who wants to help a new guy??? 9mm and .40 questions...a bunch of them!!!

gamble

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Hey guys I have been looking at the S&W web site and trying to get an idea of the different models. Is it possible to get the some opinion from you guys and (SIMPLE) pros and cons of a 9mm vs a .40 cal? Please don't explain all the technical stuff as I am pretty sure I don't understand it anyway ;) I am brand new and am trying to learn before my first buy my first pistol. I am looking for a home defense and target weapon. I know the bullets are different sizes but I am sure it is much more than that. I am 200lbs so some kick is ok but I still want to be accurate and not be exhausted after shooting!! That's why I was thinking to stay away from a .45! I have some friends with Glok's but I don't know they seem to be for different applications then what I am looking for????

Also what is the difference again (SIMPLE) in all the different .40 cal pistols...they seem to have a big spread in pricing. I see the Sig, M&P and so on....is it quality of the materials or a more "complex" gun with more options etc??


I really apprecite it and thanks in advance to whoever helps me out trying to figure this stuff out!




tks guys......

gamble
 
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Hi, and welcome. I'll try to address the caliber question. The 9 mm vs. .40 S & W question is a common one. Either will serve you well in target shooting or for defensive purposes. In a gun available in both calibers the 9 mm will recoil less and the ammo will be less expensive, but the .40 will not kick substantially more. At 200 lb, a .40 (or for that matter, a .45) will not knock you flat on your back :) .

The effective defensive .40 loads seem to be much more available than many of the 9 mm rounds that have been shown to be as good. This may be because a vast majority of law enforcement has gone to the .40.

As far as specific guns, my usual advice if possible is to go to a range that allows you to rent several different models. They should be happy to explain the features and you can decide which ones you like. Hope this is helpful.
 
First of all, welcome to the forum.
I agree with what Alan said. The .40 is not really all that much more ferocious in the recoil department. I do feel it is probably a more effective caliber assuming good shot placement, which is key. Most pistols by major manufacturers are offered in both 9mm and .40 S&W. The features are usually identical. The .40 was developed around 1990 and is really a shortened version of the 10mm round. The 10mm is a very powerful round but required a larger frame, usually the same size as a .45 ACP. The .40 could be built on a frame identical to the 9mm. This made it very popular, and today the .40 is probably the most popular law enforcement caliber, mostly in the Glock. That, to me, says a lot.
 
Welcome

First, welcome to the forum for all that is Smith and Wesson.
Secondly, I'm no expert, but do have some experience with guns.
Read and re-read all instruction manuals, information and firearm safety
brochures.You need to field strip and clean your pistol BEFORE you take
your first shot at the range.(Hint, buy cleaning supplies and GUN oil when you buy your pistol.)
A few words about the 9mm and the .40 calibers.
The 9mm is cheaper to shoot and ideal for those starting in the shooting
sports due to it's "softer" recoil as compared to the .40 and larger calibers.
The .40 cal has a "snappier",muzzle flip recoil,while the .45 ACP
has a more "push-back" type of recoil. The 9mm and .40 cal range ammo can be found at WalMart
fairly cheaply.The 9mm is about $10-12/50 rounds (full metal jacket) or
about $24-26 for 100 round packs.The .40 cal is about $3-6 per box more
than the 9mm.Self-defense ammo is $15-22 per box of 20 rounds with
Federal, Winchester PXD-1,Speer Gold Dot available in various weights.
Which ever caliber/pistol you decide upon, try different manufacturers
ammo and select the one(s) that work best in YOUR gun.
Most of all, always think safety first, then have fun in your new hobby.
 
Again, welcome.

The 9 is the better choice because the cheaper ammunition and lower recoil will allow you to become proficient faster. Shot placement is everything. Also, in the event that you are unfortunate enough to run into multiple assailants, faster recoil recovery will be what you really need.

The additional "stopping power" of the .40 is mostly hype. The best loads in both calibers do essentially the same thing in human tissue; bore a hole between 1/2" and 2/3" in diameter from front to (almost) back, ideally stopping under the skin instead of exiting. There is no "hydrostatic shock" at typical pistol bullet velocity, only the hole. The location of the hole is far more important than a couple of hundredths of an inch in the diameter.

Another consideration is weapon reliability. The 9 has a more "feed-friendly" shape and permits designers to build a smaller pistol while retaining bet-your-life reliability.

Hope this helps...
 
guys those replies were awesome!!!! Thank you! Any thoughts on the different models in the 9mm and the .40 that s&W is offereing??? in simple terms is like bells and whistles on the weapon or are the materials better qualty that make the pirces vary on same caliper but different model guns? Basically if I decide to buy the .40 or the 9mm Smith what makes one .40 a couple of hundred bucks more expensive?? Please don't be to technical ;) I might not understand!


PS - what is self or personal defense ammo? Stronger than shooting range stuff??



tks guys......



gamble
 
If your looking at pistols with the same features there should not be a ants rumps difference concerning 9mm and .40 in the M&P semi auto pistol family in pricing. Keep in mind a cash rich area or stupid consumers dictate retail pricing concerning just about everything. But understand a Pro Series M&P will cost a tad more. A Long will have a diff. price more than likely. And if it's PC pistol your butt is there's. :)

A 9mm is snappy, a 40 is snappy with a want to be thud. A .45 acp is a thud with a want to be snap. All require the same basic skills to operate.
 
PS - what is self or personal defense ammo? Stronger than shooting range stuff??

"Self defense" ammo is usually loaded hotter. In the 9mm it may be +P or +P+ rated, which in simple terms means it is loaded to higher pressure, giving more velocity. The .40 S&W is not rated +P by the manufacturers.
They will usually be of hollowpoint configuration, which is intended to expand or "mushroom" when it enters soft tissue, I.E. a human or animal body. This is to somewhat limit penetration so the bullet stays in the body and to do more damage. Obviously these bullets are more complicated to make, so they will be more expensive. These will usually have a bit more recoil and muzzle blast. A good idea is to get some full metal jacket (non-hollowpoint) loads of the same bullet weight as your self defense loads and use them for practice. Although you should shoot a good number of the hollowpoints in your gun to ensure it functions properly.
Please keep in mind there is no "magic bullet". No bullet will stop a threat 100% of the time, especially one fired from a handgun. My best advice is find a gun that fits you and practice, practice, practice. Stay safe.
 
PS - what is self or personal defense ammo? Stronger than shooting range stuff??

"Self defense" ammo is usually loaded hotter.

Absolute bull! Self defense ammo should be loaded with an effective hollowpoint bullet that will achieve sufficient penetration while expanding in tissue. Once upon a time, with relatively primitive bullet designs, the most effective rounds did require high velocities to work. This is no longer true.

Many of the widely used pistol cartridges were designed in the early 20th century, if not before. Pressure levels took the powders, materials and designs into account. 100 years later, we have better powder, materials, designs and understanding of material stress. As a result, some cartridges have had +P pressure levels established to allow a higher pressure, higher velocity load to be developed. In 9mm, the SAAMI (US) +P level is about what the Europeans have loaded the cartridge for 100+ years and any difference is recoil is barely noticable in many weapons. You'll have to decide if the additional power and expense is worth the money and if it degrades your accuracy. Power is fine, accuracy is fatal.

+P+ ammunition has no accepted pressure level and was originally developed to allow .357 Magnum level loads to be loaded in .38 Special cases for use in .357 Magnum pistols. It was a PR thing. Most all companies will not warrant their products for use with this ammunition.
 
Thanks again guys! I guess this is the best way.....why is one of these guns a little over $700.00 and the other a little over $500.00??? They are both .40 cal but is this simply a name thing?? The M&P over the SD? Or is one a better piece with better internal parts and better shhoting and longer life? Just trying to see if it's the bas model Chevy vs the loaded up version or its Cadillac....same maker bigger price tag!!!Thanks you guys are really helping out the "new guy"



http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57962_757752_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57752_757751_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
 
In simple terms, a guns price reflects ease of use and longevity. Basically, spend more and you get a gun that is easier to shoot well (ei. better trigger), has more features (ie night sights or rails), and is easier to maintain (simpler field stripping and dis-assembly).

Since it is a S&W site and your obviously looking at the S&W Sigma and M&P, it provides an excellent illustration of the old adage that "you get what you pay for". Both the Sigma and M&P have proven to be reliable in function, meaning they don't tend to jam and can be trusted to go Bang when you pull the trigger. However, the Sigma is a bit notorius for having aa heavy and gritty trigger that is difficult for a new shooter to use with good accuracy. In contrast the M&P has an excellent trigger that is easy to shoot well with and it also features a grip that can be modified for sizing to the shooter by replacing the insert.

To my eye, the SD series offers a superb balance between price and features. Reports I've seen indicate the trigger is equal to the M&P in terms of feel and it also ships with a tritium front sight (it glows in the dark).

The only question is it's reliability in terms of feed. I am inclined to hold off on purchasing any newly designed pistol because much too often they tend to have reliability issues that need sorting out. However, I haven't seen many complaints about the new SD so right now it looks as if S&W has produced a winner right out of the gate.

IMO the only area where the SD might be lacking is in the grip, it doesn't feature replaceable inserts to allow changine the size. However, if you have hands anywhere near average, it's a feature you won't use.

If you can find an SD available for rental, I would strongly suggest trying one out before purchasing it. Fact is the only guns I've purchased without a rental test drive have been my revolvers becaue they have been so unchanging in terms of fit and function for so many years.

As for your question in regards to ammunition. One key difference is the cost, premium Self Defense ammunition costs roughly 3 times as much as range ammunition. What you gain with that higher price is a higher degree of lethal wound potential. Range ammo will basically drill a nice clean hole through the body of someone who has been shot while a good premium SD round may not even leave the body, what the premium ammo will do is cause massive bleeding. When you're trying to stop someone intent an doing you harm, you want something that causes massive bleeding because the blood loss will cause a loss of consiousness. Note, some states, in particular New Jersey, prohibit owning any hollow point ammunition, so if you're a NJ resident simple range ammo is your only choice. In that case, get a 9mm and shoot the lightest bullet you can find, it may ricochet off internal organs and prove more effective than a heavier bullet. If you live in a more reasonable state, get the 40 caliber and choose a 165 or 180 grain "heavy" bullet, there is less potential for over penetration and they do have some degree of "knockdown" power. However, please remember these are handguns and "knockdown" power is mostly a movie myth. At best about all you can expect is perhaps 3/4 to 1 second of "'shock" when you hit someone in the body, after that they'll probably be shooting back until you hit them again. This is the reason why you'll see reports of Police shooting someone 12 or even 20 times, it's because that is what it took to get them to stop shooting back. Fact is a human being can be pretty darned tough and if you don't get lucky with a CNS hit, it can take lots of hits to stop them.

Now, about bullet types.

First up is "Ball" amunition. This is a common range ammunition that originally featured a rounded nose, hence ball, but today also may have a flat on the nose. Good for punching paper, decent for hunting on larger game such as deer, and notorious for going straight through human targets with little bleeding.

Next up are Wadcutters or Semi Wadcutters. The Wadcutter was originally devloped to punch nice clean holes in paper targets. It's a straight round chunck of lead flat on the front and may be either flat on the back or cupped. Those sharp corners of the front produce a very cleanly cut hole in a paper target. Not soon after they were introduced the Police discovered that those sharp corners also increased bleeding in someone shot with a Wadcutter. A bit later some enterprizing police discovered that mounting a hollow based wadcutter upside down was even more lethal and the hollow point was born. The Semi Wadcutter has a reduced diameter at the nose with some slight tapering on the nose. This impoves aerodynamics and improves the long range effectiveness, making it more suitable for hunting. However, since it retains some sharp edges on the nose it does produce more bleeding in the wound path than ball ammo. For a very long time the semi wadcutter defined the standard Police issue round because they did work somewhat well, IMO because in the 38 spl. they tended to tumble once they hit someone. However in a faster moving caliber they tend to act more like Ball ammunition and bore straight through.

Then there is the Hollowpoint, which today predominates Self Defense ammunition. As noted it all started with an upside down Wadcutter. However today's premium hollow points employ enhancements down to the microstructural level. One early problem with hollow points is they tended to fragment and produce very shallow wound channels. All those fragments made it a pain for ER docs but they weren't real good at stopping an assailant. Today you can find a large variety of hollow point ammuntion and they are NOT equal, you get what you pay for. The Winchester Silvertips are cheap, based on "old tech", and tend to fragment. The Winchester Ranger-T cost a lot more, are "new tech" and do NOT tend to fragment, which means they produce a deep, heavily bleeding, wound channel. Basically, Silvertips are fun for blowing milk bottle apart, Ranger-Ts are what you keep loaded in the House Gun. BTW, the Speer Gold Dots are equal in both cost and stopping power to the Ranger-T.

Bottomline, if hollow points are legal in your state, plan on spending 80 cents to 1 dollar per round for a good modern SD ammo, any less and it may fragment when you need penetration.
 
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I broke in during the days when "real cops" carried a .357 mag. and the lessor ones carried a .38. There were two manufacturers, Smith and Colt, with S & W by far in the majority. That said, having broken in with the magnum, the recoil from any automatic is pretty tame. My experience as an instructor leaders me to believe the problem most people have with recoil is a matter of mindset and training. With proper grip and grips and technique, almost anybody can handle almost any handgun, with the exception of some extremes. My wife weighed about 100 pounds soaking wet, but she could handle the full power magnums. Best investment might be a good, I repeat, good, shooting course.

Back in the day I had many handguns in all calibers. Today the only working handgun I own is a Smith & Wesson 4013 just the way it came from the factory. I opted for .40 deliberately: The .40 and .357 Sig seem to come closest to the performance I wanted, which was really my old .357. I went to an automatic not because I believe it is superior in any way, but because I know I can't afford to shoot as much as I did, therefore I'm not as confident in my shot placement as I was. Also, the price of compact revolvers today is just prohibitive and what I wanted was a Model 65 with a three inch barrel and they are just hard to come by. It's also getting toughter to find leather and even ammunition without paying a premium price.

I went back through some old notes and records when I moved. Interestingly, most of the homicides I worked involved .22s. Those guys were just as dead as any of the others. It was all about shot placement. I would not volunteer to carry a defensive firearm in .22, but we send people into harms way every day with .223 and that's really just a souped up .22. That said, stick with .38/9mm or larger. Consider buying used if you're buying from a good, knowledgable dealer. Don't buy online until you have a lot more experience.

That advice to go to a range and try several different weapons is gold. Also, try some different loads. Then sit down and draw up a chart for each gun you are considering and the pros and cons of both the weapon and the caliber. Rank them from one to five or one to ten. Before long you'll find youself shading your numbers in favor of one caliber and one gun. That should probably be your choice, unless you can really justify soemthing else to yourself. That it's not the most popular or the gun writers don't tote it as the best thing short of an atomic bomb should not be a concern, but don't go too much upstream. You're not a salmon.

As to the cost of the guns, there are some real pieces of c-----p out there. Stay away from them. Purchase your first handgun from one of the major manufacturers. They have enough choices to keep everybody confused. Every gun will have its drawbacks. I don't like the grips on automatics or the long trigger pull on the 3rd generation Smiths, but what am I carrying?

Also, John Browning gave some advice: A handgun usually works best in the caliber it was designed for. Do your homework. There are no shortcuts unless you are satisfied being a danger to yourself and everybody around you. When I was training, I explained to students that I feel free to shoot anyone who points a gun at me, even on the range. Learn muzzle discipline. Obey the rules. You want a simple explanation? Do the reading for yourself. I'm not willing to bet my life on what a bunch of faceless guys say online, but if you are, that's okay. Just include me as a beneficiary on your life insurance policy.

Remember, all gunnies have their opinions. Usually, we voice them pretty strongly, but then most of us have strong opinions because we've bet our lives on those guns and our ability to handle them. That tends to make a man dig in his heels. Best advice, for a first gun, I'd still recommend a good K-frame revolver loaded with hot .38s. Not much to go wrong with it and it'll still get you through the night. They hold their value and when you've mastered the basics, trade it. You say revolvers aren't sexy anymore? Well, just what are you planning to do with that thing anyway? No, don't answer that.

Wild Bill Hickok carried a Colt Navy in .36 caliber. Today, that load is about the same as a .380 and we all agree its a marginal round for defensive purposes. But I don't recall Ol' Bill complaining and he had other options too.

Oh, about the "magic bullet." I've been searching for it for more than 30 years. All I can say is that it better be the load I'm carrying when I need it. Power's fine, but accuracy is final. Like the man said, Gun control is a good trigger finger and hitting what you aim at.
 
thanks for taking the time guys!!!! SO....SO much help! I am going to look for a good shop around here to find someone to explain and teach me proper handling , maintanance and so forth. I just like to have some preperation and perhaps have an idea of the gun I am interested in so I dont walk in and just go....uuuhhhhhh.....what do you think?????

Like with anything we do whether hobby or professional I know everyone has a prference and a reason. Ultimatley I will decide for myself but talking to guys that have been handling weapons for a long time and are nice enought to take the time to share their knowledge is very cool to me and a damn good start!!!


thanks to everyone who has replied so far and please anyone else that has some idea's or opinions chime in!!!!



tks.....

gamble
 
Actually, I've been known to walk into a store where I'm not known and just ask, "What do you think," just to find out how much of a snow job they're willing to give me. It's kid of fun when they think they have a real rookie on the hook, then find out you actually know your stuff. Today, I admit I haven't kept up with all the knew models. I drop out during the third generation, but its still fun.
 
A note on revolvers. I started out with Semi autos and purchased my first revolver in order to improve my shooting with my carry choice, a Sig Sauer P239 with a DA/SA trigger. That DA first shot features a long 10 lbs. pull very similar to a revolver and de-cocking the Sig for each shot in DA practice was getting to be a bit of a pain. So, I purchased a used S&W model 67 with a very sweet DA trigger. I still have that model 67 and don't ever intend to sell it. Fact is that shooting a good DA revolver is the finest method you can find to refine your trigger stroke. Now I tend to shoot my Sig more accurately in double action than I do in single action.

Because one issue that extensive use of a DA trigger can cause is a tendancy to "slap" the trigger of a semi in single action in rapid fire. However, that's something that can be resolved with just a bit of practice while paying attention to what your doing.

In my case it's an indication that I need to spend less time with the wheelguns and spend more time with the semi's. The only problem is that I enjoy shooting the wheelguns more, no brass to pick up and too many years watching westerns as a kid.

Point is, wheelguns still have an important role in shooting and I don't think that will ever change. They are great training guns, superbly reliable when maintained occasionally, and an excellent House Gun even when ignored for 5 or 10 years. As for that comment about revolvers not being "sexy", IMO that's NOT true, that old model 67 is the prettiest gun I own, perfect lines with a perfect balance.
 
IMHO, I prefer revolvers for reasons already stated. But for comfortable target and practice shooting the 9mm is hands down the least expensive and most readily available centerfire handgun ammo out there. And for defence the 9mm with modern +P hollowpoints will do fine. All around a logical choice for an all-purpose handgun chambering.
 
Some ranges offer an NRA introductory course, which is very good. Finding a range that offers the course is variable, depending on where you live. A group of young ladies locally got a group deal on the introductory course and the Concealed Carry course.
Some local ranges have package deals including rental multiple gun shooting and cleaning. One wag said it was the only time the range guns got properly cleaned. At least one range, all I know it was somewhere in Georgia, included a discount and various package deals on guns and shooting. The young Navy officer I talked to was much impressed by his Mother's competence and confidence.
Geoff
Who knows a couple of ranges in NE Florida...
Florida Outdoor Shooting Range | American Tactical Training Arms Center | A.T.T.A.C.
 
JC and all the others thanks for the great info! I will be starting with a semi auto it's just a matter of which one...Leaning towards the .40 assuming when I actually shoot one again I like it!




tks guys....
 

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