StatesRightist
Member
I agree with you on the GAP, talk about an solution in search of an actual problem.
Why all the 40 caliber bashing?
- Thread starter Jeff1000
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I agree with you on the GAP, talk about an solution in search of an actual problem.
scooter123
Member
We are getting into areas that are leaning towards misinformation a fair bit.
First there is that bit about "wimpy" FBI agents not being able to handle the 10mm. Fact is that 10mm had two strikes against it and "wimpy" shooters wasn't really a factor.
First strike is that when loaded to full power it produces enough recoil to cause issues even for experienced shooters. When the Instructors have to slow down their rate of fire they will in time conclude that a particular caliber of loading may be too powerful. Keep in mind that at max power the 10mm can hit 800 ft.lbs. or more at the muzzle. So, in this respect it's actually quite similar to the 41 Magnum, another of Jeff Cooper's ideas that turned out to be too powerful for the "average" Police Officer. It wasn't too long after they adopted the 10mm that the "FBI Load" was implemented to reduce the energy level to a point that was shootable for the majority of the FBI's agents.
Then S&W looked at those new ballistics and noticed they could produce those same ballistics in a shorter casing. Which helped to solve the second strike with the original 10mm, the case length. One real problem with long cartridge cases in a semi auto is that it requires a larger grip frame. Add in the widespread adoption of double stack magazines and now you have a handgun with a grip that is large enough to cause even males with average sized hands to have to "sidesaddle" the grip a bit. Basically, going to a shorter case allowed the 40 S&W to transition into a double stack pistol while the 10mm was basically hamstrung in a single stack pistol because at that time a double stack 10mm would have had a grip that was just too large.
Finally, accuracy. IMO the 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP will produce accuracy results that are quite similar as long as the gun has been produced properly for the caliber. With any quality handgun the driving factor for accuracy isn't the gun or the caliber, it's the person doing the shooting.
Four years ago when I could still focus on handgun sights I was able to put 5 rounds into 1.5 inches at 50 feet with my 40 caliber Sig P229 in slow fire. About 4 weeks ago my DR started me on blood pressure meds and last Sunday I saw the results of getting my blood pressure under control. (Aug 4 it was 170/100, last Friday 120/70) First I found that my non dominate left eye was now able to bring the sights of my Ruger SR1911 into sharp focus. Second, I found that I was steadier than I've been for about 3 years or so. End result is that I ran 5 rounds from my 45ACP Ruger into a grouping that's a full on match for that result from the Sig, 1.5 inch at 50 feet.
Point is this, 40 caliber with a 3.9 inch barrel produced a 1.5 inch group at 50 feet on one of my better days of shooting offhand. The 45ACP from a 5 inch barrel produced the same result on another very good day shooting offhand. I'll also note that I strongly believe that getting my blood pressure under controlled provided a big improvement in my shooting in slow precision fire.
First there is that bit about "wimpy" FBI agents not being able to handle the 10mm. Fact is that 10mm had two strikes against it and "wimpy" shooters wasn't really a factor.
First strike is that when loaded to full power it produces enough recoil to cause issues even for experienced shooters. When the Instructors have to slow down their rate of fire they will in time conclude that a particular caliber of loading may be too powerful. Keep in mind that at max power the 10mm can hit 800 ft.lbs. or more at the muzzle. So, in this respect it's actually quite similar to the 41 Magnum, another of Jeff Cooper's ideas that turned out to be too powerful for the "average" Police Officer. It wasn't too long after they adopted the 10mm that the "FBI Load" was implemented to reduce the energy level to a point that was shootable for the majority of the FBI's agents.
Then S&W looked at those new ballistics and noticed they could produce those same ballistics in a shorter casing. Which helped to solve the second strike with the original 10mm, the case length. One real problem with long cartridge cases in a semi auto is that it requires a larger grip frame. Add in the widespread adoption of double stack magazines and now you have a handgun with a grip that is large enough to cause even males with average sized hands to have to "sidesaddle" the grip a bit. Basically, going to a shorter case allowed the 40 S&W to transition into a double stack pistol while the 10mm was basically hamstrung in a single stack pistol because at that time a double stack 10mm would have had a grip that was just too large.
Finally, accuracy. IMO the 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP will produce accuracy results that are quite similar as long as the gun has been produced properly for the caliber. With any quality handgun the driving factor for accuracy isn't the gun or the caliber, it's the person doing the shooting.
Four years ago when I could still focus on handgun sights I was able to put 5 rounds into 1.5 inches at 50 feet with my 40 caliber Sig P229 in slow fire. About 4 weeks ago my DR started me on blood pressure meds and last Sunday I saw the results of getting my blood pressure under control. (Aug 4 it was 170/100, last Friday 120/70) First I found that my non dominate left eye was now able to bring the sights of my Ruger SR1911 into sharp focus. Second, I found that I was steadier than I've been for about 3 years or so. End result is that I ran 5 rounds from my 45ACP Ruger into a grouping that's a full on match for that result from the Sig, 1.5 inch at 50 feet.
Point is this, 40 caliber with a 3.9 inch barrel produced a 1.5 inch group at 50 feet on one of my better days of shooting offhand. The 45ACP from a 5 inch barrel produced the same result on another very good day shooting offhand. I'll also note that I strongly believe that getting my blood pressure under controlled provided a big improvement in my shooting in slow precision fire.
Fishslayer
US Veteran, Absent Comrade
I prefer "10mm Kurz."
And yes, 180gr @1050fps will leave a mark not easily buffed out.
StatesRightist
Member
Jeff, you might find this link interesting:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf
The author has given permission for it to be redistributed.
You will note the testers had no issues with the round and judged it superior, it was when it got to the rank and file that recoil became an issue, you draw your own conclusions. It also address accuracy etc as well.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf
The author has given permission for it to be redistributed.
You will note the testers had no issues with the round and judged it superior, it was when it got to the rank and file that recoil became an issue, you draw your own conclusions. It also address accuracy etc as well.
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Fat Old Guy
Member
It says, "Minimum 12 inches & 18 inches is better .. . " and later the comment made that over penetration is not an issue because it doesn't happen.
Maybe I'm missing something but 18 inches in a human seems like over penetration is very likely. I'm pretty big, I have a 52 inch chest and front to back I measure 13 inches. Penetrate me 18 inches and the bullet will stop in mid-air about six inches behind my back.
StatesRightist
Member
They drew that conclusion based on several things.
One side shots through the arm, coming from the right arm in it's a long way to the heart.
The shooter being above or below the perp, adding inches of penetration needed. There's a famous shooting involving a TX trooper being above a big guy and scoring multiple center mass hits with a .357, the problem was the angle stopped the trooper's rounds short of vitals. The perp killed the trooper with a .22 after he had been shot.
Finally and primarily, the larger percentage of officer rounds miss their target, so that makes over-penetration a moot point.
Maybe I can help add to the wealth of information already stated.
The caliber debate is an old one. And it's getting old and I fear will never go way.
To debate caliber is a waste of time. It makes no sense due to a lack of preset parameters such as the size of the gun, sensitivity to recoil, hand size, physical condition, capacity preference etc.....
I have owned FULL sized guns in 9MM, 357Sig, 40SW, and 45 ACP. I shot all of them equally well. And also having owned all of the above calibers in COMPACT guns, my performance dropped in the 45ACP, 40SW and 357Sig due to recoil. Follow up shots took too long to get back on target.
Then I looked in my gunsafe. Man! Do I really need all these different calibers? NO! I got rid of the 40SW and 357Sig guns. Why? I prefer the 45 in full size guns and the 9MM in compact guns. Again, why?
I can put several solid hits on target faster. And I can do so with either caliber faster than most people can with a 40SW DEPENDING on the guns being used. If you think about it, how many ranges let you rapid fire? Not many these days.
Having a friend that owns an indoor range, I can. So I know exactly what my strengths and weaknesses are.
If you are limited to one round per second and are not able to draw from the holster, then you don't truly know what your capabilities are. And you probably chose the wrong caliber. ANYBODY can shoot one round at a time and hit effectively. And if you think it's only going to take one round to solve your problem, your wrong.
Caliber selection is a small part of the concealed carry strategy. Make a smart decision based on YOUR capabilities. Don't make it based on what cops, the military, or what your best friend says. SHOW them that you can hit your target effectively and REPEATEDLY while they're recovering form the recoil trying to get a sight picture.
More important than caliber is attitude and mindset, quality training, much practice, and then more practice.
As I've said several times before,
"The Caliber of The Man Counts More Than The Caliber of His Gun"!!
The caliber debate is an old one. And it's getting old and I fear will never go way.
To debate caliber is a waste of time. It makes no sense due to a lack of preset parameters such as the size of the gun, sensitivity to recoil, hand size, physical condition, capacity preference etc.....
I have owned FULL sized guns in 9MM, 357Sig, 40SW, and 45 ACP. I shot all of them equally well. And also having owned all of the above calibers in COMPACT guns, my performance dropped in the 45ACP, 40SW and 357Sig due to recoil. Follow up shots took too long to get back on target.
Then I looked in my gunsafe. Man! Do I really need all these different calibers? NO! I got rid of the 40SW and 357Sig guns. Why? I prefer the 45 in full size guns and the 9MM in compact guns. Again, why?
I can put several solid hits on target faster. And I can do so with either caliber faster than most people can with a 40SW DEPENDING on the guns being used. If you think about it, how many ranges let you rapid fire? Not many these days.
Having a friend that owns an indoor range, I can. So I know exactly what my strengths and weaknesses are.
If you are limited to one round per second and are not able to draw from the holster, then you don't truly know what your capabilities are. And you probably chose the wrong caliber. ANYBODY can shoot one round at a time and hit effectively. And if you think it's only going to take one round to solve your problem, your wrong.
Caliber selection is a small part of the concealed carry strategy. Make a smart decision based on YOUR capabilities. Don't make it based on what cops, the military, or what your best friend says. SHOW them that you can hit your target effectively and REPEATEDLY while they're recovering form the recoil trying to get a sight picture.
More important than caliber is attitude and mindset, quality training, much practice, and then more practice.
As I've said several times before,
"The Caliber of The Man Counts More Than The Caliber of His Gun"!!
I bought and shot a 40 for the first time last April. I thought, wow this is snappy but then my PF9 9mm was snappy just as well so if I got used to the PF9 I'll get used to the 40.
And I did. I love it.
Last Monday I shot my Sigma 9mm and my Sig P250c 40sw at the range. I shot a box of Fed Champs in each caliper. It was a good day because I shot the 40 better than the 9.
EDIT: I'd better get the details in. I did 10 round sessions at least a second apart (as to the range rules, no DTs nor Rfs) and at 25 feet. I put the stickers on after each 10 rounders so I can see my patterns and adjust to them.
And I did. I love it.
Last Monday I shot my Sigma 9mm and my Sig P250c 40sw at the range. I shot a box of Fed Champs in each caliper. It was a good day because I shot the 40 better than the 9.
EDIT: I'd better get the details in. I did 10 round sessions at least a second apart (as to the range rules, no DTs nor Rfs) and at 25 feet. I put the stickers on after each 10 rounders so I can see my patterns and adjust to them.
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StatesRightist
Member
I agree Kanew, as I said above, with a good shooter, any of the service calibers will certainly do everything a CCW could ask or need them to do.
Yup. I have FINALLY convinced my dad to buy 9MM semi auto after years of trying. He remembers the horror stories about early 9MM ammo.
Since he gave me is Smith M19, (which I ain't giving back
) all he has is a Blackhawk 44 mag and a SP 101 357. He's ok with the Sp 101 but wants more capacity. He REALLY wants the Browning HP that he carried in Vietnam but he "settled" on an M&P 9.
Let him shoot mine and he said "that ain't bad!"........
Then I showed him modern 9MM ammo specs such as Win Ranger 127 +P+ and Corbon DPX. He was impresed. All this for dear ole dad with over 60 years of firearms experience.
I haven't heard a lot of .40S&W bashing, but I have heard several people say that they don't really care for the .40, for reasons unknown to me.
I am not the type to just go on what everybody says, so I do my own research, and experimenting.
I started out with the .45ACP in a S&W 645, nearly 30 years ago, and like many, thought it was the only semi-auto handgun caliber worthy for self defense.
In the last few years I have been trying out other calibers, and "plastic guns", and to my surprise, I have found that I like a smaller caliber, and a polymer striker fired pistol.
I started out with Glocks in 9mm, and a Sig P226 in 9mm. I found I liked the Glock "plastic gun", and the 9mm was great for cheap practice ammo, and actually realized there was some pretty good SD in 9mm ammo also.
After more research, I decided to try out the .357Sig for a SD round. I found a great deal on a M&PC in .357, and the rest is history.
My M&PC .357Sig came with a .40S&W barrel, and I also purchased a 9mm barrel for it.
After researching the three calibers some more, and shooting all three in my M&PC, I have come to the conclusion that my favorite caliber option for SD is the .357Sig, with the .40S&W being a viable back up caliber if .357Sig becomes too difficult to find, and the 9mm is great fun, and inexpensive, for target shooting.
I believe that all three calibers are effective for Self Defense with the proper ammo, but my first choice is the .357Sig, 2nd the .40S&W, and then 9mm.
I just ended up with a Full Size M&P40 in a trade, and I will also purchase the 9mm, and .357Sig barrels for it.
This is my own personal choice and preference, I don't expect everyone to agree.
Good luck on your search for your favorite!
I am not the type to just go on what everybody says, so I do my own research, and experimenting.
I started out with the .45ACP in a S&W 645, nearly 30 years ago, and like many, thought it was the only semi-auto handgun caliber worthy for self defense.
In the last few years I have been trying out other calibers, and "plastic guns", and to my surprise, I have found that I like a smaller caliber, and a polymer striker fired pistol.
I started out with Glocks in 9mm, and a Sig P226 in 9mm. I found I liked the Glock "plastic gun", and the 9mm was great for cheap practice ammo, and actually realized there was some pretty good SD in 9mm ammo also.
After more research, I decided to try out the .357Sig for a SD round. I found a great deal on a M&PC in .357, and the rest is history.
My M&PC .357Sig came with a .40S&W barrel, and I also purchased a 9mm barrel for it.
After researching the three calibers some more, and shooting all three in my M&PC, I have come to the conclusion that my favorite caliber option for SD is the .357Sig, with the .40S&W being a viable back up caliber if .357Sig becomes too difficult to find, and the 9mm is great fun, and inexpensive, for target shooting.
I believe that all three calibers are effective for Self Defense with the proper ammo, but my first choice is the .357Sig, 2nd the .40S&W, and then 9mm.
I just ended up with a Full Size M&P40 in a trade, and I will also purchase the 9mm, and .357Sig barrels for it.
This is my own personal choice and preference, I don't expect everyone to agree.
Good luck on your search for your favorite!
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I had a Storm Lake 357Sig barrel for my M&P compact and I LOVED it! Talk about accurate!!
As I stated above, got rid of it because I had TOO many calibers. And I couldn't afford to shoot them all.
As I stated above, got rid of it because I had TOO many calibers. And I couldn't afford to shoot them all.
Agreed. I would not want to face a man who was determined, and knew what he was doing with any service caliber gun.
Unless I had a bazooka.
Hal_Jordan
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I don't make a point of bashing the .40, but I've sold all of mine and don't plan on going back to it.
I'm just not sure what exactly it can do that a modern 9mm can't. So I'm back to 9mm because it is more affordable to practice with, and in model to model comparisons it holds more rounds.
I'm just not sure what exactly it can do that a modern 9mm can't. So I'm back to 9mm because it is more affordable to practice with, and in model to model comparisons it holds more rounds.
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I'm not sure of the background of some of those who wrote on the reasons for the 10mm/.40 S&W issues. However, since my employer adopted the round shortly after the FBI and the Virginia State Police and kept it for around 15 years, perhaps some additional information would be welcome.
The recoil of the 10mm full power round was not really a major issue to us. We had 115 lb officerettes who handled it just fine. Could they have had a faster rate of fire with a less muscular round? Probably. Could they have been more accurate? Maybe. One major issue was that the reach to the trigger on the 1000 series S&W autos was the same as an N frame revolver.
One of the primary reasons the FBI gave for adoption of the 10mm was pure BS. That being that progress in ammunition development would concentrate on the new 10mm projectiles. I expect that issues in barrier penetration and desired expansion had more to do with the reduction in velocity than recoil, but that's opinion.
Once the lower velocity rounds were found acceptable, other possibilities blossomed. It was now possible to get the same ballistics in a package that could work in a 9mm framed weapon, which better fit the hand of a larger cross section of people. It would be much easier for folks of smaller stature to use the new pistols.
However, converting 9mm pistols to .40 turned out to be more complicated than expected. Early versions by all makers generally had lousy accuracy due to the barrel unlocking from the slide too early. That problem was solved by changing the dwell time and isn't much of an issue now.
I'll close with the comment that NONE of the preceding posters have noted the vicious, bitter internal fighting between 9mm & .45 fans in the FBI. Adoption of a new caliber was THE ANSWER and dissent was heresy. Never underestimate the power of politics in decisions.
Short form: if you put your bullets in a vital area, it doesn't matter how big or fast they are. If you don't put your bullets in a vital area, it doesn't matter how big or fast they are.
The recoil of the 10mm full power round was not really a major issue to us. We had 115 lb officerettes who handled it just fine. Could they have had a faster rate of fire with a less muscular round? Probably. Could they have been more accurate? Maybe. One major issue was that the reach to the trigger on the 1000 series S&W autos was the same as an N frame revolver.
One of the primary reasons the FBI gave for adoption of the 10mm was pure BS. That being that progress in ammunition development would concentrate on the new 10mm projectiles. I expect that issues in barrier penetration and desired expansion had more to do with the reduction in velocity than recoil, but that's opinion.
Once the lower velocity rounds were found acceptable, other possibilities blossomed. It was now possible to get the same ballistics in a package that could work in a 9mm framed weapon, which better fit the hand of a larger cross section of people. It would be much easier for folks of smaller stature to use the new pistols.
However, converting 9mm pistols to .40 turned out to be more complicated than expected. Early versions by all makers generally had lousy accuracy due to the barrel unlocking from the slide too early. That problem was solved by changing the dwell time and isn't much of an issue now.
I'll close with the comment that NONE of the preceding posters have noted the vicious, bitter internal fighting between 9mm & .45 fans in the FBI. Adoption of a new caliber was THE ANSWER and dissent was heresy. Never underestimate the power of politics in decisions.
Short form: if you put your bullets in a vital area, it doesn't matter how big or fast they are. If you don't put your bullets in a vital area, it doesn't matter how big or fast they are.
I'm so glad I posted. I went from skeptical about the .40S&W to 100% sure which caliber I want to concentrate on; the .40S&W of course. I've taken to heart the greater importance of putting the bullets where you want them so I want to become an absolute ace marksman with the .40S&W.
This post from brucev really resonated:
"Why all the .40 S&W bashing? Perhaps it's because it wasn't developed by the U.S. Army, John Browning, Herr Luger, one of the assorted Russians, Elmer, Askins, Skeeter, etc. Perhaps it's because S&W looked at what the FBI didn't like about the 10mm, thought hard about what was good about the 9mm and then did something called "product development" with the happy result that policemen and citizens of all walks of life now have a wonderful round that pushes 180 gr. JHP's out the barrel of nice mid-sized semi-autos that can run all the way from duty size right down to sub-compact size. What's not to like? Oh... I know... it's not big enough... or fast enough... or new enough. Oh well. You can't please everybody. From the field most reports are that those who get hit by it would rather have not have gotten in the way of where that .40 caliber slug was going! Cool."
Anyway, I learned something from every post and I'm grateful for all the responses. You guys make me proud to be an American, and I'm comforted to know that great Americans like yourselves are still around in this upside-down country we currently find ourselves in.
Thanks again for the awesome education and the comraderie. You guys are the best.
This post from brucev really resonated:
"Why all the .40 S&W bashing? Perhaps it's because it wasn't developed by the U.S. Army, John Browning, Herr Luger, one of the assorted Russians, Elmer, Askins, Skeeter, etc. Perhaps it's because S&W looked at what the FBI didn't like about the 10mm, thought hard about what was good about the 9mm and then did something called "product development" with the happy result that policemen and citizens of all walks of life now have a wonderful round that pushes 180 gr. JHP's out the barrel of nice mid-sized semi-autos that can run all the way from duty size right down to sub-compact size. What's not to like? Oh... I know... it's not big enough... or fast enough... or new enough. Oh well. You can't please everybody. From the field most reports are that those who get hit by it would rather have not have gotten in the way of where that .40 caliber slug was going! Cool."
Anyway, I learned something from every post and I'm grateful for all the responses. You guys make me proud to be an American, and I'm comforted to know that great Americans like yourselves are still around in this upside-down country we currently find ourselves in.
Thanks again for the awesome education and the comraderie. You guys are the best.
A very small matter, unless you think about the money, but I remembered that and always thought it comical that the usual modern government approach to everything (stall, appease, compromise, etc. - or any combination thereof), which almost invariably ends in failure, made no one particularly happy, and ultimately went nowhere, at least as far as the 10mm goes. I have always wondered how much money the FBI wasted with all their "testing" and eventual purchases. My comment below meant to address that, obliquely.
The FBI already had weapons fully capable of the kind of penetration they desired, viz. their .357 Magnum revolvers, but I gather they routinely did not allow the agents to use .357 ammunition.
Mr. Moore, I will take my brownie now, with chocolate icing, if possible.
Chuck Jones
Member
I don't know if it's be mentioned already but there is one vitally important area in which 9mm is superior to all other handgun rounds.
Cost
You can shoot between 50% and 100% more 9mm for the same money you'd pay for .40S&W, .38 Special, .380 or .45 ACP.
This advantage of 9mm is vital because the single most important factor in shooting is practice.
Period.
So if it were me and I was advising a first time buyer I'd say 9mm all the way, the gun is secondary. S&W, Sig, Glock or Ruger, I'd look for whatever fit your hand better, and stick between the Glock 19 and 17 in overall size.
Then go shoot the **** out of it.
/c
Cost
You can shoot between 50% and 100% more 9mm for the same money you'd pay for .40S&W, .38 Special, .380 or .45 ACP.
This advantage of 9mm is vital because the single most important factor in shooting is practice.
Period.
So if it were me and I was advising a first time buyer I'd say 9mm all the way, the gun is secondary. S&W, Sig, Glock or Ruger, I'd look for whatever fit your hand better, and stick between the Glock 19 and 17 in overall size.
Then go shoot the **** out of it.
/c
Okay, this raises another question I have. When I was a kid I used to shoot BB guns and .22s and I was always a good shot, better than anyone I ever shot with. I also seemed to have a knack for estimating how high to aim to compensate for gravity. I remember knocking a small bird off a power line from really far away with a BB gun, maybe 150 yards or so. I had to aim really high above the bird. I suppose it was a lucky shot, but I accomplished what I tried to do.
Since those experiences shooting as a kid I have a hard time understanding why so much practice is necessary to be proficient with a gun. I mean it would seem to me that once you figure out how the handgun behaves and the amount that the bullet drops at various distances you should be pretty much all set, maybe just shoot every so often to refresh your memory and get the feel back.
My question is I don't see why you would have to shoot boxes and boxes of rounds or "shoot the hell out of it" as you say. I mean once you learn how to drive a car it's nothing you really have to practice over and over, or drive the hell out of the car. A qualification I would add is that if you're competitive marksman working with razor thin margins I can certainly understand the need for lots of practice, but I don't know how this would apply to someone interested in self-defense. Thanks.
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