jhnttrpp
Member
I actually thought of trying to find a better word for it but gave up and posted anyhow. My apologies.
Where is the quality control......
- Thread starter Annihilator
- Start date
I actually thought of trying to find a better word for it but gave up and posted anyhow. My apologies.
bigpappa160
Member
No offense, but why are you telling me this?I haven't said anything to you, about you, or about you buying a gun. Now have I? This is the only comment of yours that I've replied to in this thread.
I wasn't referring to you, period. If I'd been referring to you, I would have quoted you. Okay?
Watchdog, I apologize, just thought your were referring to my post or reply! And Yes I know now to look for quote's before typing away! I apologize again! Hope no heart feelings
I know what you were trying to convey.
The line workers are doing what the bean counters tell them to do.
Sometimes we fail to realize S&W workers are like most workers. They want to do a good job and make a living for their families. They are our neighbors, friends, family, and US taxpayers.
I do find people calling them monkeys, as others have done on this board but not you,to be offensive.
Peace.
Last edited:
That's not what you wrote in the original post:
Own it. It was broken when you picked it up.
TeaDub
Member
My only new production Smith just broke after 100 rounds. My 638 seized up at the end of it's second trip to the range. I have now adjusted my thoughts on "break in" periods for new revolvers. Previously, I had thought that putting a box of practice ammo along with a couple cylinders of my carry load was sufficient for occasional carry. No longer.
So far, Smith's customer service has done the right thing. A quick phone call got my shipping label. A few days later and they had the gun (yesterday). I have every confidence they will make it right.
Anyone have a guess as to what happened to my J-frame? Here is what happened: One box of standard pressure, factory ammo. About 2/3 of the way through, the cylinder latch became "sticky" feeling. After the last group of 5 was shot, I emptied the gun and closed the cylinder. I then tried to open it again, but it was stuck solid. The cylinder will rotate and the trigger functions. The cylinder latch is completely forward but can be moved rearward with little pressure. I even put a thin shim between the ejector rod and the detent pin (?) but the cylinder refused to open.
I'm curious what Smith will diagnose the issue as. I am content to let them make it right. After many years of owning and shooting their guns, this is the first one to go back. When it returns, it'll get vetted much more thoroughly before it gets carried.
So far, Smith's customer service has done the right thing. A quick phone call got my shipping label. A few days later and they had the gun (yesterday). I have every confidence they will make it right.
Anyone have a guess as to what happened to my J-frame? Here is what happened: One box of standard pressure, factory ammo. About 2/3 of the way through, the cylinder latch became "sticky" feeling. After the last group of 5 was shot, I emptied the gun and closed the cylinder. I then tried to open it again, but it was stuck solid. The cylinder will rotate and the trigger functions. The cylinder latch is completely forward but can be moved rearward with little pressure. I even put a thin shim between the ejector rod and the detent pin (?) but the cylinder refused to open.
I'm curious what Smith will diagnose the issue as. I am content to let them make it right. After many years of owning and shooting their guns, this is the first one to go back. When it returns, it'll get vetted much more thoroughly before it gets carried.
Confederate Tyrant
Member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2013
- Messages
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OP,
I understand what you mean how small things should not have left the factory. If your smith took care of it and now you really like the gun, then that's all that matters. So far, I've only had one issue with a S&W, and it was resolved under warranty.
I purchased a used 29-10 last year and, according to the original owner, he only shot it 12-24 times then put it in the safe. When I received it, the single action was smooth, but the double action pull was rough. Approximately half way through the double-action pull, it would hang up and require a lot of force to complete the pull. This made for very inaccurate double-action shooting.
After about a year and 200+ rounds (with no improvements in the trigger feel), I finally contacted S&W and they sent me a shipping label. I shipped it off at the end of April and received it yesterday. The double action trigger is now as smooth as my S&W 500 PC. According to S&W they had to replace the hammer, sear, and sear spring.
Should I have had to do this? No, because any tech who would have tested that trigger should have realized something was wrong. However, I understand that s*** happens, and they made it right without any fuss.
I understand what you mean how small things should not have left the factory. If your smith took care of it and now you really like the gun, then that's all that matters. So far, I've only had one issue with a S&W, and it was resolved under warranty.
I purchased a used 29-10 last year and, according to the original owner, he only shot it 12-24 times then put it in the safe. When I received it, the single action was smooth, but the double action pull was rough. Approximately half way through the double-action pull, it would hang up and require a lot of force to complete the pull. This made for very inaccurate double-action shooting.
After about a year and 200+ rounds (with no improvements in the trigger feel), I finally contacted S&W and they sent me a shipping label. I shipped it off at the end of April and received it yesterday. The double action trigger is now as smooth as my S&W 500 PC. According to S&W they had to replace the hammer, sear, and sear spring.
Should I have had to do this? No, because any tech who would have tested that trigger should have realized something was wrong. However, I understand that s*** happens, and they made it right without any fuss.
Well, let's say.....
Well, let's say that up until recently warranty repairs had priority and a good turn around. But now things change very quickly.
Well, let's say that up until recently warranty repairs had priority and a good turn around. But now things change very quickly.
Is that so??
I didn't have to send my repair through an FFL. They give you a label and there are some special instructions for shipping a gun and it's dropped off at Fed Ex..
I didn't have to send my repair through an FFL. They give you a label and there are some special instructions for shipping a gun and it's dropped off at Fed Ex..
I have been handling Smith & Wesson revolvers for about 50 years, which counts only as I am old and have a lot of opportunity to handle them. 
So, some observations, if you will.
I am particularly fond of N frame and especially those made after WWll through say 1960. Most of them are well made and have great timing and work well. But, a few years ago I bought a little used .357 Magnum serial number 95xxx made in early 1950s, expecting a perfect gun. Well, didn't happen. The timing was terrible, with some chambers binding and some did not carry up. Empty cases had to be pounded out of the cylinder, one chamber extracted fine, the remaining 5 with different levels of difficulty. I finally had the chambers polished and I spent a good bit of time getting the time right. Now the gun works very well and I have been shooting it a lot with light magnum loads.
A lot of folks point to the guns made in the 1970s as great guns. Well, when I handled them new back then they were mostly horrible!!! Timing was inconsistent on almost all model 27s I handled, lthe action felt like and actually did have left over grit inside. I bought a brand new 27 in 1970 that the cylinder had a hard to turn spot in it. It took about 4 seconds for a S&W employee to fix it as I was there to watch!!
I recently bought a nice Model 63 here on the forum. Shot it yesterday and found that it shot low with the rear sight all the way to the top. Tall front sight, short rear blade. The barrel was slightly clocked and the sight had to be moved to the right a bit. The sight picture was still good, so not a real problem. Ordered a taller blade. My question is why install a short blade and a tall front sight?? The gun is from around 1982.
So, yes, not all guns in all eras are perfect. There are some that get out that have flaws and we just fix them and have a fine working gun. Is this era worse than others? I don't think so. From what I remember, the 1970s were the worst! Today with CNC machining the insides are much smoother than ever before and the steel used is better than yesteryears.
While I do not like the lock and the change in the frame styling, I think Smith still makes a lot of good guns.
So, some observations, if you will.
I am particularly fond of N frame and especially those made after WWll through say 1960. Most of them are well made and have great timing and work well. But, a few years ago I bought a little used .357 Magnum serial number 95xxx made in early 1950s, expecting a perfect gun. Well, didn't happen. The timing was terrible, with some chambers binding and some did not carry up. Empty cases had to be pounded out of the cylinder, one chamber extracted fine, the remaining 5 with different levels of difficulty. I finally had the chambers polished and I spent a good bit of time getting the time right. Now the gun works very well and I have been shooting it a lot with light magnum loads.
A lot of folks point to the guns made in the 1970s as great guns. Well, when I handled them new back then they were mostly horrible!!! Timing was inconsistent on almost all model 27s I handled, lthe action felt like and actually did have left over grit inside. I bought a brand new 27 in 1970 that the cylinder had a hard to turn spot in it. It took about 4 seconds for a S&W employee to fix it as I was there to watch!!
I recently bought a nice Model 63 here on the forum. Shot it yesterday and found that it shot low with the rear sight all the way to the top. Tall front sight, short rear blade. The barrel was slightly clocked and the sight had to be moved to the right a bit. The sight picture was still good, so not a real problem. Ordered a taller blade. My question is why install a short blade and a tall front sight?? The gun is from around 1982.
So, yes, not all guns in all eras are perfect. There are some that get out that have flaws and we just fix them and have a fine working gun. Is this era worse than others? I don't think so. From what I remember, the 1970s were the worst! Today with CNC machining the insides are much smoother than ever before and the steel used is better than yesteryears.
While I do not like the lock and the change in the frame styling, I think Smith still makes a lot of good guns.
FifthWheel
US Veteran
My new 617 had a timing issue. Called them and they emailed me a shipping label, fedex picked up at front door and dropped off at door after S&W replaced the hand. Didn't cost me anything and is one of my favorite guns. About 3 weeks total.
My guess would be that the ejector rod came loose. This caused it to get longer. Would take more pressure on the thumb piece and be difficult to open. They tried to improve this over the older models by going to left hand threads on the rod, but, it still happens.
I should probably make this a separate thread, as I am not posting this in reference to the OP's post. Let's talk about quality for a bit though and manufacturing in the US along with that in the world.
Before the 70's, the United States was THE manufacturing capital of the world. WWII proved we were versatile quick to design and could produce in massive amounts. However, feelings about quality of the "good old days" is misplaced. I'll start with the auto industry as I am intimately familiar with it in many respects. I used to hear "They don't build them like the used too" a lot, and it was true, but not in the manner in which people were repeating it. While the autos of the 40's, 50's and 60's were good and had their place, they were a far cry from what the car has evolved to today. Let me remind you that cars of that era required oil changes at 1200 miles and some didn't even have oil filters. Tires, brakes, spark plugs, points, condensers, and plug wires often had to be replaced in as little as 10,000 miles, and a car that lasted 100,000 was rare. Not only that, but they required fuel with lead and averaged around 10 to 12 mpg. Who would want a car like that today? What drove the change in today's cars was competition, and not domestic competition, but competition from one of our WWII enemies. During the rebuilding of Japan, the Japanese were smart enough to know that a manufacturing base economy was the fastest way for their country to recover. Everything they tried to make however was junk, so much so that in America, Made in Japan became a pseudonym for the work junk. Japanases manufacturers sought help and found it in an American by the name of Dr. Deming. Deming had some basic manufacturing philosophies that made sense but were largely ignored by American manufacturers. In Japan, he basically found a clean plate to implement his philosophies, and willing participants in the Japanese people. His major philosophy was that quality didn't cost, it paid. In simple terms, he said that to do what was necessary to build a quality product may cost initially, but in the long run, it will pay because you spend less time fixing bad products or trying to defend a reputation for shoddy workmanship. He also preached that inspectors were unnecessary. If you make each worker responsible for his portion of the manufacturing process and give him/her the tools in which to perform that job properly, they in turn become your inspectors and work not only to weed out bad parts, but to correct the cause so it didn't happen again. Before long, the Japanese were killing the US electronics markets. The transistor was invented here, but skilled yet cheap Japanese labor could assemble radios and later televisions made from this revolutionary item better and cheaper than American workers could. Soon, RCA, Motorola and Zenith stopped making electronic parts here and either closed shop, or went to Japan.
Next came the auto industry. People laughed when Japanese cars started showing up in the US. Under powered and undersized, no one wanted them, until the oil embargo of the early 70's. Suddenly people discovered those under powered small cars got great fuel mileage. To make a very long and involved story short, the US auto industry came very close to going the way of RCA, Motorola and Zenith. Today's cars are vastly superior to what the Big Three produced in the 80's and even 90's, and continue to get better. They have to or else people won't buy them.
The manufacturing base in this country for durable goods: washing machines, refrigerators and the like, all learned the same lesson, make a good product or someone else in another country will. I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of the economic impact this has had, as I would need far more space and time. But there are segments of our manufacturing base that has not experienced this global competition. One of them is the RB industry. About 4 years ago, I toured one of the premiere RV manufacturers. At the end of their assembly line they had the latest finished product that had at least 30 pieces of masking tape stuck on various parts of the outside. The factory rep proudly told us that each one of those pieces of tape represented a defect the final inspector had found! Holy cow! A car coming off any assembly plant in the world with that many found defects would result in some plant manager having a coronary, but here, they were actually proud!
S&W has two major things working against them. The first is they have not yet learned the lesson of competition from a country with skilled workers earning 1/3 the wages. In addition currently, many Americans in the firearms community would rather eat saw dust before they would buy a revolver made in Japan or China (especially China), but as us older folks die out, the younger generation will not have such compunctions. Remember what I said about laughing at the Japanese cars? When that perception changes, S&W, along with Ruger, Sig and even Glock will have to adapt or face the consequences. The second thing working against S&W is their culture. It's the age old "profit is king" and "bean counters rule" way of life. Profits are important, that goes without saying, but when manufacturers are run by economics alone, they can only last until someone else comes along and makes up for their short comings, much as the Japanese did to the Big Three and electronic companies. S&W basically has a captive market, at least for now, but that can and eventually will change. The really bad thing that is happening not only at S&W but other US manufacturing facilities is their mind set that they really believe they are doing well. Short term, during the past 8 years, S&W did indeed do well, virtually selling everything they could get out the door, but that scenario has changed, and S&W, like Colt, could be facing some tough times a head. Getting a reputation for poor or even questionable quality will be far more damaging under current conditions. Hopefully, as things cool down, S&W will take time to sit back and look at these issues, dedicating time, resources and training at all levels from the shop floor to the executive officers to become a company that can withstand an outside competitor. Time will tell.
Before the 70's, the United States was THE manufacturing capital of the world. WWII proved we were versatile quick to design and could produce in massive amounts. However, feelings about quality of the "good old days" is misplaced. I'll start with the auto industry as I am intimately familiar with it in many respects. I used to hear "They don't build them like the used too" a lot, and it was true, but not in the manner in which people were repeating it. While the autos of the 40's, 50's and 60's were good and had their place, they were a far cry from what the car has evolved to today. Let me remind you that cars of that era required oil changes at 1200 miles and some didn't even have oil filters. Tires, brakes, spark plugs, points, condensers, and plug wires often had to be replaced in as little as 10,000 miles, and a car that lasted 100,000 was rare. Not only that, but they required fuel with lead and averaged around 10 to 12 mpg. Who would want a car like that today? What drove the change in today's cars was competition, and not domestic competition, but competition from one of our WWII enemies. During the rebuilding of Japan, the Japanese were smart enough to know that a manufacturing base economy was the fastest way for their country to recover. Everything they tried to make however was junk, so much so that in America, Made in Japan became a pseudonym for the work junk. Japanases manufacturers sought help and found it in an American by the name of Dr. Deming. Deming had some basic manufacturing philosophies that made sense but were largely ignored by American manufacturers. In Japan, he basically found a clean plate to implement his philosophies, and willing participants in the Japanese people. His major philosophy was that quality didn't cost, it paid. In simple terms, he said that to do what was necessary to build a quality product may cost initially, but in the long run, it will pay because you spend less time fixing bad products or trying to defend a reputation for shoddy workmanship. He also preached that inspectors were unnecessary. If you make each worker responsible for his portion of the manufacturing process and give him/her the tools in which to perform that job properly, they in turn become your inspectors and work not only to weed out bad parts, but to correct the cause so it didn't happen again. Before long, the Japanese were killing the US electronics markets. The transistor was invented here, but skilled yet cheap Japanese labor could assemble radios and later televisions made from this revolutionary item better and cheaper than American workers could. Soon, RCA, Motorola and Zenith stopped making electronic parts here and either closed shop, or went to Japan.
Next came the auto industry. People laughed when Japanese cars started showing up in the US. Under powered and undersized, no one wanted them, until the oil embargo of the early 70's. Suddenly people discovered those under powered small cars got great fuel mileage. To make a very long and involved story short, the US auto industry came very close to going the way of RCA, Motorola and Zenith. Today's cars are vastly superior to what the Big Three produced in the 80's and even 90's, and continue to get better. They have to or else people won't buy them.
The manufacturing base in this country for durable goods: washing machines, refrigerators and the like, all learned the same lesson, make a good product or someone else in another country will. I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of the economic impact this has had, as I would need far more space and time. But there are segments of our manufacturing base that has not experienced this global competition. One of them is the RB industry. About 4 years ago, I toured one of the premiere RV manufacturers. At the end of their assembly line they had the latest finished product that had at least 30 pieces of masking tape stuck on various parts of the outside. The factory rep proudly told us that each one of those pieces of tape represented a defect the final inspector had found! Holy cow! A car coming off any assembly plant in the world with that many found defects would result in some plant manager having a coronary, but here, they were actually proud!
S&W has two major things working against them. The first is they have not yet learned the lesson of competition from a country with skilled workers earning 1/3 the wages. In addition currently, many Americans in the firearms community would rather eat saw dust before they would buy a revolver made in Japan or China (especially China), but as us older folks die out, the younger generation will not have such compunctions. Remember what I said about laughing at the Japanese cars? When that perception changes, S&W, along with Ruger, Sig and even Glock will have to adapt or face the consequences. The second thing working against S&W is their culture. It's the age old "profit is king" and "bean counters rule" way of life. Profits are important, that goes without saying, but when manufacturers are run by economics alone, they can only last until someone else comes along and makes up for their short comings, much as the Japanese did to the Big Three and electronic companies. S&W basically has a captive market, at least for now, but that can and eventually will change. The really bad thing that is happening not only at S&W but other US manufacturing facilities is their mind set that they really believe they are doing well. Short term, during the past 8 years, S&W did indeed do well, virtually selling everything they could get out the door, but that scenario has changed, and S&W, like Colt, could be facing some tough times a head. Getting a reputation for poor or even questionable quality will be far more damaging under current conditions. Hopefully, as things cool down, S&W will take time to sit back and look at these issues, dedicating time, resources and training at all levels from the shop floor to the executive officers to become a company that can withstand an outside competitor. Time will tell.
Excellent post Tom.
I would be happy with 10-12 mpg if it were a 67 Hemi GTX or a 69 Shelby GT500
I would be happy with 10-12 mpg if it were a 67 Hemi GTX or a 69 Shelby GT500
Excellent post Tom.
I would be happy with 10-12 mpg if it were a 67 Hemi GTX or a 69 Shelby GT500
My 64 Impala SS 409 got between 7 and 10 MPG, as did my 63 Gran Prix with the 421 HO and tri-power, and that was premium, but fuel was a lot more affordable then.
I don't think quality control is any worse than it ever was. I think that the internet simply allows us the convenience of hearing about it all the time.s
I also think that people have gradually developed outrageous expectations. I've seen guns sent back on this forum for such minor flaws you'd be hard-pressed to spot them until pointed out. You can expect perfection in a custom-built handgun--these are factory items.
I also think that people have gradually developed outrageous expectations. I've seen guns sent back on this forum for such minor flaws you'd be hard-pressed to spot them until pointed out. You can expect perfection in a custom-built handgun--these are factory items.
.
For example, a (Standard off the shelf) 686+, is 849.00 (164192)
A, ‘Performance Center”, 686+PC 1089.00 (170346)
Which is advertised as: “From hand-cutting and fitting to fine tuning for precision, these firearms are top performers. Products from the Performance Center are the ultimate expression of old-world craftsmanship blended with modern technology”.
Is $240.00 more, (Prices just MSP).
So what do you get for that, 240 more?
The same chance, of getting a bad one?
So why, pay more, for what is, ‘advertised’, as a Superior Piece?
Is it just for ‘looks’ ?
Or is it for ‘Performance” ?
Because it sure is the SAME, chance of getting a bad one.
You have a very good chance to get a, ‘off the shelf’ model.
That Preforms, Better, than a, ‘Performance’ model.
This is NOT, Slamming S&W, or their C.S., which is, ‘mostly really good’.
It is about Buying, ANY Product, that is NOT as it is advertised as.
Any product.
From a garden hose, to a house.
BUT, as long as someone keep buying it. It will be made.
And more people buy it, the Quality gets worse and worse.
Because people keep, Buying, it.
If someone, stops buying something, it goes away, or the quality gets better.
S&W, is not close to that point.
(Real Hard to dig out of a hole though. Don’t think they want to go their.)
Perhaps, if S&W knew, (us writing letters, and Nice letters, telling them the purchasers of their produce expect something Better, than, ‘Off The Shelf’, when they pay for a, ‘Performance’ model at a lot more money. And they expect the, ‘odds’, of getting a bad one, should be a whole lot less!)
And the statement:
“And as long as people keep buying them they will not care”
It is SO True.
To a manufacture of something, (not just a firearm).
When I buy something, I pay you,
you, don’t pay me.
Why ‘big on line sellers’, ‘usually', have worse guns than, brick and motor stores ?
From my experience having a gun shop. (a while ago)
Local Salesman comes in with a arm/s full of things I ordered.
Next week, same thing, but 2-4 times a year, would hand him a firearm back,
(Not just S&W’s)
And say: "this one is defective, credit my account". and they would. (The distributors far away delivered by UPS) so it constituted a phone call to my sales person their, to get the credit + shipping)
Point is, what did the Distributor do with those?
Did they ship them out to a, ’Shotgun News’, seller?
Today, sure that a inspection, and a return to the Distributor still happens, but again, where do they go?
Perhaps to, BUDS and the like ?
From my experience having a gun shop. (a while ago)
Local Salesman comes in with a arm/s full of things I ordered.
Next week, same thing, but 2-4 times a year, would hand him a firearm back,
(Not just S&W’s)
And say: "this one is defective, credit my account". and they would. (The distributors far away delivered by UPS) so it constituted a phone call to my sales person their, to get the credit + shipping)
Point is, what did the Distributor do with those?
Did they ship them out to a, ’Shotgun News’, seller?
Today, sure that a inspection, and a return to the Distributor still happens, but again, where do they go?
Perhaps to, BUDS and the like ?
MichiganScott
Member
It would appear that you are accusing the whole firearms industry of collusion to dump recycled defective merchandise on the market. The anti-gunners would love to sit down with you and the inside information that you apparently have in your possession.
Ashlander
Member
I read it as asking a reasonable question; i.e., what happens to returned guns that are still NIB? Human nature is a lot like water finding a path of least resistance. No collusion is necessary - just some (he did not say all) sales people turning over product with as little muss and fuss as possible.
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