Which Martial Arts to Learn?

[CAJUNLAWYER]

This is what I am talking about

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkccqolaVGg[/ame]

 

[malph]

Most of these systems have been tried in an MMA setting and found pretty lacking at least in their pure and stylized form.

Join an MMA gym, jujitsu dojo, Brazilian judo, or MuThai club. Make sure the instructor there is not a bonehead and is empathetic to your age related limitations.

Someone mentioned combat mindset. They were absolutely right. Simple, proven techniques applied with aggression is way more effective than flowery stuff.

Learn some basic elbow, knee, headbutts, kicks and punches. Learn some basic grappling and chokes. And practice....a lot.

None of this stuff will allow the average guy to take on Mike Tyson. Physicality matters in hand to hand. Sorry but just about any Kung Fool or Karate instructor would last less then ten seconds with someone like that. By someone like that I mean someone who actually fights. Martial Arts where you don't actually fight with non compliant adversaries tend not to work when an actual adversary is well...non compliant.

You can practice all the forms you want but until you face guys trying to punch you in the face or twist you into a pretzel on a consistent basis, you will not have the timing and skillset to deal with that.

I might be pissing people off with this post but I'm telling it like I see it.


Your biggest advantage as an oldster is taking someone by surprise as they will mark you as an easy victim and perhaps have their guard down.

There is a lot of BS in martial arts. You will spend a lot of time working on things that have little to nothing to do with practical fighting.

 

[snubbyfan]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpYTvQjuj4E[/ame]

 

[malph]

Just having trained in a particular martial art for even decades doesn't mean an individual actually understands that art well or can execute the techniques effectively in a defense scenario. Their instructor may be lacking, they themselves may lack the prerequisite athletic ability or they may studied(wrongly) for a year and then simply repeated that for 19 more. People often don't know what they don't know,

In regards to sport vs street. If you're capable of being a very good cage/ring fighter, you're also capable of being very good on the street. If you think dirty tricks will help against an athletically superior sport fighter, pretty much any MMA gym will have numerous fighters willing you to test it out.

Size does matter even if it's not everything. I'd much rather fight a 125 lb "master" of any martial art than I would an NFL linebacker.

You can spend ten years learning some 'do' and still not be able to actually fight. Or you can spend a year in a boxing gym...the boxing gym guy will be a much improved fighter in a year.

 

[Ziggy2525]

...
Someone mentioned combat mindset. They were absolutely right. Simple, proven techniques applied with aggression is way more effective than flowery stuff.

Learn some basic elbow, knee, headbutts, kicks and punches. Learn some basic grappling and chokes. And practice....a lot.
...
...
Your biggest advantage as an oldster is taking someone by surprise as they will mark you as an easy victim and perhaps have their guard down.
...

For me, this ^^^. In my mid-60's, even in decent shape, I'm not going to outfight an athletic 18 year old gangster. I figure the best I'll be able to do is pay better attention and if attacked try to get in one, maybe two, hits that are painful enough I can get a bit of distance to use either pepper spray or a pistol to defend myself. There are no sure things. Sometimes things will work out, sometimes they might not.

 

[Mister X]

You can spend ten years learning some 'do' and still not be able to actually fight. Or you can spend a year in a boxing gym...the boxing gym guy will be a much improved fighter in a year.

....

It depends on the particular Do, the specific school and the individuals involved.

I'd generally put my money on a Judoka overcoming a Boxer in a fight involving two individuals of similar size, athletic ability and status in their sport. Boxing can be a very effective element to incorporate into your H2H repertoire, but as a standalone method, it's very limited, especially considering the current prominence of MMA.

Even world class boxers have faired very poorly in the UFC if they lacked other skill-sets. I would even favor most good high school wrestlers over most professional boxers in a street fight. If you have no grappling experience or understanding how to counter and stuff takedowns, you're likely going to ground against a decent grappler and will be unable to get back to your feet. Some Karate-Do schools teach the art like it was intended, and I would probably favor them over most boxers all other things being equal.

Keep in mind, the topic here is self-defense, not fighting. There's a big difference. The dynamics of a street assault doesn't play out like a sparring or boxing/kicking/karate match which could be considered a form of dueling. Mike Janich offers some valid commentary here... THE MBC TRAINING BLOG: Sparring and Self-Defense Training

 

[Mister X]

While not a comprehensive list, nor do I endorse all context, I think these channels are worth your time.

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

https://m.youtube.com/user/angelajudochop/videos

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCOpJFauNooW0jd3-QOKeHmA

https://m.youtube.com/user/hatmakercombatsports/videos

https://m.youtube.com/user/practicalkatabunkai/videos

 

[hardluk1]

A little guy my age that worked for my dad grew up in Miami in the mid '50 to mid seventys when her moved to the west coast and went to work with use . His knuckles were all callused up and he could punch at a block wall with a fair amount of energy .

He would also stand in a slide door opening and rotate a kick up to the concrete headers . He was about 5-6 or 7 and weight was about 150lb or 160 . IF I slapped him on the back it was more like slapping your gun safe , nothing soft .

Over time I found out he fought full contact as a brown belt for 2 years and when I ask what martial arts ? He said well its a little of this and a little of that IT was a called defensive fighting technics . And his master kept him at a lower belt levels for competitive reasons !

Both of use had hot rods back then and one night a guy showed up at a hot rod shop we both wrong around and a one night a couple guys came back that were regulars . One guy was BIG about 6'4 and 320 and was druuunk and he had been our high schools multi time state wrestling champ of florida . He asked if any one wanted to hit him in the belly that no one there could hurt him . NO fighting back , just hit him in the belly with your best shot . Couple guys there could called knock out specialist in a bar fight took there shot at him , one guy was good sized x marine that hardly got his attention and he just dusted off his belly then the big guy rubbed little mikes head and said how about you little guy and rubbed his head again . Mikes say sure I'll try . He was well short of arms reach away and fairly well squared up to him and with a very fast short punch that cause the big man to stagger back a couple steps and fall flat . We started to call for the ambulance but the big guy finally got some air moving again , puked up what was in him . Finally a few minutes later got up and told MIke - please remind me not to piss you off . They turned out to be best buddy's . Mike said that was the first time he really got ticked off and wanted to shut some one up . I lost touch with him a couple years later but never heard of him getting mad again and he stopped training as he said what was taught around our area was playing martial arts not the real deal .

 

[WR Moore]

My understanding of Aikido is that it was originally developed as defense against an opponent armed with a sword.

You err. Developed late 19th century. Has many similarities to Ju-Jitsu.

I do believe ANY training is better than no training.

True, the idea is to develop habituated responses to a specific attack.

 

[Hapworth]

... to me personally to read about martial arts for SD on this gun forum is a bit hilarious. Hand to hand combat martial arts were developed by and for people who did not have access to weapons of the day which were spears, swords and alike. We have guns! You know, those instruments that help small and weak to defend against big and strong?

"God Created Men and Sam Colt Made Them Equal!"

So many situations where there isn't time or opportunity to get your piece into play, where even simple hand and grappling skills, footwork and a little physical fitness become essential.

But that's okay, I find the dudes who think it only plays out like a Western and that just carrying a gun means they're armed hilarious, so laughs all around...

 

[crazyphil]

I had some wrestling and boxing in school, some boxing and a little
hand to hand in the military, and a few years of Kenpo training, but
I think the best training I ever had was working part-time through
my college years as a bouncer at a raunchy night club. College boys
and cowboys. I had an edge. I was sober. They were not.

 

[7shooter]

I've studied a half dozen different martial arts over the last 60 years. Only a couple couple have been useful to me in real world fights. I don't think most of the instructors had been in a fight. The two that I drew on the most were wrestling skills I learned in high school and college and street fighting survival skills I learned as a kid.
I did enjoy them all even though they might not work in real situations. I got hit by an enraged psychotic when I attempted to use an Aikido technique I had recently learned. Worked great in class. I would have avoided getting hit if I had used a wrestling take down.

 

[roo_ster]

What are you referring to when you say full contact and could you provide an example of patty-cake sparring.

While I'd agree that pressure-testing techniques against reacting, resisting opponents and learning to deal with momentum in particular is beneficial, I no longer see putting on the gloves and going at it like a boxer or kickboxer as being necessary or even all that useful in the context of self-defense. You could even say it actually contradicts the whole purpose of the training. There are better and safer means to achieve our goals. Plus, actual street attacks don't usually resemble sparring or consensual street-fights(dueling). I for sure wouldn't recommend full contact sparring for a female interested in personal defense not only because the risk of injury, but also because the techniques she would be learning wouldn't actually likely be very practical or effective for self-defense unless she is exceptional.

I think white cloud covers quite a bit of it.

…If you are not in shape all this is a waste of time. If you don't learn what it feels like to get knocked down, all this is a waste of time. If your martial art is about sport, it's a waste of time. If your instructor is not a fighter, it's a waste of time. If you can't get your game face on really go at it with someone, it's a waste of time. I have a learned distrust of any martial art who's name ends with "do"....

Full contact means we are going after each other at full speed and not holding back. Think going a round in the ring (boxing, KB, etc.) PPE is fine, but not mandatory. I didn't want nasty-looking head injury, broken hands, or the family jewels smashed, so I wore head gear, some light sparring gloves that allowed grip, and an athletic supporter with hard cup.

Patty cake is almost every single MA tournament I have seen and almost every single dojo/training course I have seen. Another name would be "stylized tag." Most every competition has risible ROE that are ridiculous even for patty-cake sparring that make their form of patty-cake viable in a sport/tournament context.

Full contact is the only way to get a taste--even in a controlled setting--of what a resisted fight might be like. Heck, I am too old for that sort of thing anymore. Which is why tote a firearm and/or blade. I have years of training, I am still stronger than most any man I'll meet...but I am older, not as flexible, a bit fatter, and don't have the wind I used to. And I am slower. I have enough experience in years past to know I'll need some technology to even the odds vs the usual violent predator.

Which is why I suggest wrestling to every parent that asks me. "Which MA should I involve my kid in?" It is resisted, full speed, contact _without_ strikes or the really nasty joint manipulations. It teaches the most important lessons you might learn from MA while keeping the kiddos from taking blows to the head and minimizing risks of other broken bones.

Women are, for the most part, wasting their time in open-hand MA if they are doing it for self-defense purposes. The best women are about as physical as an athletic middle school/JrHS boy. You don't put the most talented 8th graders up against a full grown man, because you know the full grown man will murder the kid. I wrote I was uncompetitive in my weight class. I got out before I developed any serious repetitive impact brain injury (or speech impediment, YAY ME!) , but a gal taking any single good hit very likely would have died from a TBI.

I have no problem with folk training in whatever MA suits their fancy. They can be fun and keep you in shape. But don't kid yourself that playing patty-cake tag is preparation for self defense. Most instructors who tout that are lying to you. Even the Krav Maga-ists and MMA-ers. I once questioned a MMA gym owner and asked him about their sparring. Think "vigorous wrestling with tap-outs and no strikes." Which is what we did in my unit before MMA became all the rage. A step up from wrestling, but still lacking.

 

[Mister X]

Andre Tippett

Known primarily for his NFL career, but also an established karate practitioner. I trained with him back in the early 90's and consider him a friend. Here's some footage from some of his kumite matches. Not full contact, but hardly what I'd call "patty-cake" nor would I consider him likely lacking in his ability to handle himself in a street-fight despite his martial education being limited primarily to sports. Although I'd agree there are better avenues to self-defense preparedness for most people, I highly doubt there are many here that would have been willing to step up to educate a guy like him on the error of his ways.

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q5OH8uSt_x4[/ame]

 

[diyj98]

You err. Developed late 19th century. Has many similarities to Ju-Jitsu.

Perhaps not as much as you think. The Japanese were still big on swords in the late 19th century and early 20th century. The Aikido I've seen seems to place quite a bit of concentration on defense against swords for some reason.

 

[snubbyfan]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmfudW7rbG0[/ame]

 

[Protected One]

Which is why I suggest wrestling to every parent that asks me. "Which MA should I involve my kid in?" It is resisted, full speed, contact _without_ strikes or the really nasty joint manipulations. It teaches the most important lessons you might learn from MA while keeping the kiddos from taking blows to the head and minimizing risks of other broken bones.

Women are, for the most part, wasting their time in open-hand MA if they are doing it for self-defense purposes. The best women are about as physical as an athletic middle school/JrHS boy. You don't put the most talented 8th graders up against a full grown man, because you know the full grown man will murder the kid. I wrote I was uncompetitive in my weight class. I got out before I developed any serious repetitive impact brain injury (or speech impediment, YAY ME!) , but a gal taking any single good hit very likely would have died from a TBI.

I have no problem with folk training in whatever MA suits their fancy. They can be fun and keep you in shape. But don't kid yourself that playing patty-cake tag is preparation for self defense. Most instructors who tout that are lying to you. Even the Krav Maga-ists and MMA-ers. I once questioned a MMA gym owner and asked him about their sparring. Think "vigorous wrestling with tap-outs and no strikes." Which is what we did in my unit before MMA became all the rage. A step up from wrestling, but still lacking.

Before I recommend ANY martial art to a parent I ask them - "what is the goal of having your child involved?" If they say it's to improve their fitness, then wrestling could be a good choice....but then again, so would Tae Kwon Do, Judo, or almost any martial art. But if they say they want them to learn to defend/protect themselves then wrestling has no place in the discussion.

My son wrestled through high school, finishing second in state in consecutive years, but he was no match for his almost 50 year old dad due to the weight difference and my judo training. More importantly, just as the goal is to "stop the threat" when using a firearm (as opposed to killing them), the goal in a hand to hand encounter should be to do enough damage to allow you to safely get away from the situation....NOT to pummel the threat into submission or unconsciousness.

Fighting on the ground is the last thing one should want to do, as it limits mobility AND puts you in a very bad situation should a accomplice or friend of your opponent show up. Not to say that ground skills aren't important because the fight may end up there, but it shouldn't be because YOU take it there with wrestling.

I don't know what makes you think that Krav Maga involves "patty cake" tag, because there IS no sparring involved, just application of combatives for handling real-world type of encounters. Every class I've participated in required full protective gear (Headgear, mouth guard, cup, gloves and sometime even shin guards) because lessons are taught 'at speed', and contact is to be expected. For those desiring to learn effective street skills for self-defense (and everyone should know SOME) I can think of no better system.

 

[Protected One]

I've never met an aikido practitioner who could actually apply the art against a resisting, uncooperative opponent in any type of freestyle scenarios. And yes, that includes Seagals's instructors.

It has a few elements in the footwork I do like, but as a whole, I think it's severely lacking as a method of self-defense.

I have. A childhood friend that I trained with is now a 3rd Dan in Aikido (in addition to being a Sifu of Kung-Fu, and a certified Tai Chi instructor) and teaches in northern California and Africa.
He would (and has) handled opponents like you mention on numerous occasions.
The only problem I have with Aikido is that it focuses on dealing with an opponent while seeking to minimize the injury/pain inflicted. My goal is to MAXIMIZE it and get the encounter over quickly. I don't have the stamina that I did as a young man, when I didn't care how long the fight lasted.

 

[dmn57]

Andre Tippett...

Given Mr. Tippett's size, athleticism and rough upbringing, I imagine he'd be one tough dude even without decades of martial arts training.

 

[Mister X]

Given Mr. Tippett's size, athleticism and rough upbringing, I imagine he'd be one tough dude even without decades of martial arts training.

Absolutely and that's part of the equation some people don't seem to be factoring in. A Pee Wee Herman type could spend years training boxing, kickboxing, BJJ, MMA or whatever and Andre is still most likely going to drop him in the street. The system matters a great deal since some are truly inherently ineffective or unsuitable for the specific goal, but ultimately styles do not fight, individuals do.