds of .45 vs 10 rds of .357 sig in the 229???????


Wike only lists two agencies the Pa and Indiana State police

The SIG P229 .357SIG/.40 S&W comes with 12-round magazines (at least in free states). I assume police agencies would be exempt from magazine restrictions, so maybe the choice was based on the P229's increased capacity.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Whatever floats your boat.

A lot of us think the 357 Siq is over hyped. And for us the 9 is just fine.

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
The main reasons for the 9mm in LE is #1 cost, [ammo and gun]
and the ease of shooting [ ease to qualify].
The test are just an excuse to change .[ 9mm is "just as good"]
The 357sig is based on the 357 mag revolver round and we know
it's performance on the street.....
I have a few , yes they kick ,they shoot flat and accurate [like a 357 mag] and hit hard.
[I just converted a 40 shield to 357 sig Oh Ya......]

 

[LCC]

Ballistics are akin to religion, whole lotta different faiths, each worshipped by it's believers.
Whatever your faith is, however, don't imagine someone killed in a gunfight by a .357 Sig is any deader than someone killed by a 9mm. First rule in a gunfight. Have one.

 

[marathonrunner]

Most police officers are carrying 9mm Luger these days, but I strongly suspect that that has more to do with the fact that 9mm ammo is significantly cheaper yet still adequate, not because more powerful cartridges offer no tangible advantages whatsoever.

Furthermore, I can't help but wonder how the officers themselves feel about the switch, because obviously they don't have any say in what they're issued. I've heard that a lot of officers were unhappy when they had to trade in their .40s for 9mms, often commenting on how they felt more confident carrying a .40 and how they resented that while guys who didn't have to put their own lives in danger had the most influence over what they were issued. I wouldn't be surprised if the Texas DPS Troopers feel the same.

Most cops are not gun enthusiests and they dont' go to the range unless you pay them. I think many would not like the recoil of a .357 sig so that is another reason cops probably like 9mm better. I know my friend is a cop and he will not go to the range with me because guns dont have that 'oh boy this is so cool" he is nuts about riding bicycles and it's all he talks about. I get it because I grew up in the car industry so cars were never a big deal to me. Give me anything that has four wheels and I am fine with it

 

[Echo40]

It depends on the individual. Some folks find a bit of recoil reassuring, indicative of the "stopping power" (speaking in lay terms) of the firearm.
Granted that in reality recoil has very little to do with how effective a firearm is, especially when certain designs transfer a lot more recoil into the shooters hand than others, but folks who are inexperienced with firearms don't know any better. So even police who aren't firearms enthusiasts may feel more comfortable carrying the .357 SIG due to their perception of the recoil, muzzle flash, concussive force, and report in relation to the power of the cartridge and therefore its ability to stop a threat.

 

[LostintheOzone]

I'll go with the cheapest 38 cal/9 mm I can reload. That would be 9 mm. That would also be the cheapest 38 cal/9 mm I could buy if I didn't reload. I can reload +P for my 9 mm. No big secrets there and you can also buy it.

I would buy all of the 9 mm or 357 Sig ammo you can afford tomorrow. Actually, you should have already bought it.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[seldon14]

I guess I pretty much agree with Dr.Gary Roberts(DocGKR) when he wrote...

"Compared to a 9mm, the .357 Sig has a decreased magazine capacity, more recoil, as well as greater muzzle blast and flash, yet at best it offers no gain in bullet penetration and expansion characteristics. What is the point of this cartridge?"

Exactly this.

When it comes to .357 SIG, it seems self-explanatory that it would be more effective than 9mm Luger because it's a bullet of equal size traveling at substantially higher velocity. If folks want to argue that fact, then I would like them to explain why 9mm Luger is more effective than .380 ACP, and assuming their answer is because it's launching a heavier, higher velocity bullet, then I would like to see then explain how it is that the same factors which make 9mm Luger more effective than .380 ACP somehow make absolutely no difference for .357 SIG.

The problem with 380 is its right on the border of providing adequate penetration in defensive loadings.

Imagine you have to hit a 1in off button that is 16in out of your reach. You have 3 tools in front of you with which to accomplish this task. They are metal pipes, with some heft on the end, and a handle on the other.

One increases your reach by 14in

One increases your reach by 17in

One increases your reach by 24in

The 14 in pipe isn't very suitable, it won't reach, maybe you could stretch enough to make it work, but maybe not.

The 17in pipe is about perfect, it has enough length to to reach the button, but isn't unnecessarily long or heavy.

The 24in pipe will also reach the button, but when holding it by the handle it's more difficult control due to the unnecessary weight and length, so odds are it will be more difficult and take you longer.

 

[Univibe]

Bottom Line:

A: .357 Sig and .40 S&W should never have been born; they are solutions looking for a non-existent problem. Now here's the heresy: The .45 ACP should also never have been born. It doesn't do anything to a person that a 9mm won't do just the same. They talk about the Moros, but never tell you the sequel, which is, the .45 didn't work any better than .38, and some Moros weren't even stopped by the .30-40 Krag rifle round.

B: 9mm Parabellum is all you need for anti-personnel work. The rest of the world somehow gets by without noticing any lack of lethality.

C: Big pistol cartridges are quintessentially American. They are useful for hunting, bear defense, and certain types of competition, but no more. Dirty Harry would have been better served with a Model 10 in .38 spl than the Magnum.

D: Shot placement and penetration are 100%. There is no evidence that can be gleaned from people who have been shot, be they living or dead, that hollow points, trick bullets, faster bullets, lighter bullets, heavier bullets, have any discernible differential effects.

E. They survive who put the most bullets in vital areas of the bad guy. The corollary is that more shots available is good, and less recoil means faster shots, which is even better. The conclusion from this is that the best cartridge is one that gives adequate penetration with the least recoil.

F: Building from E, in revolvers that is the .38 spl. In semi autos it's the 9mm, with the added benefit that in the semi, you also get the benefit of more rounds available.

G: In .357 Sig, you get a 9mm hopped up about another 200 fps or so from 9mm Parabellum. Since both cartridges will drive a bullet of ordinary weight (115 to 147 grains) to a speed that will penetrate adequately, you get no gain, but give up more recoil (slower shooting) and magazine capacity (fewer shots).

H: Generalizing from F and G, if you're carrying more than a .38 spl or a 9mm for self-protection, and don't have some rare highly specialized reason to do so (example: doubling as bear defense), you are overpowered and may pay the price.

 

[sandog]

Univibe, I agree with you on all points above except your belief that hollow points offer no advantage over FMJ.
Yes, placement is king, with adequate penetration also right up there, but in a stressful gunfight where you have to get the opponent down before he gets you, your shot might be off a bit. It's not going to be like you are at the target range and have lots of time to place your shot.

I'd rather have something like a 124 grain HST that expands to .66 caliber and penetrates 18 inches, than a 124 FMJ that only stays .35 caliber and penetrates 22 inches.

That perfect .66 caliber mushroom will cause much more damage, and maybe cut that artery that the FMJ slipped by.
The 9mm would have a much better reputation these days if there weren't so many ineffectual hits caused by FMJ, or by older design JHPs that didn't expand.

If we'd have had bullets like the HST, Gold Dot and Ranger-T all along in the 9mm, it would have a much better reputation as a fight stopper.
You would be better off if you insist on carrying FMJ to have a .45 ACP, I sure wouldn't carry FMJ in my MP9 when there are excellent loads like the HST.
Carry FMJ in your 9mm if you desire, but you aren't going to convince the rest of us that it's a good choice.

 

[Univibe]

Ah, if it were a perfect world, where handgun bullets did what they were designed to do.

Those perfect .66 caliber mushrooms? Shoot into ballistic gel, you'll get them. Lead and copper flowers? Water barrels do that.

But death-bullets look mostly like they were beat up. Smeared noses, separated jackets. Some don't expand at all. Many are perforation shots and you never recover them. Few bullets shot into people make mushrooms or flowers. That's the real world, unfortunately.

 

[sandog]

At least with JHP, they will be some deformation/expansion or a chance of it.
9mm FMJ will always be .355 diameter, nothing more. And a very good chance of exiting your target and hitting something you didn't want to hit.

If FMJ had any advantage, there wouldn't be close to 3/4 of a million LEO's in this country carrying JHP to work everyday.
Do you know of any departments or agencies that mandate that only FMJ be carried ?

 

[Sheepdogged]

Bottom Line:

A: .357 Sig and .40 S&W should never have been born; they are solutions looking for a non-existent problem. Now here's the heresy: The .45 ACP should also never have been born. It doesn't do anything to a person that a 9mm won't do just the same. They talk about the Moros, but never tell you the sequel, which is, the .45 didn't work any better than .38, and some Moros weren't even stopped by the .30-40 Krag rifle round.

B: 9mm Parabellum is all you need for anti-personnel work. The rest of the world somehow gets by without noticing any lack of lethality.

C: Big pistol cartridges are quintessentially American. They are useful for hunting, bear defense, and certain types of competition, but no more. Dirty Harry would have been better served with a Model 10 in .38 spl than the Magnum.

D: Shot placement and penetration are 100%. There is no evidence that can be gleaned from people who have been shot, be they living or dead, that hollow points, trick bullets, faster bullets, lighter bullets, heavier bullets, have any discernible differential effects.

E. They survive who put the most bullets in vital areas of the bad guy. The corollary is that more shots available is good, and less recoil means faster shots, which is even better. The conclusion from this is that the best cartridge is one that gives adequate penetration with the least recoil.

F: Building from E, in revolvers that is the .38 spl. In semi autos it's the 9mm, with the added benefit that in the semi, you also get the benefit of more rounds available.

G: In .357 Sig, you get a 9mm hopped up about another 200 fps or so from 9mm Parabellum. Since both cartridges will drive a bullet of ordinary weight (115 to 147 grains) to a speed that will penetrate adequately, you get no gain, but give up more recoil (slower shooting) and magazine capacity (fewer shots).

H: Generalizing from F and G, if you're carrying more than a .38 spl or a 9mm for self-protection, and don't have some rare highly specialized reason to do so (example: doubling as bear defense), you are overpowered and may pay the price.

Bottom line, people need to support claims for me to take them seriously. You've provided very little in the way of specificity preferring generalities without any supporting evidence. I've been warned about you in private messages, and I see why. Without data, you are providing me with nothing to back up your assertions and much of what you said is easily refuted. I've provided much more information and have received very little in return which suggests you may be more concerned with being right than arriving at any sort of truth, so let's just agree to utterly disagree.

 

[pharmer]

My friend offered to go in half with me if I bought a case of HST 147. Considering it is $800 a case, it sounded great however,........

That's where you went wrong. Last year( ok, maybe year before), Target Sports had Federal "bonded HST LE" ammo for $15/ box. 124gr or 147, +P or not. My only mistake was not buying more than one case. I only have 650 rds left, mostly gifting the rest to friends wanting the best but not wanting to pay the $50-$60/ box at the now non-existent gun shows. I fire exactly 24 rds of this/ yr so I'm hoping I got enough until half an hour past dead. Joe

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Bottom Line:

A: .357 Sig and .40 S&W should never have been born; they are solutions looking for a non-existent problem. Now here's the heresy: The .45 ACP should also never have been born. It doesn't do anything to a person that a 9mm won't do just the same. They talk about the Moros, but never tell you the sequel, which is, the .45 didn't work any better than .38, and some Moros weren't even stopped by the .30-40 Krag rifle round.

B: 9mm Parabellum is all you need for anti-personnel work. The rest of the world somehow gets by without noticing any lack of lethality.

C: Big pistol cartridges are quintessentially American. They are useful for hunting, bear defense, and certain types of competition, but no more. Dirty Harry would have been better served with a Model 10 in .38 spl than the Magnum.

D: Shot placement and penetration are 100%. There is no evidence that can be gleaned from people who have been shot, be they living or dead, that hollow points, trick bullets, faster bullets, lighter bullets, heavier bullets, have any discernible differential effects.

E. They survive who put the most bullets in vital areas of the bad guy. The corollary is that more shots available is good, and less recoil means faster shots, which is even better. The conclusion from this is that the best cartridge is one that gives adequate penetration with the least recoil.

F: Building from E, in revolvers that is the .38 spl. In semi autos it's the 9mm, with the added benefit that in the semi, you also get the benefit of more rounds available.

G: In .357 Sig, you get a 9mm hopped up about another 200 fps or so from 9mm Parabellum. Since both cartridges will drive a bullet of ordinary weight (115 to 147 grains) to a speed that will penetrate adequately, you get no gain, but give up more recoil (slower shooting) and magazine capacity (fewer shots).

H: Generalizing from F and G, if you're carrying more than a .38 spl or a 9mm for self-protection, and don't have some rare highly specialized reason to do so (example: doubling as bear defense), you are overpowered and may pay the price.

You know what they say about opinions...........Everybody's got one. essentially yours is no better than mine or any other forum member.

 

[Injunbro]

By the same token why not shoot a .22 magnum since it's way superior to the .22 LR or a .500 S&W instead of the wimpier handguns? Shot placement is what works, not power. I know of more than 1 who killed black bears w/ .22LR's & recently a guide stopped a charging grizzly w/ a 9mm. Buy what you like & learn to shoot it accurately.

 

[jupiter1]

They talk about the Moros, but never tell you the sequel, which is, the .45 didn't work any better than .38, and some Moros weren't even stopped by the .30-40 Krag rifle round.

I noticed that years ago while doing a lot of reading on the subject; nothing was written about the sequel. However, it was stated that the 12 ga shotgun was the most reliable performer for the troops in the Philippines. That was mainly because there were 9 chances of hitting a vital structure with one well placed shot.

 

[jupiter1]

That perfect .66 caliber mushroom will cause much more damage, and maybe cut that artery that the FMJ slipped by.
The 9mm would have a much better reputation these days if there weren't so many ineffectual hits caused by FMJ, or by older design JHPs that didn't expand.

Pretty much the same can be said for any smooth FMJ bullet, no matter the diameter. I doubt there is any measurable difference in effectiveness between a .45 and 9mm FMJ in that regard.

A jagged, expanded projectile may slice an artery much like a broadhead is designed to do. A broadhead tipped arrow is a great killer of game that needs to be harvested. But game, most times, needs to be tracked a good distance before collapse due to blood loss.

Incapacitation of a determined human attacker needs a bullet that breaks things or a CNS hit; much like a large bear needs, and which is why most people carrying a handgun for bear defense rely on solids. Relying on the ability of a hollow point bullet to clip a bear's artery will likely result in a bled out bear lying on top of a shredded human.