Why do you need a safety?

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So in a moment of high stress you might fumble on the safety. Or you might shoot yourself in the foot. Both options have pros and cons. Pick whichever you're comfortable with. But 99.999% of us will never be attacked to the point that using a firearm is even legally viable. So unless somebody uses a knife or a gun is being used against them, using that gun is gonna get you arrested.

So I'm not gonna worry too much about sudden attacks by knife wielding assailants, and I'm surely not gonna pay some instructor to prepare me for that extremely unlikely scenario.

A lot of folks only think in terms of gunfights as being the primary reason why they would use their weapon, but such events are extremely rare amongst possible civilian defense scenarios. Close-quarter scenarios where lethal force would be justified is by no means limited to knife attacks. In addition to impact weapons, unarmed assaults often rise to that level.

I'll be traveling to Atlanta later this week and despite my size and background, if two or three large, male BLM protestors jumped me, it is very probable that I would access and utilize my snub at some point to resolve that situation. I don't find that scenario at all implausible since every large city I go to seems to currently be overrun with groups of protestors of one type or another and a lot of them are out looking for trouble. And many times with those types of people, someone looking formidable isn't always a deterrent, but often an irresistible target.
 
The Gadget

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4t69VcNx-58[/ame]

Those of you who prefer a safety, would you consider The Gadget to be a safety?
 
A lot of folks only think in terms of gunfights as being the primary reason why they would use their weapon, but such events are extremely rare amongst possible civilian defense scenarios. Close-quarter scenarios where lethal force would be justified is by no means limited to knife attacks. In addition to impact weapons, unarmed assaults often rise to that level.

I'll be traveling to Atlanta later this week and despite my size and background, if two or three large, male BLM protestors jumped me, it is very probable that I would access and utilize my snub at some point to resolve that situation. I don't find that scenario at all implausible since every large city I go to seems to currently be overrun with groups of protestors of one type or another and a lot of them are out looking for trouble. And many times with those types of people, someone looking formidable isn't always a deterrent, but often an irresistible target.

Paranoid much? I tend to stay away from violent protests. And if I was forced to go through one, I would be on super high alert, so I would be ready to disengage a safety.

I don't make decisons based on being jumped by BLM protesters. And as somebody who worked in a ghetto, it is my expereince that they will scatter like the roaches they are when a gun is even pulled.
 
Paranoid much? I tend to stay away from violent protests. And if I was forced to go through one, I would be on super high alert, so I would be ready to disengage a safety.

I don't make decisons based on being jumped by BLM protesters. And as somebody who worked in a ghetto, it is my expereince that they will scatter like the roaches they are when a gun is even pulled.

Why are you so threatened by someone having a different opinion than yours?
 
It's simple human nature.

There are those who simply cannot fathom any way other than their way. When someone has a different opinion, the response to that opinion is incredulity, followed by anger if the opinion isn't changed.

This is especially true when it comes to guns and safety. If a person thinks they are being safe (whether they are or not) they become offended/embarrassed if another person points out some safety infraction. Suggest that someone might need some training and the initial response is, "How dare you suggest that I don't know what I'm doing!" Even though no one actually said that, it's how people respond.

This thread is a perfect example. The OP asked why individuals wanted a safety on their gun. This in no way implies that safeties are good or bad. It's simple research into why people do what they do. However, once the question is asked, rather than take it at face value, most assume there is some hidden slight at the fact they do or don't have a thumb safety. It just happens, we read into things.

Add to that the "keyboard filter" and people are much more apt to say things they wouldn't in person. The internet allows people to be blunt because they don't have to deal with the recipient in person. They can make claims of prowess because they don't feel they have to back it up. If they were doing this face to face, what they know or skills they have would be readily apparent. So, the keyboard gives most extra courage to be more forceful in their opinion.

Welcome to the internet.

...

This is a pretty good post. To build upon it...

What I see fairly frequently on this particular forum that is somewhat unique to it, at least in the degree that it's present, is the desire for validation over debate and often an extreme overreaction if receiving the latter instead of the former. Debate is extremely productive for learning by putting forth an idea or opinion and then defending it by articulating why you believe it to be correct.

Acknowledging that there may be more than one correct answer to the same question as well as being open minded enough and willing to admit you are wrong or could be. While civil debate can be helpful for hashing out the relative merits of differing opinions, arguing and insults are not.

In this particular thread, differing ideas have been met with a disproportionate amount of resistance and certain amount of hostility because one side feels their perspective is being completively dismissed as if it has absolutely no merit. I think that is sometimes simply a failure to communicate effectively, defensiveness as well as the reasons Rastoff outlined. I know I've reacted poorly a number of times, so I'm not claiming innocence by any means.

If I said...

A. I believe a gun with a manual safety is safer than one without one and it can prevent unintentional discharges in some cases.

B. I believe a heavier trigger is safer than one significantly lighter and it can help prevent unintentional discharges in certain instances.

C. I believe a manual safety can be an impediment in certain instances. Not all the time, just potentially in some incidents.

None of those opinions are absolutes, but that seems to be how they are often interpreted and the debate subsequently turns into an argument. There is merit in the concept that falsely perceiving a hidden slight or reading too much into a comment as an explanation for the all too common hostile responses. It's much like the pro-abortion activist becoming enraged at the pro-life advocate because instead of hearing and seeing someone who just wants to save the lives of unborn babies, they perceive someone out to oppress woman.

As with just about everything, there are pros and cons with a manual safety. You weigh the advantages and disadvantages while also comparing the trade-offs you have to make and come to the conclusion that you feel is best for you. There is no absolute correct answer since it all truly boils down to being just an opinion and we should be able debate and discuss our differing opinions with civility and respect. Or at the very least make a sincere attempt to do so.

My apologies for the lecture, my Step-Father was a psychologist.

Armchair psychology class dismissed.
 
Why are you so threatened by someone having a different opinion than yours?

I'm not threatened. It's a spirited debate on a public gun forum. But you're the one trying to pass yourself as an expert with your reference to yourself as an instructor. Carry a Glock if you want. Free country. But worrying about being attacked by BLM protesters? Far off the reservation. I'm just a beat cop who walked through a really bad neighborhood to get to he train to get home. And this is after some really high profile anti-police sentiment going through the city. A white guy walking through the projects to get to the train. Nobody ever jumped me. I just don't think about it much. And I'm sure not gonna change my philosophy based on that extremely unlikely event. And God forbid it does happen, I feel confident that the safety won't be an impediment.
 
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Wow, what a thread.

At the risk of becoming the monkey-in-the-middle, I'll post my considered opinion.

In 33 years of law enforcement, I've carried a Model 15, an M9, a Sig P220, a Model 36, a pre-war non-registered .357 magnum, and a Glock 27. I've also used a Remington 870, an H&K MP5/10mm, and a GAU 5/A.

I retired a few months ago, and now I carry whatever I want. (I do have a part-time gig as a firearm instructor for a large defense contractor)

Its usually one of these:



Sometimes this Hi-Power:



I give zero thought to "muscle memory". Muscles don't have memory. Your brain does.

If you keep your brain engaged during stressful times, you will remember to take off your safety.

I carry the .32, .45, and 9mm with the safety on. Obviously the DS doesn't have one.

I haven't had EQC training. I'm not really sure what it is. I have been in a fair number of actual fights, and I don't worry about forgetting to take my safety off, even the little bitty one on the Pocket Hammerless.

I know an 85 year old doctor who also carries a .32 Pocket Hammerless. He doesn't like the little safety, so he carries it with the safety off, relying on the grip safety and a good holster to prevent an accidental discharge. He's been doing it that way for about 40 years. So far, so good.

So, to answer the OP - I use the safety because it is there, and I am not worried in the slightest about not taking it off.

For what its worth, when I carried the M9 I didn't use the safety, because that long DA pull was plenty of insurance against an accident.

Honestly, I think some of you guy overthink this stuff.
 
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Those of you who prefer a safety, would you consider The Gadget to be a safety?
No, it's exactly what they call it, a gadget. It's an answer to a problem that doesn't exist.

I don't see this total separation of military and police officers, versus the public, as you seem to.
I would agree with you. However, I think that when anyone mentions the military or police in threads like this, they are specifically talking about the "on duty" aspect rather than the down time.
 
When I carried S&W, I always carried safety off using the safety as a decocker only. I prefer the 1911 and Browing HP for semi autos so safety/no safety is a moot argument. I carried the HK USP on duty for years. I used the SA/DA variant 2 carried hammer down with the 1911 type safety on. As a left handed shooter I felt the left hand only safety would give me an extra second or two to bring my S&W model 37 onto action in the event I was disarmed. The USP is a fat handgun, so my Kimber CDP concealed and carried better and the safety was in the same place. So yes, I use a safety on SA only weapons designed with one.
 
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If you feel you're entering a possible volitile situation take the safety off and once you feel safe put it on.
Like most people say, the best safety is between your ears and keep your booger hook off the bang switch.
 
During these years there WERE occasions when C-3 carry saved either myself, or someone in close proximity to me from being placed in unexpected jeopardy from the pistol I was carrying. (Like the time I was tripped, and my pistol was pulled out of its holster as I fell forward. Unexpected events like these can and DO happen!)

So, while I do have to give you some props for actually making it out the door with your gun, I really do think a quality holster would have served you better than an unloaded gun.

Second and in all seriousness I categorically deny your standing to tell me about what it's like to be in a fight because you've never been there.

The very first gun fight I ever was involved in actually happened in the kitchen of a house I was renting with 2 other guys. One of my roomies had a crazy girlfriend and she started putting rounds through the wall. One went through the living room wall right over my head. I ran out the front door went to the neighbor's and called the cops. Zero training and I'm positive I was scared to death and had no way of knowing it was coming.

Everyone has this idea in their head of what your gun fight is going to look like and it's never that. How many times do you think Adam Johnson trained for the "Take a one handed, 100 yard shot while holding two horses" scenario? How do you think carrying in condition three would have worked out for him?

Yes this was an outlier a one in a million shot but what about the guy who is walking down the hall in his apartment and opens the door at the end of the hall and BAM there's 2 tweakers on the landing? How's that eagle eyed Situational Awareness working out for you now?

Whether you acknowledge it or not there are going to be times when you have to get your gun into action one handed. Carrying groceries, carrying your kids, walking dogs. I've gone through interviews in all those conditions and was lucky enough to fail the interview every time (so far)

There are going to be times when you turn a blind corner and there's a tweaker there or a bear (true story bro) and there was no possible way you could have known it was coming.

I have a friend who woke up one night with her would be rapist on top of her. Granted she needed lessons in home security more than gun fighting ( both you and she could use a class in Lock Your Damn Door 101. Although I'm fairly certain she learned her lesson) but she did manage to kick dude's butt and chase him off.

An ambush is the worst possible scenario. If I' m prepared for that then I'm more than ready for the idiot who starts his attack run from 30 feet away.

Final thought, I was a "dirt (which a capital S) magnet" for years. When I stopped treating the world in general as "less than" me I stopped being a "dirt magnet"
 
No, it's exactly what they call it, a gadget. It's an answer to a problem that doesn't exist.

They don't call it a gadget, they call it a striker control device and it addresses a very specific problem that's been brought up in this thread.

There have been a couple of mentions of liking the idea of being able to put your thumb over the hammer of your gun while reholstering. That's specifically what this is for even if it's not a "safety".
 
Jeez!!! Honestly I think everyone is full of it. If you can't depend on yourself to swipe the safety, you shouldn't kid yourself, into thinking you can keep your finger off the trigger, and vice versa. That is just simple common sense, and if you can't see the drawbacks and merits of both sides and still want to argue about it, you're closed minded. If you are a safety guy, and haven't ever forgotten, to swipe it, or a non safety guy, and caught yourself with your finger where it doesn't belong...either stop lying to yourself, or you don't go shooting enough. Neither is the 100% solution.

Bottom line, the folks who like safeties, think they are safer, and feel less chance they can make a mistake and have a negligent discharge, and train and don't worry as much about forgetting the safety.

Folks who don't like safeties, worry they'll forget to swipe it in the heat of battle, and feel very confident through training they won't touch the trigger by mistake. Seems training for what you do, is the common denominator.

Once you have this info, you should make the decision for yourself. Proceed with extreme caution while listening to anyone who knows nothing about you, but feels they know what's best for you.
 
Well said. I've seen beginners and pros that have had negligent discharges. No one is immune and if they think they are they're fools.

A late friend who was a shooting instructor once told me:

There are two kinds of people who have negligent discharges.

Those who have.

And those who will.


I've taken that to heart ever since. It's not just the unskilled or those unfamiliar with guns, but often it is also those who are so familiar and experienced that their motions are done automatically, without really thinking about it. That's when mistakes happen.
 
The New York trigger doesn't fix anything. Your startle response will still cause you to have a negligent discharge unless a trigger is so heavy you can't pull it, or your finger isn't on the trigger when it doesn't belong there.

Looking over the results of this experiment, I think it likely does... Force Science News #3: Can You Really Prevent Unintentional Discharges?.

Not specifically an NY trigger, but the same pull weight. And while a heavier trigger didn't prevent every single unintentional discharge, it did have an substantial impact. And I don't believe some type of startle response is responsible for all or even most unintentional discharges.

This study was referenced in Massad Ayoob's sticky at the top of this forum. http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...facts-about-light-trigger-pull-liability.html

I can only imagine that in a life and death defense situation, the results would be even more pronounced. In the scenarios covered, a manual safety would be of no use since it would/should already be disengaged.
 
I have children and a lot of non-gun folks around. The safety keeps them from firing off a round until they figure out its on safety then they have to figure where the safety is. It takes me an extra second to deploy, but I need it right now.
 
So, while I do have to give you some props for actually making it out the door with your gun, I really do think a quality holster would have served you better than an unloaded gun.

:rolleyes: You know, one of the curious things I've noticed about you is that you don't hesitate to venture opinions on topics and events about which you know next-to-nothing — Nothing!

You, also, are quick to characterize someone by a single event in his life. For instance you repeatedly attempt to characterize me by the time when I, rather humorously, forgot to holster my pistol before I left the house. Humor was the whole point of that story; but, as usual, you focused on your little ad hominem attack and missed, and continue to miss, the storyline, altogether!

So let me ask you: You keep bringing this event up, and up, and up. How is it that you missed, and continue to miss, the fact that I had — not one, but — two highly trained guard dogs in the vehicle with me that day? (Getting the Bulldogs into the vehicle was, probably, one of the reasons, 'Why' I forgot to holster my gun!)

Now, if you're going to insist upon characterizing me by this one event, ....... what about the OTHER UMPTEEN THOUSANDS OF DAYS when I DID NOT FORGET to holster a gun before leaving home; or the THOUSANDS OF DAYS when I carried TWO PISTOLS, a tac light, and large folding blade on my person! Shouldn't these days also be included in any honest analysis of my tactical behavior and ability? (They should, huh!) ;)

BEFORE you seek to place an indelible stamp on me as being either this way or that way, I think you should make more of an open and honest effort to be fair-minded — I really do!

Second and in all seriousness I categorically deny your standing to tell me about what it's like to be in a fight because you've never been there.

What? Let's get this straight: In over 15 years on internet gun forums I have never — EVEN ONCE — said that! YOU are the person who keeps trying to tag me with that label. (Which gives me a pretty good idea of just what you are, and are not actually capable of comprehending — OK!)

The very first gun fight I ever was involved in actually happened in the kitchen of a house I was renting with 2 other guys. One of my roomies had a crazy girlfriend and she started putting rounds through the wall. One went through the living room wall right over my head. I ran out the front door went to the neighbor's and called the cops. Zero training and I'm positive I was scared to death and had no way of knowing it was coming.

May I be blunt? YOU RAN FROM A GUNFIGHT! YOU RAN FROM A GUNFIGHT! Tut, tut, tut! :eek:

I'm amazed that you would admit to something like that on the internet; I really am! 'Mr. Smoke', (Or 'Mr. Eidolon' or whatever kid's shoot 'um up video game moniker you're calling yourself by now?) I NEVER ran from any kind of fight in my entire long life.

One of the salient points to that long post I wrote above is that the right frame-of-mind — the right psychological mental attitude — a gunman MUST HAVE AND MUST BE ABLE TO DEMONSTRATE is the savvy and willingness to run INTO A FIGHT — not away from it!

(What can I say? 'Some Bulldogs are 'dead game'; and others make good house pets.' Oh, well!) :p

In fact, my whole point in the above thread is that it is THE WILLINGNESS to deal with danger that SHOULD control and maintain a savvy gunman's physiology; a natural result of which would be an end of all of this IGF 'loss of fine motor control' nonsense.

(You just don't get it; do you! You're so busy trying to take, 'cheap shots' at me that you entirely miss the point of my arguments. Arguments which I am entirely willing and would prefer to discuss.)

Everyone has this idea in their head of what your gun fight is going to look like and it's never that. How many times do you think Adam Johnson trained for the "Take a one handed, 100 yard shot while holding two horses" scenario? How do you think carrying in condition three would have worked out for him?

'Speak for yourself, John!' Another one of the salient points I hoped to put across in the above long reply is that a gunman SHOULD be possessed of an accurate idea of BOTH 'How' and 'Why' he's going to do either one thing, or another when engaged in deadly conflict!

It's kind 'a sad! No matter what I attempt to offer in one of these discussions — Bingo! — there you are, following along with one inane criticism after another of 'What?' Me, personally, that's 'What!' While, at the same time, you simultaneously miss point, after point, after point of whatever I have to say!

Worse than this, you always seem to do your best to prevent anyone else from accurately considering whatever I have to offer; and really, Junior, that's not very fair of you — Not very fair at all. Even for an internet gun forum, you're way out-of-line.

(The flurry of insulting and confrontational PM's you used to send me before I turned the service off was contrary enough; but you don't seem to know when to stop.)

Yes this was an outlier a one in a million shot but what about the guy who is walking down the hall in his apartment and opens the door at the end of the hall and BAM there's 2 tweakers on the landing? How's that eagle eyed Situational Awareness working out for you now?

Whether you acknowledge it or not there are going to be times when you have to get your gun into action one handed. Carrying groceries, carrying your kids, walking dogs. I've gone through interviews in all those conditions and was lucky enough to fail the interview every time (so far)

There are going to be times when you turn a blind corner and there's a tweaker there or a bear (true story bro) and there was no possible way you could have known it was coming.

'Outlier!' Wow, that's a big word for you! What'd you do, discover the thesaurus? Look, instead of sticking with your, 'I can't' or 'I won't' mentality, why don't you start thinking about WHY YOU CAN, INSTEAD OF WHY YOU CANNOT!

You've got a gun, a blade, two arms, two hands, two legs, and two feet. Go ahead: Do something novel and really daring, and use them — Use them! If you had even half of the CQB experience you like to pretend to have, then, I wouldn't need to remind you that there are times (plenty of them) when simply carrying a pistol — in any condition — isn't going to help you to escape from trouble.

You seem to think that a fully charged pistol is the perfect answer to being attacked under any and all conditions; well ....... let me be the first to point out: You are entirely wrong about that! (Are you, by any chance, a civilian?)

I have a friend who woke up one night with her would be rapist on top of her. Granted she needed lessons in home security more than gun fighting ( both you and she could use a class in Lock Your Damn Door 101. Although I'm fairly certain she learned her lesson) but she did manage to kick dude's butt and chase him off.

Did you say that I could use a class in home security? Junior, I teach home security; and I've, also, been repeatedly told that I teach the subject well. The day when that huge filthy dirty street vagrant walked into our home he walked straight past a large sign by the front door that read: 'DO NOT ENTER!' 'ATTACK DOGS ON PREMISES!'

Yes, I was scared! I was only three days out of the hospital, on crutches at the time, and I couldn't walk. (Couldn't defend my home, either!) Nevertheless, because I was prepared for such an event that home intruder came within a small fraction of a second of losing his life to two of my largest Pit Bulldogs! I couldn't have helped him, either. Those Bulldogs KNEW our family was in danger; and, if they had made body contact, then they would have gone through that home invader like an 'angry chainsaw'!

Worse, with all the tubes and stuff they'd had down my throat in the hospital I didn't have the voice to call them off, either. As I said, our home invader almost lost his life; and it was my PRIOR ATTENTION to home security and other life-saving details that saved both my wife and I from what I suspect would have been serious harm that day.

An ambush is the worst possible scenario. If I' m prepared for that then I'm more than ready for the idiot who starts his attack run from 30 feet away.

You know what? I think you're 'all wet'; I really do. You're a 'poser'; and I would caution others to be very chary of your internet gun forum advice. (I'm not trying to be mean; I'm just, 'calling a spade, a spade' — OK!)

Final thought, I was a "dirt (which a capital S) magnet" for years. When I stopped treating the world in general as "less than" me I stopped being a "dirt magnet"

Ah, ‘Kemo Sabe’ what you mean, ‘was’? Furthermore, no you didn't! Neither would I describe 'the world' as being greater than you. To be perfectly frank I think you fit right in, rather nicely, with the current world situation: Angry, unreasonable, contentious, overbearing and spiteful of anyone other than your own magnificent self.

(How am I doing!) :p
 
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